A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

[Davy]

Sorry, NOT added, just understanding. Did I SAY it was "the 7th trumpet?" I did not. I said that the 7th trumpet would be Michael's SIGNAL.

The only signal for war involving Michael written of in God's Word is when Michael makes a stand against Satan in Heaven involving the war of Revelation 12:7-9.

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That is NOT 7th Trumpet timing. It is 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, which is about the time of God's two witnesses in Jerusalem who prophesy for 1260 days (i.e., the tribulation time at the end of this world).

 

[Davy]

Hmmm. It seems we get a lot of "fiction" here on these threads.

Sure do! With those who keep trying to prove the pre-trib rapture theory, which of course is major fiction! one can buy loads of it with Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey's books and movies!

 

[iamlamad]

The only signal for war involving Michael written of in God's Word is when Michael makes a stand against Satan in Heaven involving the war of Revelation 12:7-9.

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That is NOT 7th Trumpet timing. It is 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, which is about the time of God's two witnesses in Jerusalem who prophesy for 1260 days (i.e., the tribulation time at the end of this world).

I really wonder about your bible. In my bible, the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11, ONE CHAPTER (but only seconds in time) before chapter 12 and the war in heaven. Again, my friend, do you pay ANY attention to time?
Did you ever wonder WHY Michael was allowed to go to war against Satan at that time, the midpoint of the week, and not before? Did you ever ask God?

WHY at the 7th trumpet were the kingdoms of earth taken from Satan and given to Jesus? WHY at that time? Did you ever ask God? Well I DID ask.

I could ask another question: WHY has God allowed Satan to reign as god of this world for so long?

 

[iamlamad]

Sure do! With those who keep trying to prove the pre-trib rapture theory, which of course is major fiction! one can buy loads of it with Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey's books and movies!

Good try, but pretrib is scriptural. I cannot say that for postrib or prewrath.

 

[Davy]

I really wonder about your bible. In my bible, the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11, ONE CHAPTER (but only seconds in time) before chapter 12 and the war in heaven. Again, my friend, do you pay ANY attention to time?
Did you ever wonder WHY Michael was allowed to go to war against Satan at that time, the midpoint of the week, and not before? Did you ever ask God?

WHY at the 7th trumpet were the kingdoms of earth taken from Satan and given to Jesus? WHY at that time? Did you ever ask God? Well I DID ask.

I could ask another question: WHY has God allowed Satan to reign as god of this world for so long?

Jesus doesn't return until the "last trump", which is the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Revelation 11. I know the pre-trib rapture school instead teaches you the falsehood that Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 is not the same trumpet as the 7th Trumpet, but that's just their false teaching, the reason being this...

In BOTH 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" and in 1 Thess.4 with the "trump of God", Paul is showing the resurrection happening. That resurrection ONLY happens on the LAST DAY of this world. I think you well know this, but instead choose to accept what they say instead of what God's Word says on that.

 

[Davy]

Good try, but pretrib is scriptural. I cannot say that for postrib or prewrath.

You certainly haven't been able to prove it from Scripture, unless you call Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye's books and movies Scripture, when in reality they are just fiction sources.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus doesn't return until the "last trump", which is the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Revelation 11. I know the pre-trib rapture school instead teaches you the falsehood that Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 is not the same trumpet as the 7th Trumpet, but that's just their false teaching, the reason being this...

In BOTH 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" and in 1 Thess.4 with the "trump of God", Paul is showing the resurrection happening. That resurrection ONLY happens on the LAST DAY of this world. I think you well know this, but instead choose to accept what they say instead of what God's Word says on that.

What you are missing: the 7th trumpet is, indeed, the last of THAT SERIES - but Paul's "last trump" is a complete OTHER and DIFFERENT series. Of course, for those who ignore any kind of timing or chronology in Revelation, anything goes.

Paul's last trump: matches Paul's rapture in 1 Thes. Comes just before wrath & just before the 6th seal Rapture is NOT judgment.

John's 7th trumpet: NO catching up. NO rapture. No resurrections. Only a legal transfer of earth from Satan to Jesus Christ. It is a totally different series of trumps sounded by angels for judgment. All seven trumpets are JUDGMENT.

Just so you know, Paul says NOTHING ABOUT the end of the world in 1 Thes. 4 or 2nd Thes.2. These chapters are about his gathering or rapture. I MOST CERTAINLY don't know or even believe that the 7th trumpet or Paul's rapture ends the world. I know the 1000 year reign of Christ follows. It seems you DON'T know this.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus doesn't return until the "last trump", which is the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Revelation 11. I know the pre-trib rapture school instead teaches you the falsehood that Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 is not the same trumpet as the 7th Trumpet, but that's just their false teaching, the reason being this...

In BOTH 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" and in 1 Thess.4 with the "trump of God", Paul is showing the resurrection happening. That resurrection ONLY happens on the LAST DAY of this world. I think you well know this, but instead choose to accept what they say instead of what God's Word says on that.

As long as you think Paul's "last trump" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation, you will be in error about many things in Revelation. And I will continue to disagree with many of your posts.

 

[Adamina]

Andrewn said: ↑
As you know my views are Amil. And I agree that the fate of the satan and the beast empires are tied together. But I understand the 42 months of Rev 12 as taking place in the beginning of the Millennium. This is also in agreement with most scholars who see Nero Caesar as a manifestation of the Beast.

Do you agree that this a reasonable alternative view?

Of course it is an alternative Amil position. It would be the Preterist understanding of it. Amil scholars are split on it. Most Idealist Amils see this relating to the time before the end. I just see it as problematic, especially when you look at the different recaps, compare the language and note that all show the kingdom of darkness having a short season at the end just prior to the second coming to oppose and surround the saints of God. It looks to me as Satan's last throw. It also makes sense.

I have never heard the term "Idealist Amil".
CF defines "Idealism", "Amill" and "Partial Preterism" in the SoP here.
Idealism/Amill/Partial Preterism are all appealing to me.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

• Idealism:
  
• (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.
• Partial Preterism:
  
• Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  
• The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Millennialism:

• Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
• Premillennialism: is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
• Postmillennialism: is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper
• =======================================

Google search on that view. It appears there is also an "Partial Preterist Idealist" view.....

idealist amillennialism - Google Search
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Idealism – Amillennialism
amillennialism.wordpress.com › tag › idealism
Nov 1, 2014 - Posts about Idealism written by Shawn McGrath. ... with fresh resources that will help you understand and appreciate Amillennial eschatology.

Website UpdatesAmillennialism, Book of Revelation, Charts, Dean Davis, Eschatology, Idealism, Issues ETC, Prophecy, Sam Waldron
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Revelation Symposium
February 7, 2015Shawn McGrathLeave a comment

We just added a new video debate in our debate section on the understanding of the book of Revelation. This symposium was put together by American Vision and the debaters are none other than Jim Hamilton (futurist), Gary Demar (Partial Preterist) & Sam Waldron (Idealist)

Book of Revelation Amillennialism, Book of Revelation, futurist, Gary Demar, Idealist, Jim Hamilton, partial preterist, Postmillennialism, Premillennialism, Sam Waldron

 

[Davy]

As long as you think Paul's "last trump" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation, you will be in error about many things in Revelation. And I will continue to disagree with many of your posts.

Once again, your are backwards in God's Holy Writ...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Paul's "last trump" event and that "trump of God" event are BOTH THE SAME EVENT.

 

[keras]

Once again, your are backwards in God's Holy Writ...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Paul's "last trump" event and that "trump of God" event are BOTH THE SAME EVENT.

But they are not the same event at all.
Proved by how Death will be no more after the dead are raised to stand before God. Rev 20:11-15
The 1 Thess 4:17 prophecy is paralleled by Matthew 24:31; at the Return of Jesus.

 

[claninja]

Your theory is right, but your timing is 2000 years off. Revelation 12 timing is seconds after the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week.

Revelation 12 is associated with the ascension of Christ, which occurred 2,000 years ago. It is at the ascension of Christ that the woman was nourished for 1,260 days.

revelation 12:5-6 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

It is at the ascension of Christ that satan was cast out.

John 12:21-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

 

[Davy]

But they are not the same event at all.
Proved by how Death will be no more after the dead are raised to stand before God. Rev 20:11-15
The 1 Thess 4:17 prophecy is paralleled by Matthew 24:31; at the Return of Jesus.

Yet they are, simply because the 'resurrection' is mentioned happening in both... examples. Can't get any more plain than that.

 

[keras]

Yet they are, simply because the 'resurrection' is mentioned happening in both... examples. Can't get any more plain than that.

A very tenuous and faulty argument.
We know there have been other resurrections and there will be again.
The resurrection of the Trib martyrs, Revelation 20:4, will happen when Jesus Returns.
The resurrection of ALL the dead happens 1000 years later; at the GWT Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is the transformation of those found worthy, their names found in the Book of Life, changed into immortal bodies.

 

[Davy]

A very tenuous and faulty argument.
We know there have been other resurrections and there will be again.
The resurrection of the Trib martyrs, Revelation 20:4, will happen when Jesus Returns.
The resurrection of ALL the dead happens 1000 years later; at the GWT Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is the transformation of those found worthy, their names found in the Book of Life, changed into immortal bodies.

Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 when the resurrection of the dead will occur, i.e., on the day of His return...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

BOTH resurrection types happen at the same time on the day of Christ's coming. That is what the John 5:28-29 Scripture shows, as written.

The idea that the wicked dead are not resurrected until the 1,000 years is over is a doctrine of men. Those who believe that choose to DISREGARD that John 5:28-29 Scripture, showing they don't understand the Rev.20 events about the "dead" in that future time when Jesus returns.

Understanding this ought to actually be easy, especially for those who have truly read the OT prophets, because there are many OT Scriptures about the continued existence of the wicked after Christ's return, even being required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts (per Zechariah 14). Even Rev.3:9 shows the wicked "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect during that time. So how is it those wicked aren't still dead in graves during that Millennial timing? It's because of God having BLINDED those away from the simplicity of His Word.

 

[keras]

Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 when the resurrection of the dead will occur, i.e., on the day of His return..

Revelation 20:4 shows that only the Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Jesus Return.
1 Thess 4:16, does not say; all the dead. ONLY at the GWT Judgement will all the dead rise.

That there will be those who fall from allegiance to Jesus during the Millennium, is shown by how Satan is able to seduce enough to make an army. Revelation 20:7-10

 

[Davy]

Revelation 20:4 shows that only the Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Jesus Return.
1 Thess 4:16, does not say; all the dead. ONLY at the GWT Judgement will all the dead rise.

That there will be those who fall from allegiance to Jesus during the Millennium, is shown by how Satan is able to seduce enough to make an army. Revelation 20:7-10

And thus you default to a totally separate subject, showing like I said, that you really don't understand what that future "thousand years" is about, and nor with what kind of existence it will be.

 

[keras]

And thus you default to a totally separate subject, showing like I said, that you really don't understand what that future "thousand years" is about, and nor with what kind of existence it will be.

I default? How?
We were discussing the future Millennium.

It seems that you have the scripturally unsupportable belief that all Christians will be made immortal when Jesus Returns. It is your fault and diversion to change the discussion to accusations against me.

Like most people today, you have been taught things that are not scriptural. You think you have it right, but you don't; the 'wolves in the flock' have deceived you and millions, to your discredit.
You have choices when you are shown that what you believe is not correct:

1/ Treat the new information with ignore.
2/ Just carry on as before, with people who believe as you do.
3/ Abuse and character assassinate the person who challenges your belief.
4/ Change your beliefs. Doing this will save a lot of difficulty later, as what you believed doesn't happen.

Also; on the Day that everyone stands before God, on His Great White Throne, He may ask: Why did you not carefully read what I gave you in the Bible?