A Christmas Story

[InterestedAtheist]

From the Cross Examined blog.
Jesus and Santa: a Parable on How We Dismiss Evidence

It was early December, and little Jerry had begun to doubt the existence of Santa Claus. He made his case to his younger brother Scott.
“I don’t think Santa is real. I think it’s just Mom and Dad buying us presents,” Jerry said.
“Prove it,” Scott said.
“Okay, why are there all those Santas on the street corners ringing for money? How can Santa be at all those stores at once?"
“They’re not the real Santa, just his helpers,” Scott said. “And maybe they’re just testing us to see if we’ll still believe. I’m going to believe, because if you don’t, you don’t get presents.”
“But I recognized one of them—it was the father of one of my friends.”
“Then those are just ordinary people imitating Santa, raising money for a good cause. Anyway, I’ve seen Santa on TV at Thanksgiving—everyone has.”

Jerry sees that he’s not making any progress, so he gives up. On Christmas afternoon, he’s alone with Scott and tries again. “Remember that video game that you told Mom about and then you forgot to tell Santa?” Jerry said. “But you got it anyway. Mom must’ve bought it and written on the package that it came from Santa.”
“Mom just told Santa,” Scott said.
“Then tell me this: how can Santa get around the world in one night?”
“My friends all say that Santa is real. Anyway, Santa has magic. And the cookies we leave out for Santa are always gone on Christmas morning.”
“With the Junior Detective kit that I got this morning, I dusted the cookie plate for fingerprints, and they were Mom’s.”
“So what? Mom set out the plate, and Santa wears gloves.”

Jerry gives up for the year. On Christmas afternoon the next year, he tries again. “Lots of the older kids don’t believe in Santa. They say that their presents only come from their parents.”
“Sure,” Scott said. “Santa only gives presents to those who still believe in him.”
“A few months ago, I was snooping in Dad’s sock drawer, and I found every letter we ever wrote to Santa.”
“Why not? Santa didn’t need them anymore and each year just gives them to Mom and Dad for keepsakes.”
“The only fingerprints on our presents were Mom’s or Dad’s.”
“Mom and Dad always get up early on Christmas. They could’ve rearranged them.”
“Last week, I found all our presents hidden in a corner in the attic.” Jerry pawed through some of the torn wrapping paper. “I wrote my initials on the bottom of each package. And look—here they are. That proves that Santa didn’t bring them here last night.”
“I asked Mom, and she said that Santa is real. Anyway, how do I know you didn’t write your initials on the wrapping paper this morning?”

Like little Scott, if you’re determined to believe something, you can rationalize away any unwelcome evidence. (By rationalize, I mean taking an idea as fact and then selecting or interpreting all relevant evidence to make it support that immutable given.)

Christians rationalize, too. They rationalize away contradictions in the Bible, the oddity of a hidden God, or why so much bad happens to the people God loves. They can find a dozen reasons why a particular prayer wasn’t answered, even though the Bible promises, “Ask and ye shall receive.” But the Christian will say that they’re simply defending the truth—they’re not rationalizing; they’re right.

In five minutes we can see flaws in others that we don’t see in ourselves in a lifetime. Perhaps this episode with Jerry and Scott will encourage us to see our own rationalizations.

 

[public hermit]

Thank you for your contributions to this forum and your genuine concern for clear, rational thinking. I hope you have a peaceful holiday with friends and family and a prosperous new year.

 

[Not David]

I will recommend any Christian to avoid angering themselves this Christmas Eve with fallacious atheist arguments.

Have a merry day to you all!

 

[thomas_t]

Hi Interested,
I'm Thomas, new to the section here.
Merry Christmas!

In my opinion, there are no contradictions in the Bible.
Bad things happen to believers and non-believers alike. But God can turn many bad things into good ones.

So let's tackle some of what you may call contradictions (as laid out in your signature line):
"Thinking of questions that Christians can't answer...
- Does God command something because it is good, or is it good because God commands it?
- Can you prove that Santa does not exist?
- Why don't prayers ever have any effect?"

The first question I can't answer, since I'm no philosopher.
The second one... No. But Santa is not relevant.
The last question: they do! In my life, prayers have been answered.

Thomas

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I will recommend any Christian to avoid angering themselves this Christmas Eve with fallacious atheist arguments.

Have a merry day to you all!

Fallacious? In what way?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Thank you for your contributions to this forum and your genuine concern for clear, rational thinking. I hope you have a peaceful holiday with friends and family and a prosperous new year.

Thank you. You too!

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm going to start-up santaforums.com so I won't need to listen to all this mean talk about Santa Claus

 

[NBB]

lol, the problem with this would be if 'santa' is actually visiting you and giving you presents like God does with his childs. But you wouldn't believe would you.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hello Thomas. Nice to meet you, and Merry Christmas!

In my opinion, there are no contradictions in the Bible.
Bad things happen to believers and non-believers alike. But God can turn many bad things into good ones.

Well now, in my experience there are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, but these are only a problem for Christians who say there are none and can be none. More liberal Christians just say, well, so what if a word was copied wrong ten centuries ago? It doesn't harm God's message. I tend to agree with them. The "contradictions" in my signature are just issues I feel Christianity should be able to address - and would be able to if God were real - but can't. Because...well, you know.

So let's tackle some of what you may call contradictions (as laid out in your signature line):

Sure thing!

The first question I can't answer, since I'm no philosopher.

Philosophers haven't been able to answer it either, although I have seen some attempts on these forums. But it's an interesting question to consider, isn't it? How does God know what goodness is?

The second one... No. But Santa is not relevant.

I think Santa is highly relevant, myself. It's an excellent model of how religious people think, in essence.

The last question: they do! In my life, prayers have been answered.

Ah! Interesting. And what are these prayers of yours that have been answered?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

lol, the problem with this would be if 'santa' is actually visiting you and giving you presents like God does with his childs. But you wouldn't believe would you.

God gives His children presents? And how is that exactly?
And of course Santa exists. As you can see from my signature, a number of people have tried to disprove his existence, but they were not successful. All I did was use the arguments I learned on Christian Forums, and it was easy to maintain my belief in Santa.

 

[NBB]

God gives His children presents? And how is that exactly?
And of course Santa exists. As you can see from my signature, a number of people have tried to disprove his existence, but they were not successful. All I did was use the arguments I learned on Christian Forums, and it was easy to maintain my belief in Santa.

You can get his presence for one, or water of life, or feel his love, and is great having God looking up for you life and future, but the bible says this is crazyness to unbelievers, and you cannot understand it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You can get his presence for one, or water of life, or feel his love, and is great having God looking up for you life and future, but the bible says this is crazyness to unbelievers, and you cannot understand it.

In other words, what you're saying is:
"Of course I can explain what I mean. Just not to you. It all makes perfect sense to me, though, I assure you!"

 

[Rodan6]

To find God, one has to look for Him. An open sincerity is required as well.
You can't find God in a book written by men. God has never written anything. While the writers of scripture were sincere, a human cannot suddenly obtain perfection in ability or thought. It is fact, therefore, that the Bible features many contradictions and it's certainly logical that this is so.

But the contradictions don't prove God doesn't exist, they only prove that humans are humans--that they are hardly perfect beings.

Agnostics and even atheists can find God if they are willing to accept that they will not be able to prove their findings to others. Anyone is capable of experiencing convincing, personal proof. But for many, this is not enough. Some are not willing to learn the truth unless the evidence they discover can be shared with others. As for me, (I was once agnostic) I really don't care what others think. I have been willing to trust in my own ability to judge what I have seen and heard for myself. I am a seeker of truth and I shall continue to seek truth wherever I can find it as long as I breathe. The pursuit of truth is a truly personal one unless one chooses to reject all evidence that cannot be communicated to others.

 

[civilwarbuff]

1 Corinthians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[thomas_t]

Nice to meet you, too, Atheist!

More liberal Christians just say, well, so what if a word was copied wrong ten centuries ago?

Yeah, they exist and they are quite numerous here. to all.
But I believe, God made it possible that either every word was copied right or all the changes in the text happened because God so wanted it. A friend of mine studies theology from a mainline Protestant point of view and in Germany they "find" all kinds of flaws/ contradictions in the Bible… but I stayed with my standpoint.
Ten centuries only you say? Many correct Bible versions have been around at that time, already, I thought?

And what are these prayers of yours that have been answered?

I recall having had a tooth problem that instantly went away when I prayed. But that was my last prayer in this sense, because I think health problems may have a meaning and God allowed this to happen to me to begin with. Now I try to change my life style the moment I discover a problem.

It's an excellent model of how religious people think, in essence.

to give an example, some Christians think they have to apologize to the creator when they do harm to the creation, for instance… I mean the one you can't disprove .

How does God know what goodness is?

For me, it suffices to think that God knows. I think he is real.
Thomas

 

[Ophiolite]

I recall having had a tooth problem that instantly went away when I prayed.

I recall having a tooth problem that went away the instant the police pulled me over for speeding. Events occur independent of prayer. Correlation is not causation.

Every day hundreds (many hundreds?) of people die despite fervent prayers by friends, relatives, neighbours and the soon to be deceased themselves. The explanation for these failures of prayer? Survival was not part of God's plan seems to be commonest explanation. For many of us this is wholly unconvincing, rather than holy convincing.

That said, I hope those of you who put your faith in prayer find few occasions where prayer seems necessary and that those prayers will all seem to be answered.

 

[Silmarien]

Every day hundreds (many hundreds?) of people die despite fervent prayers by friends, relatives, neighbours and the soon to be deceased themselves. The explanation for these failures of prayer? Survival was not part of God's plan seems to be commonest explanation. For many of us this is wholly unconvincing, rather than holy convincing.

I think it's worth remembering that in the Early Church, it was not uncommon for people to be praying for the opportunity to martyr themselves, rather than for deliverance from death. Our expectations have shifted somewhat, but there's a reason that people like Saint Thérèse of Lisieux are venerated. Christianity's approach to suffering and death is much stranger and more uncomfortable than praying for deliverance, and if it doesn't happen, it just wasn't in the cards.

That said, I hope those of you who put your faith in prayer find few occasions where prayer seems necessary and that those prayers will all seem to be answered.

Thank you.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Nice to meet you, too, Atheist!

Yeah, they exist and they are quite numerous here. to all.
But I believe, God made it possible that either every word was copied right or all the changes in the text happened because God so wanted it. A friend of mine studies theology from a mainline Protestant point of view and in Germany they "find" all kinds of flaws/ contradictions in the Bible… but I stayed with my standpoint.
Ten centuries only you say? Many correct Bible versions have been around at that time, already, I thought?

I recall having had a tooth problem that instantly went away when I prayed. But that was my last prayer in this sense, because I think health problems may have a meaning and God allowed this to happen to me to begin with. Now I try to change my life style the moment I discover a problem.

to give an example, some Christians think they have to apologize to the creator when they do harm to the creation, for instance… I mean the one you can't disprove .

For me, it suffices to think that God knows. I think he is real.
Thomas

The idea that the Bible contains no errors is indefensible. There is no Bible on earth that I can pick up and naively read without coming away believing something that is false. It is not a standalone book and instead requires an index, asterisks, or some kind of correction.

 

[thomas_t]

The idea that the Bible contains no errors is indefensible.

Hi Nihilist, nice to meet you, too.
I think this idea is defendable and I think we will have the opportunity to discuss some of the purported errors.
But why do you think the Bible requiring an index is a weakness? I'm convinced… the important things speak for themselves and if you want to know more you ask the index.
The important things - Jesus's teachings concerning salvation, for example - can be read the way they are written, in my opinion.
Thomas

 

[InterestedAtheist]

To find God, one has to look for Him. An open sincerity is required as well.

To find something you have to look for it? Certainly.
But "open sincerity" - what does this mean? A strange way of putting it. Of course, I am sincere in saying I want to know the truth, and would like to know if God is real. But there's a difference between saying "I will look at the evidence and follow what it means" and "I know what the truth is and will now go looking for evidence to support my ideas."

You can't find God in a book written by men. God has never written anything. While the writers of scripture were sincere, a human cannot suddenly obtain perfection in ability or thought. It is fact, therefore, that the Bible features many contradictions and it's certainly logical that this is so. But the contradictions don't prove God doesn't exist, they only prove that humans are humans--that they are hardly perfect beings.

But you could find evidence of God in a book written by people, especially if it was inspired by God. And if a book was inspired by God - even if through the filter of human minds - you would expect it to be expectional. It should have beautiful, inspiring poetry. It should contain truths impossible for humans to have at that time. It should be an amazingly written book. It should be immediately obvious to all that God exists. And, of course, the Bible is nothing of the sort. It loks like what it almost certainly is - a collection of disparate writings by people making up stories about the world.

Agnostics and even atheists can find God if they are willing to accept that they will not be able to prove their findings to others.

Prove? Proof, as they say, is for mathematics and alcohol. Evidence is what we're looking for. It's honest of you to admit that there is no evidence for God, but seeing as we're in the "Christian Apologetics" forum it puts you in a pretty weak position.

Anyone is capable of experiencing convincing, personal proof.

A rather suspicious way of putting it. Perhaps what you meant was "There is proof, and anyone can find it if they look."
Saying, "Anyone is capable of experiencing convincing personal proof" - well, that's true. Anyone is capable of deluding themselves into thinking they have found the truth. Humans are really good at imagining things.

But for many, this is not enough. Some are not willing to learn the truth unless the evidence they discover can be shared with others.

Poisoning the well fallacy. Do you have proof, or evidence? Or does is just exist inside your own mind?

As for me, (I was once agnostic) I really don't care what others think.

Well, that would make sense, if you don't have any evidence for God being real.

I have been willing to trust in my own ability to judge what I have seen and heard for myself. I am a seeker of truth and I shall continue to seek truth wherever I can find it as long as I breathe. The pursuit of truth is a truly personal one unless one chooses to reject all evidence that cannot be communicated to others.

Nonsense. Pure nonsense. What is, is. Evidence may be hard to find, but if God exists then, at least in theory, He is discoverable. If you have nothing to say on this, then all you're doing is preaching on a debating forum.