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Frisky Wren

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A man goes through through the rationalization process when he takes up the profession. After that, he goes through the training to make it reflexive...and even then, each occasion involves a quick and abbreviated version of the same process, which by training almost seems instantaneous...but it isn't.

In operation, some of those conditions have been pre-determined for him by virtue of the context: In a combat zone or responding to an "active shooter" call--that resolves much of the moral conditions of the choice to be made. Then the rest come as he observes and judges the situation: Who is doing what to whom? And he will likely still need a final "pull the trigger" clue, such as "the kid picked up the rifle" or the clench of teeth, flicker of the eyes, or some other action that he has set as the final decision-making event before the irrevocable act of pulling the trigger.

It's never truly innate, and any man who has not gone through the moral rationalization at some point before is no different from a trained attack dog.



Show proof that choosing a lesser evil unless explicitly directed by the voice of God is a righteous act. Now, I did show scripture indicating that God does, indeed, know who is guilty of creating the "no righteous option" situation, but that does not transform "lesser evil" into "righteous act," it only suggests God will properly assign the guilt.

I can't help you. I don't believe saving a life from someone wanting to take it when tasked to that duty is a lesser evil. Someone would have to show the scripture where God said when encountering someone intent on taking an innocents life stand by and let it be.

I feel sorry for any soldier who feels guilty for surviving in combat so as to come back to their family. I feel sorry for any soldier that feels guilty for killing those who were dedicated to killing them. I feel sorry for any soldier that didn't know there were military chaplains serving in the military so as to demonstrate God's appointed are there blessing the cause of righteousness that defends a nation and a people from those who would happily kill them in the name of whatever compels them to act.

That's why I can't show you what you ask for. Because it was Gandhi that said the Jews would have been better off jumping from cliffs or offering their throats to the knives of the Nazi's rather than fight back. He was a Hindu who's in Hell now. Our God never inspired any such scripture to match that which Gandhi believed.
Numbers 31:3
So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.


1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
 
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Theatreguy18

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So, the life of a serial killer is equal to the life of Alexander Fleming. . .:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If Alexander Fleming had never been born and if Ted Bundy had never been born, as well, that's a wash. . .
Allow me to quote Dumbledore " my dear Harry people are not broken between Heros and villian see both have the ability to do good or evil with their life , it is our chocies that say who we are far more than our abilities "
 
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dougangel

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I don't love my enemies.
That insults the people I know that are worthy of my love. To put them in the same embrace as those who would have us dead? Not likely.

Christ like. Jesus = God. The same yesterday, today, and forever. God didn't love his enemies. Neither do I.

You are totally dismissing what Jesus said then.
The character of God is the same of course. But because the 1st covenant agreement was broken by the ancient Israelite Jesus made a new covenant agreement with Israel and man kind. It's different to the Old testament.
 
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dougangel

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Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

"For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).

Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is possibly true of the two swords. This interpretation of clarification is supported by Matt. 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." As seen in this article on Matt. 10:34, in context he does not mean a physical sword that cuts up and bloodies the family, but a spiritual and moral one that may divide it up nonphysically. And it is precisely Luke who clarifies Jesus’ meaning of "sword" as nonliteral, in the two parallel passages of Matt. 10:34 and Luke 12:51. If Luke does this in 12:51, then why would he not shift slightly the meaning of "sword" in 22:36-38?
So the swords were to fulfil prophecy Jesus said he had not come for a rebellion.
 
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dougangel

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Numbers 31:3
So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Before the cross there was a theocracy. We are not under Old testament scripture anymore after the cross.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

That doesn't mean we should become hit-men or prostitutes to get employment.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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He has made the decision to do that when he goes through is sniper training and taking pay.

I think the real question is here.
Should Christians repay evil for evil ?
I know what the gospels say about that.

Nor repaying evil for evil is instruction on interpersonal relationships.

Do you think one should stand by and watch someone being raped, and not "repay evil for evil"? Do you think that the state should no prosecute crimes?
 
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amariselle

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I think you're confused. There are a couple of people here who seem to think you can't shoot that terrorist in the hypothetical I posted in order to save the little girl and be a Christian. That's not true of course. But they have a really hard time defending their advocacy for inaction when their advocacy gets that hypothetical little precious girls throat cut.

Now, as to you. I had no idea you were speaking of personal experience when you posted your other remarks. And frankly it is none of my business.
The point of my question that you chose to respond to was to address those who seem to think you can't be a soldier in order to defend a country or a people and be a Christian too. That all lives matter no matter what. Of course that's bullnuts.
Even God proved that.

My question in that hypothetical was really simple. And you chose to go through a hefty list of thought processes before you responded to the simple question. Do you pull the trigger or don't you?

A sniper knows it is a split second decision when a target escalates to action against an innocent civilian. They pull the trigger. They don't go through a laundry list of stuff like you laid out, consult with their god, commit to prayer and serious introspection while watching that target through that scope. It's innate at that point. It's training. It's reflex. It's action.

You pull the trigger.

Leave your list for later. You just saved a little girl from a terrorist with a knife to her throat.
Does God judge that? The dead terrorist will sure find out he does. As for that sniper I would say God would say, well done my good and faithful servant.

When evil asks us to act in order to save the innocent we choose what we will serve. Rhetoric? Or righteousness.

I was raised in a family that knows what it is to serve. And being there's a restriction on women being snipers in the military my hypothetical answer is really easy. I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. Because a terrorist with a knife to a baby girls throat asks to be dead.

And for that precious baby girl's sake I'd be happy to oblige.

I don't love my enemies.
That insults the people I know that are worthy of my love. To put them in the same embrace as those who would have us dead? Not likely.

Christ like. Jesus = God. The same yesterday, today, and forever. God didn't love his enemies. Neither do I.
"You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

Also, God did/does indeed love His enemies.

Jesus prayed for those who were crucifying Him.

"When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." (Luke 23:33-34)

And Paul writes about how Christ died for sinners, enemies of God. (Which is every single one of us)

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:6-11)

"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because ofg your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (Colossians 1:21-23)

We were ALL enemies of God, and yet He loved us, and sent His Son to die for us and reconcile us to Himself.
 
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mikpat

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There was a 'sniper movie' where a woman, maybe the mother, walks out towards an American tank——-the mother pushes her young daughter,,10 or 11, towards the the tank. The daughter is loaded with hi explosives, walking alone towards the tank———the sniper knows the child is wired———-
 
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fat wee robin

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Apparently, Rihanna was in Nice, France yesterday but she is safe.
Media makes it important to tell us that even tho we aint even know she was there
initially, so yes, Rihannas life matters more than the French victims
Since I am in France ,I do not know who rihanna is ,but the name sounds like I can live without knowing .o_O
 
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Frisky Wren

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There was a 'sniper movie' where a woman, maybe the mother, walks out towards an American tank——-the mother pushes her young daughter,,10 or 11, towards the the tank. The daughter is loaded with hi explosives, walking alone towards the tank———the sniper knows the child is wired———-
And whatever happened was in the script!
That doesn't mean we should become hit-men or prostitutes to get employment.
Jesus brought over those things from the old testament that he wanted to reiterate. Jesus did not abolish the law. He established it. And no one is talking about hit men and prostitution.

You are totally dismissing what Jesus said then.
No, I'm not.
The character of God is the same of course. But because the 1st covenant agreement was broken by the ancient Israelite Jesus made a new covenant agreement with Israel and man kind. It's different to the Old testament.
Not when he established the law. Not until Heaven and earth disappear...
 
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ScottA

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Anguspure

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So, Moses is of no more value to mankind than a crackhead?
That was not the question in the OP. The question you asked was: Do Some Lives Matter More Than Others?

Does the life of the crack-dealer matter as much as the life of Moses? Yes it does; this based on the very high value that God has placed on it and this is the beauty of the Agape Love that God has given us in Christ Jesus.

To answer the question of value; the answer is provided by the valuer.

Clearly the value that God has placed on any human life is made clear by what He is prepared to exchange in return for that life. Clearly God values every human life more than his own.

In the same way the question of the value that mankind places on human life is also made clear by the way mankind treats one other. Mankind clearly does not value even the most "valuable" human lives particularly highly.

Perhaps because of this low value that we place on human life we have great difficulty understanding the extremely high value that God has placed on life and think that people who do bad things are some how intrinsically less valuable because of the bad things they do.

This then is the value that individual people offer to mankind by the way that they live their lives. Their lives might be seen as "valuable" to the rest of us.

From this perspective it can be seen that there is a marked difference between a crack-dealer and Moses in that what Moses offered to mankind through his obedience to the creator carries a continuing value where-as the crack-dealer offers nothing of use and in fact only takes good things from mankind.

So the link between the value of the person and the value of the act is a curious one what is it that gives us reason to believe that a persons intrinsic value is determined on the basis of actions?
 
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dougangel

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Nor repaying evil for evil is instruction on interpersonal relationships.

Do you think one should stand by and watch someone being raped, and not "repay evil for evil"? Do you think that the state should no prosecute crimes?

Well no. I think you should get help. call the police and more people intervening would stop it. Jesus spoke to the crowd who wanted to stone the woman.

THat's the law in my country anyway. Not to take the law into your own hands. I don't think they really prosecute that much.
Although a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property. But that's very rare here.
Paul tells us to obey authorities where it doesn't go against God.
I do find some punishment laws and sentences unfair to ridiculous in the judicial system. So mans Justice and Gods justice. they don't seem to be the same.
 
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dougangel

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You are totally dismissing what Jesus said then.

I don't love my enemies.
That insults the people I know that are worthy of my love. To put them in the same embrace as those who would have us dead? Not likely.

Frisky Wren "" No, I'm not."

"You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)
 
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Rachel96

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Did Isaac Newton matter more than Hitler? Could we not attribute more value to mankind to Newton than Hitler?

Did William Shakespeare matter more than Justin Bieber ever will? Socrates more than Snoop Dog? Abraham Lincoln more than Al Sharpton?

Is it true that some lives matter more than others? Would you trade the life Jonas Salk (cured polio) for that of Kim Kardashian?

How about serial killers like Ted Bundy? Does your life matter more than his?

Do Some Lives Matter More Than Others?

No.

Okay, so recently I've been hearing "Black Lives Matter" a lot. I've even seen it graffitied on a train in semi-regional Australia. To be honest, I find the whole thing a bit odd... Because it seems such a no-brainer to us.

Now, I don't pretend that Australia's got the whole thing worked out. We have some major unresolved issues in the country. But even in the darkest days of Aboriginal legislation, said legislations were built around the misguided, parochial idea that "These lives matter. But they're living them wrong, and we need to make them live their lives better."

So you're asking if one person's life is more valuable than any other's. All I can say is that you're straying close to utilitarianism or, perhaps worse, self-deification with that line of thought.

Speaking of deity, I wonder what Christ would have thought of all this. I mean, can't you just picture it, if they'd had social media back in the first century, someone asking "Does a Levite matter more than a tax collector? Does a priest matter more than a prostitute? Does a Jew matter more than a Samaritan?"

To which Jesus repeatedly replied, "Don't be ridiculous. I care about the lives of everyone. Does a tax collector or a prostitute not need my love just as much as a priest or a Levite?"

Everyone matters to God, and Christ came to reach everyone. A life is a life, created by God, and God wants all of them reconciled to Him for eternity. There is no life with greater worth than any other, except that of Christ Himself, who was able to offer his in exchange of those of the entire world.

Of course, if you're asking if some people have greater contributions to society than others; well, that's a different question entirely.
 
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Anguspure

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Do you think one should stand by and watch someone being raped, and not "repay evil for evil"?
How does crime prevention relate to justice? The action of putting a stop to a rape in progress is completely seperate from the issue of what to do with the perpetrator after the crime has been stopped.

Do you think that the state should no prosecute crimes?
The state has a social mandate to prosecute for crimes committed agaunst the community but how this is carried out and to what extent justice is exacted or how much is given to restorative issues is another question.
 
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dougangel

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esus brought over those things from the old testament that he wanted to reiterate. Jesus did not abolish the law. He established it. And no one is talking about hit men and prostitution.

Oh boy. Here we go again. Jesus established the New Covenant as law after the cross we are to approach the law from Christian commands not Old testament law. Many laws have changed. I've shown you the revenge laws have changed. You will agree that the animal sacrificial laws have changed ? So the law in Matthew 5: 17 that Jesus is talking about are his commands he lists in Matthew chapters 5 to 7. and the rest of his ministry.
What your taking out of context is. Jesus is definitely saying there is Christian law and we have to obey it. Not Jewish law.

Frisky wren said ""And no one is talking about hit men and prostitution.""

Honestly ? Do you not get my point ? I brought that up. My point was Christians should not just do anything to make money. There are conditions
 
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Anguspure

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But even in the darkest days of Aboriginal legislation, said legislations were built around the misguided, parochial idea that "These lives matter. But they're living them wrong, and we need to make them live their lives better."
Really???!!! How was hunting them like animals, almost to extinction going to make them live their lives better?


Speaking of deity, I wonder what Christ would have thought of all this. I mean, can't you just picture it, if they'd had social media back in the first century, someone asking "Does a Levite matter more than a tax collector? Does a priest matter more than a prostitute? Does a Jew matter more than a Samaritan?"

To which Jesus repeatedly replied, "Don't be ridiculous. I care about the lives of everyone. Does a tax collector or a prostitute not need my love just as much as a priest or a Levite?"
True, but He said it a lot less than He lived it.
The strongest impression we get of value is in the way people act and live in relation to us. The strong impression most people get from the way they are marginilised and ignored by those of who proclaim a better way in Christ Jesus is that they have value only as fodder for the fires of hell. I speak as one who lives in the world that feels this acutely.

Everyone matters to God, and Christ came to reach everyone. A life is a life, created by God, and God wants all of them reconciled to Him for eternity. There is no life with greater worth than any other, except that of Christ Himself, who was able to offer his in exchange of those of the entire world.
So where are all the little Christs reinforcing this message by the way they act towards the most despicable and lowly valued people in society?
 
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