A Christmas Story

[InterestedAtheist]

If you want to stake your belief system on a false dichotomy.....be my guest. To believe there is no alternative except to what you believe seems to me to be constrictive thought processes that are not willing or able to seriously consider other possibilities that create challenges and/or disrupt belief systems.

So, you still haven't read the article, and you still don't really know what we're talking about. Civilwar, do you think it is appropriate to engage me in conversation about something you do not understand?

And there is the flaw; when confronted with contradictory evidence of that 'I can't see the room' (which is true) you switch to the 'but if' scenario to construct a 'winning' argument.

Again, all you're showing is that you don't understand the significance of a hypothetical scenario. You said it was impossible to prove a negative. I showed that it was.

And you demonstrate that you do not understand the difference between feelings and experiences...not surprising.

But the "indwelling of the holy spirit" is nothing more than a feeling. Or, if I am wrong and it is something more, please feel free to demonstrate. Right now, it seems to me like all it is is a person feeling a really, really strong certainty that their idea is correct. If it's more than that, please explain.

Well, we have played your game long enough. Are you willing to play the game according to the same rules?

You have played the game and lost it.

So, what evidence has convinced you that God does not exist? Not what others have written, which are just opinions or what others have said which are also just opinions. Evidence that you yourself have seen/witnessed/personally experienced that convinces you that God does not exist?

Do I understand you to say that you think there is a way of proving that it is impossible for "God" to exist? If so, I do not know what it is. Do you feel that my admitting that I cannot disprove God is in some way evidence that He does exist?

 

[redleghunter]

You think you do. I think you're mistaken, because I don't think a God exists for you to know.

That’s quite a statement of faith. Or more accurately a leap of faith.

 

[redleghunter]

Sure they did. The lesson was quite short.

Therin lies the problem.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That’s quite a statement of faith. Or more accurately a leap of faith.

Not at all. It's based on many years of conversing with Christians who were unable to provide evidence that God exists. Therefore, the assumption that no such evidence exists appears to be a reasonable one.

 

[redleghunter]

I hope your evidence that Jesus and God exist is something more than the Bible saying they do?

Wait. You are not of the conspiracy theory that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist in history?

 

[redleghunter]

Not at all. It's based on many years of conversing with Christians who were unable to provide evidence that God exists. Therefore, the assumption that no such evidence exists appears to be a reasonable one.

My many years of conversing with atheists proves they must come up with their autonomous statement of faith and then can’t prove it.

The difference is I keep getting so many differing atheist faith statements, I can’t really call them all atheists.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Wait. You are not of the conspiracy theory that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist in history?

I have some sympathy for the idea. But no, when I asked you for evidence that Jesus exists, I meant right now, in Heaven, as one third of the Holy Trinity.
Do you have evidence that Jesus exists and is answering prayers?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

My many years of conversing with atheists proves they must come up with their autonomous statement of faith and then can’t prove it.

The difference is I keep getting so many differing atheist faith statements, I can’t really call them all atheists.

I think you'll find most of them are pretty similar, and I think most of the atheists on this forum would agree with me: "Do you have any evidence that God exists? Because, lacking any such evidence, we don't believe in Him."

I always liked the way The Atheist Experience - a radio show in Texas - would do it. A caller would come on, and they would cut straight to the chase: "What is your strongest argument for God's existence?"

 

[redleghunter]

I asked you for evidence that Jesus exists, I meant right now, in Heaven, as one third of the Holy Trinity.
Do you have evidence that Jesus exists and is answering prayers?

Absolutely. Since pulling me from sin and death Jesus has been faithful and true to every promise He has made. I found out what those actual promises are as He Himself spoke them and His apostles taught them.

 

[redleghunter]

I think you'll find most of them are pretty similar, and I think most of the atheists on this forum would agree with me: "Do you have any evidence that God exists? Because, lacking any such evidence, we don't believe in Him."

I always liked the way The Atheist Experience - a radio show in Texas - would do it. A caller would come on, and they would cut straight to the chase: "What is your strongest argument for God's existence?"

Actually the gripes against God and the Bible do differ.

What is your strongest argument against God’s existence?

 

[civilwarbuff]

So, you still haven't read the article, and you still don't really know what we're talking about. Civilwar, do you think it is appropriate to engage me in conversation about something you do not understand?

So your only answer is that I don't know what I am talking about.....yeah, that will always win a discussion.....sheesh

Again, all you're showing is that you don't understand the significance of a hypothetical scenario. You said it was impossible to prove a negative. I showed that it was.

Only by moving the goal posts....sorry, no one gives you a trophy for that......

But the "indwelling of the holy spirit" is nothing more than a feeling. Or, if I am wrong and it is something more, please feel free to demonstrate. Right now, it seems to me like all it is is a person feeling a really, really strong certainty that their idea is correct. If it's more than that, please explain.

Once more incorrect. I am hungry, or angry, or sleepy....those are feelings. I am a different person because of what happened to me....that is an experience. My guess is you have not had an experience so you don't know the difference.

Do I understand you to say that you think there is a way of proving that it is impossible for "God" to exist? If so, I do not know what it is. Do you feel that my admitting that I cannot disprove God is in some way evidence that He does exist?

Wait a second, you are the one claiming to be able to prove a negative and now you say you can't?.....so which is it? If God does not exist then prove it......

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Actually the gripes against God and the Bible do differ.

There's certainly plenty of arguments that can be deployed against Christianity, but if you ask someone why they are an atheist, it's basically because there's no reason to believe.

What is your strongest argument against God’s existence?

The lack of any evidence that He exists.

What is your strongest piece of evidence for God's existence?

 

[redleghunter]

I swear. Believers and their inability to deal with hypotheticals.

Hypothetically speaking? The hypothetical is just the strawman’s evil twin.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

So your only answer is that I don't know what I am talking about.....yeah, that will always win a discussion.....sheesh

Okay. Prove me wrong then. Explain to me what Euthyphro's Dilemma is, and why it has historically been considered to be a challenge to Christianity. You may want to consult the article I posted. Here it is again. Show that you know what you're talking about. Here is the article, for your reference.
Euthyphro's Dilemma | Stand to Reason

Only by moving the goal posts....sorry, no one gives you a trophy for that......

Do you know what hypotheticals are, and why they are useful?

Once more incorrect. I am hungry, or angry, or sleepy....those are feelings. I am a different person because of what happened to me....that is an experience. My guess is you have had an experience so you don't know the difference.

You're all over the place here, civilwarbuff. Let's ignore the fact that "hungry" is a categorically different meaning of the word feeling to the words "sleepy" and "angry", and just point out that if you do feel very sleepy or hungry or angry, you will have a different experience of life.
And now I'm going to remind you: you still haven't given any evidence of God's existence. Do you not have any?

Wait a second, you are the one claiming to be able to prove a negative and now you say you can't?.....so which is it? If God does not exist then prove it......

This is just funny.
You said that it was impossible to prove a negative.
This is of course incorrect. I took the time to explain why you are wrong.
The fact that it is possible to prove a negative does not mean that any and every negative can be proved. Of course, it can't. There are plenty of things we cannot prove.
These are basic concepts that you seem to have trouble understanding. I think it might be best to stop talking here before you dig yourself in further.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Okay. Prove me wrong then. Explain to me what Euthyphro's Dilemma is, and why it has historically been considered to be a challenge to Christianity. You may want to consult the article I posted. Here it is again. Show that you know what you're talking about. Here is the article, for your reference.

Sorry, not jumping thru your hoops.

Do you know what hypotheticals are, and why they are useful?

See above....

And now I'm going to remind you: you still haven't given any evidence of God's existence. Do you not have any?

I have, you just don't accept it. However, neither have you, after claiming you can disprove a negative, given any evidence that God does not exist.....still waiting for that.

This is just funny.
You said that it was impossible to prove a negative.
This is of course incorrect. I took the time to explain why you are wrong.
The fact that it is possible to prove a negative does not mean that any and every negative can be proved. Of course, it can't. There are plenty of things we cannot prove.
These are basic concepts that you seem to have trouble understanding. I think it might be best to stop talking here before you dig yourself in further.

Well, good at least you admit you have no evidence that God does not exist.....that's a start.....

 

[redleghunter]

There's certainly plenty of arguments that can be deployed against Christianity, but if you ask someone why they are an atheist, it's basically because there's no reason to believe.

Not arguments but gripes. It always starts with a “bad experience” apparently with Christians or God. They prayed for that special gift as a child did not get it and developed an anger towards God.

That’s why most people who claim to be atheist are actually anti-theist. Why would someone who does not care about God existing and having no power over their lives, spend 12 hours a day coming to a Christian site to trample on something they don’t believe in or has power over them? Why would they care?

The zeal shown by the anti-theists leads to potentially a few conclusions:

-They know all too well God exists and hate Him

-Did not have a prayer answered as a kid to stop a loved one who died they were close to. So concluded God is no value to them.

-Lived in a tribal Christian home in which they were abused and later identified their experience as usual for Christians.

-Or just bought into the propaganda of New Atheism and its circular and flawed logic.

There are more I’m sure as in the usual rebellious youth who believe everything they should have they should actually get. The entitlement mentality. That God needs to be my cosmic sugar daddy and he better have me on speaker phone.

The lack of any evidence that He exists.

Ah so you have the evidence of every person who ever lived wired into your brainhousing unit?

I’ve read and studied the Bible cover to cover yearly for a very long time now.

One theme which rings true throughout is a humble heart is heard.

What is your strongest piece of evidence for God's existence?

I’m good it seems you are not.

What would convince you of a Creator God Who saves the very people He created but they rebelled against Him?

Since it seems you like hypotheticals, what if God visited you in your living room, Proclaimed He was God, answered all your hypocritical questions and proved in your presence by miracles you asked for which clearly were beyond the material world could produce. And then that God says “follow me.”


Would you follow this God who proved all in your presence?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Lol. Hey you are asking Christians concretely respond to your hypotheticals.

Why not stick to the material and concrete which you only believe in and dispense with the loaded hypotheticals?

Yeah, but how else they gonna force you to answer their questions in the way they want? They need all the help they can get.....LOL

 

[Tone]

Okay.
Definition of EXIST
"To have real being, whether material or spiritual".
Can you give evidence to show that God actually exists?

Okay, so I presented my argument for a personal and spiritual encounter with the resurrected Messiah, the very one spoken about in the Bible, as evidence, but you don't accept personal testimony of mystical/spiritual events as evidence, even though your definition of existence includes this spiritual aspect.

Oh, don't worry about what I think. Just worry about what you think, and whether or not you have evidence to show it is true.

I've shared what I think, and feel, and experience, and imagine, etc....No worries necessary.

I see. So how exactly did this "meeting" with God take place?

It took place as orchestrated by a Loving Creator, within the heavenly realms, i.e., in the eternal:

2 Corinthians 4
"18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

Yes, I was in a temporal place at the time...in a church in Hawthorne California. The gospel was being preached:

Romans 10
"17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

I had heard it before as I was raised having to go to the dreaded church service every Sunday. But, this time I really heard it with spiritual ears and I was struck with the truth of it. It was as if there was something more than just the commonplace church service going on...and it was more than just some old guy speaking up on stage...there was power. I can only describe it as a divine appointment where the many aspects of my being coalesced into this meeting, because this is what it was...it was the Messiah Who was present and Who opened my ears even as He gave sight to the blind and raised from the dead. This is what being born again is...it is a resurrection from a mere temporal (passing) existence into the eternal (heavenly realms). This is how I know He is real, because I died with Him and I have arisen with Him as well. It is that same power that I experienced in that church service and many times after...and even now...the same power that He displayed when He walked the earth. It is the Holy Breath of Yahweh (the Creator)...the Holy Spirit.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry, not jumping thru your hoops.

See above....

I have, you just don't accept it. However, neither have you, after claiming you can disprove a negative, given any evidence that God does not exist.....still waiting for that.

Well, good at least you admit you have no evidence that God does not exist.....that's a start.....

Alright. Thanks for your time, civilwarbuff. I'm afraid this just isn't worth doing any more. You just don't understand enough to be able to talk about, and I don't have the patience to educate you.
Would you like the last word?

 

[redleghunter]

Okay. Prove me wrong then. Explain to me what Euthyphro's Dilemma is, and why it has historically been considered to be a challenge to Christianity. You may want to consult the article I posted. Here it is again. Show that you know what you're talking about. Here is the article, for your reference.
Euthyphro's Dilemma | Stand to Reason

Wow. One of the largest examples of a preconceived false dichotomy.

Whoever wrote that post made Russell look like an imbecile.

Then compounded on assertions and misrepresentations of the Bible.

Really the best advice I can give is you actually read the Bible cover to cover a few times before peddling this sophistry past guys like me who has studied both sides of the equation for years.

You will sucker a few maybe many here.