.

[NadineWoods]

Nobody wants to answer the question...
Are ALL people made in the image and likeness of their Creator?

Of course mankind was originally created in the image of God, but you seem to conveniently forget that man is no longer in the original state that God created him to be. Now because of the fall, man is intrinsically by nature sinful. Our sinful imperfect nature has to be vile and repulsive to a holy and perfect God. This is why God had to sacrifice His very own Son so that we could be made clean & righteous by His blood and would then, and only then, be able to be brought back into fellowship with truly perfect and holy God.

In our fallen state, do you believe that we are still in the likeness & image of God?” Do we presently, as we come forth at birth, reflect the perfect image of a perfect God? I personally don’t think so. So the implication that we are all valuable because we are still in the image & likeness of God as mankind was originally created is a flawed theory in my opinion.

 

[Frisky Wren]

Oh boy. Here we go again. Jesus established the New Covenant as law after the cross we are to approach the law from Christian commands not Old testament law. Many laws have changed. I've shown you the revenge laws have changed. You will agree that the animal sacrificial laws have changed ? So the law in Matthew 5: 17 that Jesus is talking about are his commands he lists in Matthew chapters 5 to 7. and the rest of his ministry.
What your taking out of context is. Jesus is definitely saying there is Christian law and we have to obey it. Not Jewish law.

Frisky wren said ""And no one is talking about hit men and prostitution.""

Honestly ? Do you not get my point ? I brought that up. My point was Christians should not just do anything to make money. There are conditions

Jesus was a Jew. You're aware of that? Jesus reiterated God's ten commands in the new testament. The sacrificial laws of God aren't in place as we know because Jesus was the final sacrifice. The moral laws do remain in effect. The civil laws of God are of the Jews alone and I don't know their tradition today to know if they follow those.

The Christian laws is a misnomer. Jesus was God. He gave us God's laws under the new covenant.
They're not the Christian laws. Jesus wasn't a Christian after all. The first gentile church was founded in Antioch and well after Jesus. You can read about that fact in Acts of the Apostles chapter 11.
And the faithful who followed the teachings of Christ were then first called Christians in Antioch.

 

[NadineWoods]

God's idea of our worth is the truth about our worth.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

There is no other definition of our worth that matters.

I’m sorry but you misunderstood that verse completely!!!!, That verse is a definition of God’s mercy & compassion & love and has nothing whatsoever to do with our intrinsic worth. He created us, and so we may have value to Him as such, but His love for us says much more about HIM than it ever does about us!!!!! So I don’t understand how you can use this verse to justify your position that we are worthy of His love & consideration and therefore valuable to Him. We are so NOT worthy of His consideration. We are just so blessed that the God of the entire universe loved His fallen creation enough to make us worthy through His Son’s redemptive work!!!! And without the redemptive work of Christ, we are nothing!!!

Consider:
Ephesians 1:4 “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” – NOT according to OUR worth!

I haven’t been reading this forum for quite some time and have been truly shocked by these answers. It is only in humility that we are accepted before God. I’m sure not seeing much humility here. We don’t deserve His consideration. We are fallen creatures who are not worth the precious price He paid for us. We are so immeasurably blessed to be allowed to serve Him. There is no amount of sacrifice that we could make to make up for the cost He paid for us. There is no amount of service we could give to justify His decision to save us. Yet, out of gratitude, I for one, keep trying to please Him and serve Him because I fully acknowledge that it is all about His merciful and compassionate character, and all about the redemptive sacrificial work of Christ, and all about His Gift, and it has so little to do with anything I bring to the table!!!

 

[sparow]

Jesus was a Jew. You're aware of that? Jesus reiterated God's ten commands in the new testament. The sacrificial laws of God aren't in place as we know because Jesus was the final sacrifice. The moral laws do remain in effect. The civil laws of God are of the Jews alone and I don't know their tradition today to know if they follow those.

The Christian laws is a misnomer. Jesus was God. He gave us God's laws under the new covenant.
They're not the Christian laws. Jesus wasn't a Christian after all. The first gentile church was founded in Antioch and well after Jesus. You can read about that fact in Acts of the Apostles chapter 11.
And the faithful who followed the teachings of Christ were then first called Christians in Antioch.

<<And the faithful who followed the teachings of Christ were then first called Christians in Antioch.>>
This is an assumption; I realise I am deviating from the topic but the understanding I received when I first read about this was that the term used was derogatory and used by the apostles enemies; they didn't call themselves Christians, others called them that; Antioch was a bad place.

 

[dougangel]

Jesus was a Jew. You're aware of that? Jesus reiterated God's ten commands in the new testament. The sacrificial laws of God aren't in place as we know because Jesus was the final sacrifice. The moral laws do remain in effect. The civil laws of God are of the Jews alone and I don't know their tradition today to know if they follow those.

The Christian laws is a misnomer. Jesus was God. He gave us God's laws under the new covenant.
They're not the Christian laws. Jesus wasn't a Christian after all. The first gentile church was founded in Antioch and well after Jesus. You can read about that fact in Acts of the Apostles chapter 11.
And the faithful who followed the teachings of Christ were then first called Christians in Antioch.

1st Corinthians 9:19 - 22

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel that I may share in its blessings.

Paul who is a Jew is not under the (Old Testament) law. But Paul is under Christs Laws. Or Paul is under New Testament laws. Paul is still under Christ’s law. Anything that Paul wrote that contradicts this cannot be right as this is unmistakably plain and we can use this text as a platform for his other writings that are not so clear.

Romans 2:14

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Gentiles who do not have the law. (Old Testament law) and never will. They have the requirements of Christ’s law written on their hearts. This is an example, one of many of why Paul gets misunderstood because he is mentioning two laws just using the word law.

Romans 7:6

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We don’t serve in the old way of the written code. The law he is talking about must be Old Testament law. What is the new way of the spirit? Well of course its Christ and the spiritual way he teaches and how to approach his New Testament spiritual laws.

Romans 8:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

There is a law of the spirit.

2 Corinthians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

The ministry of death written and engraved on stones. Pretty strong stuff. Paul is talking about the 10 commandments here not just Levi.

A New Covenant Hebrews 8:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



A couple of points. The covenant itself was not to blame. But it was the nature of sinful man to break laws and not wanting to be told what to do, because the Israelites did not continue in his covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I’m sorry but you misunderstood that verse completely!!!!, That verse is a definition of God’s mercy & compassion & love and has nothing whatsoever to do with our intrinsic worth. He created us, and so we may have value to Him as such, but His love for us says much more about HIM than it ever does about us!!!!! So I don’t understand how you can use this verse to justify your position that we are worthy of His love & consideration and therefore valuable to Him. We are so NOT worthy of His consideration. We are just so blessed that the God of the entire universe loved His fallen creation enough to make us worthy through His Son’s redemptive work!!!! And without the redemptive work of Christ, we are nothing!!!

Consider:
Ephesians 1:4 “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” – NOT according to OUR worth!

I haven’t been reading this forum for quite some time and have been truly shocked by these answers. It is only in humility that we are accepted before God. I’m sure not seeing much humility here. We don’t deserve His consideration. We are fallen creatures who are not worth the precious price He paid for us. We are so immeasurably blessed to be allowed to serve Him. There is no amount of sacrifice that we could make to make up for the cost He paid for us. There is no amount of service we could give to justify His decision to save us. Yet, out of gratitude, I for one, keep trying to please Him and serve Him because I fully acknowledge that it is all about His merciful and compassionate character, and all about the redemptive sacrificial work of Christ, and all about His Gift, and it has so little to do with anything I bring to the table!!!

Its true that our lives on this earth don't do much to commend us as worth much to God.

But I still say that God's love for us, all by itself, taking nothing else into account, automatically makes us of great value.

It is not a deserved value. It is an imputed value. But it is real.

 

[Frisky Wren]

<<And the faithful who followed the teachings of Christ were then first called Christians in Antioch.>>
This is an assumption; I realise I am deviating from the topic but the understanding I received when I first read about this was that the term used was derogatory and used by the apostles enemies; they didn't call themselves Christians, others called them that; Antioch was a bad place.

I've heard that as well.
Do you call yourself a Christian today?

 

[ken777]

Does God love some people more than others?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13


...​

 

[sparow]

I've heard that as well.
Do you call yourself a Christian today?

Yes but with eye wide open; the word is only a handle; I am aware that most who call themselves Christian have abrogated the Law; that is they use His name but wear their own garments. The original apostles would have used the name "Israel"; I regard myself an Israelite.

 

[dougangel]

Does God love some people more than others?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13


...​

The narrative of Esau selling his birthright to Jacob, in Genesis 25, states that Esau despised his birthright. However, it also alludes to Jacob being one who deceives.
In Esau's mother and father's eyes, the deception may have been deserved. Rebekah later abets Jacob in receiving his father's blessing disguised as Esau. Isaac then refuses to take Jacob's blessing back after learning he was tricked, and does not give this blessing to Esau but, after Esau begs, gives him an inferior blessing (Genesis 27:34–40)
Jacobs heart for the blessing's were more important than his deception.
There are reasons why God hated Esau.
Also Roman 9 mentions Moses and the pharaoh. The pharaoh had plenty of chances to let the people go. There were reasons why God hated Pharaoh,

 

[Anguspure]

Does God love some people more than others?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13
​

Does God hating Esau in any way devalue the life of Esau?
The hate of God must be put into context. The fact that Esau lived a full life would seem to indicate that the hate of God is quite a bit more loving than the insipid love that men muster for one another.
It is also written "He is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7), strong words, and yet He also demonstrates His love and value for the same wicked people by laying down His life for them all.

 

[ken777]

Does God hating Esau in any way devalue the life of Esau?
The hate of God must be put into context. The fact that Esau lived a full life would seem to indicate that the hate of God is quite a bit more loving than the insipid love that men muster for one another.
It is also written "He is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7), strong words, and yet He also demonstrates His love and value for the same wicked people by laying down His life for them all.

I do not believe Jesus Christ died for every person ever born. He died for those who would believe and accept Him. Jesus' sacrificial death & resurrection is sufficient to atone for all the sins of everyone, but God knew not everyone would accept Him.

..

 

[Anguspure]

I do not believe Jesus Christ died for every person ever born. He died for those who would believe and accept Him. Jesus' sacrificial death & resurrection is sufficient to atone for all the sins of everyone, but God knew not everyone would accept Him.

..

It is true that God is sovereign and what you are saying might also be interpreted from a passage in Pauls letter to the Romans: Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

But Peter answers this directly in his letter and writes: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It seems to me however that the middle knowledge of God that allows Him to know in advance who will accept His gift of Life and who will reject it, does nothing to lower the value that He has placed on every person in the giving of the life of His own life.

 

[ken777]

It is true that God is sovereign and what you are saying might also be interpreted from a passage in Pauls letter to the Romans: Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

The words "prepared for destruction" are very strong and need to be incorporated into our theology.

But Peter answers this directly in his letter and writes: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Could not an argument be made that Peter is addressing "you" and therefore the meaning is "everyone of you to come to repentance"? I think the word for everyone is 'pas' (all) and I have seen a number of debates on whether this means absolutely everyone or only all of those in a designated category. The latter seems probable given the passage from Paul you quoted.

It seems to me however that the middle knowledge of God that allows Him to know in advance who will accept His gift of Life and who will reject it, does nothing to lower the value that He has placed on every person in the giving of the life of His own life.

But that is the core of the issue ... did Jesus give His life for everyone? Even if it is God's will that everyone ever born should be saved, He only died for those who would accept (or at least not reject) Him. Jesus atoned for all sin but not for every person because the atonement is only effective when it is appropriated by the individual

...

 

[Anguspure]

The words "prepared for destruction" are very strong and need to be incorporated into our theology.

To my mind these words come across as a hypothetical scenario rather than as a statement that is necesary to beleive.

Could not an argument be made that Peter is addressing "you" and therefore the meaning is "everyone of you to come to repentance"? I think the word for everyone is 'pas' (all) and I have seen a number of debates on whether this means absolutely everyone or only all of those in a designated category. The latter seems probable given the passage from Paul you quoted.

Possibly but I am not settled either way and tend to follow my thinking on the core nature of God in that God is Agape Love in that God infinite source of all good. This would seem to allow little room for God to treat anyone in other than a way that does is not Agape.

But that is the core of the issue ... did Jesus give His life for everyone? Even if it is God's will that everyone ever born should be saved, He only died for those who would accept (or at least not reject) Him. Jesus atoned for all sin but not for every person because the atonement is only effective when it is appropriated by the individual

...

I don't think it makes any difference to God how many people will accept His gift. The thing is that 1 righteous man died voluntarily to cover the sin of the world and His death covers all sin. The gift has been put on the table, it is only one gift and cannot be any bigger or smaller irrespective of whether 10 or 10 000 000 000 people accept it. In this respect the value of the gift proclaims Gods Love for all people.

Its not as if in the event only half the people accepted the gift that Christ could have half died, or if 10 times as many people accept then He has to die 10 more times. No, Christ died once for all.

Arguably, of course, in the end it turns out that the gift is only efficacious for those who accept it and has no value for those who reject it. This is true. It is also true that God would have known who it was that was going to receive it.
But, from the perspective of the giver, how does this devalue the gift that has been put on offer to all people, especially since it is one and the same gift for all?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well no. I think you should get help. call the police and more people intervening would stop it. Jesus spoke to the crowd who wanted to stone the woman.

THat's the law in my country anyway. Not to take the law into your own hands. I don't think they really prosecute that much.
Although a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property. But that's very rare here.
Paul tells us to obey authorities where it doesn't go against God.
I do find some punishment laws and sentences unfair to ridiculous in the judicial system. So mans Justice and Gods justice. they don't seem to be the same.

Stopping someone from raping a child isn't taking the law into your own hands.

"a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property" If this is the case, you live in a very unjust country my friend. You prosecute the victim, and let the criminals go free. Is this a Scandinavian country?

 

[ken777]

To my mind these words come across as a hypothetical scenario rather than as a statement that is necessary to believe.

But Scripture does seem to give specific examples - in the case of Esau, & Pharaoh - so it seems a bit more than just hypothetical. Jesus said of Judas: None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Possibly but I am not settled either way and tend to follow my thinking on the core nature of God in that God is Agape Love in that God infinite source of all good. This would seem to allow little room for God to treat anyone in other than a way that does is not Agape.

I recalled 1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Savior, who wants (desires) all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
This seems to include everyone ever born so I suppose we are at the intersection of God's desire and God's foreknowledge.

Arguably, of course, in the end it turns out that the gift is only efficacious for those who accept it and has no value for those who reject it. This is true. It is also true that God would have known who it was that was going to receive it.
But, from the perspective of the giver, how does this devalue the gift that has been put on offer to all people, especially since it is one and the same gift for all?

I do not believe that it devalues the gift in any way.
I think it is of theological interest but at a practical level we do not know who will and who will not receive the gift, so we must value all people the same.

Even while writing this I am conscious of Jude's very emphatic denunciation of those who rejected the Gospel and then fought against it
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are we not given such insight today to identify these "ungodly men"?

..

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But Peter answers this directly in his letter and writes: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Who is Peter referring to when he says "you"?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Of course mankind was originally created in the image of God, but you seem to conveniently forget that man is no longer in the original state that God created him to be. Now because of the fall, man is intrinsically by nature sinful. Our sinful imperfect nature has to be vile and repulsive to a holy and perfect God. This is why God had to sacrifice His very own Son so that we could be made clean & righteous by His blood and would then, and only then, be able to be brought back into fellowship with truly perfect and holy God.

In our fallen state, do you believe that we are still in the likeness & image of God?” Do we presently, as we come forth at birth, reflect the perfect image of a perfect God? I personally don’t think so. So the implication that we are all valuable because we are still in the image & likeness of God as mankind was originally created is a flawed theory in my opinion.

You are correct. We have the value of a piece of garbage, which is why God's loves towards us is so amazing. If we had value in and of ourselves, we would be worthy of His love from birth; however, we are His enemies, yet He dies for us.

The brilliance of the gospel is only fully seen against the backdrop of our worthlessness.

Paul describes the condition of all mankind in Romans 3:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”

“Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit.”

“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

ruin and misery mark their ways,

and the way of peace they do not know.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[dougangel]

Stopping someone from raping a child isn't taking the law into your own hands.

"a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property" If this is the case, you live in a very unjust country my friend. You prosecute the victim, and let the criminals go free. Is this a Scandinavian country?

I'm in New Zealand, where are you ?

Our police don't walk around with firearms. Although they have them in there vehicles.
We have special trained armed defender squads in most cities like american swat teams.