.

[dougangel]

Stopping someone from raping a child isn't taking the law into your own hands.

"a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property" If this is the case, you live in a very unjust country my friend. You prosecute the victim, and let the criminals go free. Is this a Scandinavian country?

This is how we handle crime in New zealand
http://ietv.co/29vwsEo

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No man cannot be better than another man, because all good things for the benefit of man can only be accredited to God and God alone. When a man creates a cure for a disease, do not thank the man for the task, but God. Humanity does not contribute to the good of itself, because it is inherently self-destructive.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm in New Zealand, where are you ?

Our police don't walk around with firearms. Although they have them in there vehicles.
We have special trained armed defender squads in most cities like american swat teams.

Thanks. I'll take it off my list of places to visit. I prefer police who actually have the ability to protect citizens.

I live in the US. Once the, "land of the free and the home of the brave", until Progressive Liberalism decimated it.

 

[Anguspure]

"a farmer was prosecuted for wounding a intruder on his property" If this is the case, you live in a very unjust country my friend. You prosecute the victim, and let the criminals go free. Is this a Scandinavian country?

Little ole New Zealand methinks.

 

[Anguspure]

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this not referring to those among us?

Are we not given such insight today to identify these "ungodly men"?

..

If this is true, what worries me is that I may have been living among them for the last 25 years in the hope that at some point I might be able to pass on the hope we have. Bit of a downer really, if this is true, that is.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Little ole New Zealand methinks.

What are your thoughts on the farmer being charged?

 

[dougangel]

Thanks. I'll take it off my list of places to visit. I prefer police who actually have the ability to protect citizens.

I live in the US. Once the, "land of the free and the home of the brave", until Progressive Liberalism decimated it.

So in New Zealand your 16 times less likely to be killed per 100 thousand than the usa.
so i don't know what your talking about.
It's very strange for a civilian to have a gun in public in NZ and if they do they well be reported to the police.
I've never seen a policemen in NZ with a gun in real life. They just don't run around with guns all the time. I feel a lot safer. I have seen guns on tv when there doing drug busts and armed call outs but that's not so common here. If a civilian flashes a gun in public the will go to jail here.

You don't deserve a freedom if your misusing it. Letting someone run around with semi automatic rifles and concealed weapons in public is crazy and more Americans should cry out about sterner gun control laws.

 

[dougangel]

What are your thoughts on the farmer being charged?

It's about excessive force isn't it. If someone is unarmed is it really necessary for someone to shoot them.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So in New Zealand your 16 times less likely to be killed per 100 thousand than the usa.
so i don't know what your talking about.
It's very strange for a civilian to have a gun in public in NZ and if they do they well be reported to the police.
I've never seen a policemen in NZ with a gun in real life. They just don't run around with guns all the time. I feel a lot safer. I have seen guns on tv when there doing drug busts and armed call outs but that's not so common here. If a civilian flashes a gun in public the will go to jail here.

You don't deserve a freedom if your misusing it. Letting someone run around with semi automatic rifles and concealed weapons in public is crazy and more Americans should cry out about sterner gun control laws.

The higher the rate of legal gun ownership the lower rate of crime. Most murders here are gang members killing other gang members, with illegal-obtained guns.

 

[dougangel]

The higher the rate of legal gun ownership the lower rate of crime. Most murders here are gang members killing other gang members, with illegal-obtained guns.

I don't think you know a lot about it. That's not true for New Zealand. I"ve given you statistical proof.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I don't think you know a lot about it. That's not true for New Zealand. I"ve given you statistical proof.

You've given me stats on "gun" murders.

Cities and towns within the US which have the highest number of registered gun owners have the lowest crime rates. Don't take my word for it.

 

[NadineWoods]

Its true that our lives on this earth don't do much to commend us as worth much to God.

But I still say that God's love for us, all by itself, taking nothing else into account, automatically makes us of great value.

It is not a deserved value. It is an imputed value. But it is real.

I completely understand why you believe that, but I see it differently. I respect all life because I know that all life has the potential to be valuable to mankind and to God, but I've experienced enough of life to have witnessed lives that have, from the outside at least, shown no value to God and very little if any value to mankind. The only redeeming value that I observed was that the Christians God placed in their lives were forced to trust in, rely on, and grasp their God ever so tightly just to survive the experience. So in a way, I guess God did use them similar to the way He used Pharaoh.

I still believe that God's love for us is all about His goodness and lovingkindness and not about any worth we have apart from Him. I think we differ more on perspective, but I certainly get where you are coming from.

 

[NadineWoods]

Does God hating Esau in any way devalue the life of Esau?
The hate of God must be put into context. The fact that Esau lived a full life would seem to indicate that the hate of God is quite a bit more loving than the insipid love that men muster for one another.
It is also written "He is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7), strong words, and yet He also demonstrates His love and value for the same wicked people by laying down His life for them all.

Well, I can say this with all conviction. I sure would feel like my life was of less value if God hated me!!!

I have pondered on this subject quite a bit and finally realized why the ungodly have it so easy in this life. God has compassion on His creation! Since they won't be spending eternity with Him in heaven, He compassionately gives them ease in this life. But make no mistake, you really don't want God to hate you. Hell is where the God haters live. Do you really want to live there for eternity?

 

[NadineWoods]

He has made the decision to do that when he goes through is sniper training and taking pay.

I think the real question is here.
Should Christians repay evil for evil ?
I know what the gospels say about that.

Wow have you missed the mark! This sniper was not repaying evil for evil as you presume. On the contrary, this sniper was protecting the innocent, and there is a very big difference!!!

Only someone who does not know the character of God would even consider allowing an innocent child to die in order to justify their unwillingness to save them. Please consider:

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,” Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?

Proverbs 31:8 Open your mouth for the mute, For the rights of all the unfortunate. 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.


There is so much in the scripture about the character of God. If you don’t read the Old Testament, you’re likely to miss out on much about who God is. Here’s some scripture which shows how God would treat the needy and afflicted. And if God cares so much about them, and we are called to become like God, shouldn’t we also care about them?

Psalms 37:12 The wicked plots against the righteous And gnashes at him with his teeth. 37:13 The Lord laughs at him, For He sees his day is coming. 37:14 The wicked have drawn the sword and bent their bow To cast down the afflicted and the needy, To slay those who are upright in conduct. 37:15 Their sword will enter their own heart, And their bows will be broken.

Psalms 12:5 “Because of the devastation of the afflicted, because of the groaning of the needy, Now I will arise,” says the LORD; “I will set him in the safety for which he longs.”

Psalms 34:17 The righteous cry, and the LORD hears And delivers them out of all their troubles. 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted And saves those who are crushed in spirit. 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psalms 35:9 And my soul shall rejoice in the LORD; It shall exult in His salvation. 35:10 All my bones will say, “LORD, who is like You, Who delivers the afflicted from him who it too strong for him, And the afflicted and the needy from him who robs him?”

Psalms 140:12 I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted And justice for the poor. 140:13 Surely the righteous will give thanks to Your name; The upright will dwell in Your presence.

Psalms 147:6 The LORD supports the afflicted; He brings down the wicked to the ground.


If I were to find myself in the position of that sniper, I would pull the trigger because I would assume God placed me there at the right time so He could use me to deliver the innocent; it would have absolutely nothing to do with repaying evil with evil. That you could even suggest that makes me wonder about your mindset. Perhaps you never been in any situation that would cause you to identify with the needy and afflicted. What would you want the sniper to do if it was your neck with the knife to it?

A better question would be, “Are we willing to be Christ on earth?” Are we willing to deliver the needy & afflicted? Judging by the persecuted believers around the world who are dying every day, I would say not. But for each and every soldier and police officer who is out there protecting the innocent, I say, “You are my hero! Thank you for your willingness to serve & protect. You inspire me to be Christ where I live. I am praying for you. May God bless you with manifold blessings for your willingness to put your life on the line every day for me.”

 

[dougangel]

You've given me stats on "gun" murders.

Cities and towns within the US which have the highest number of registered gun owners have the lowest crime rates. Don't take my word for it.

I haven't. What you said is very controversial. It's seems it's a very complicated question. For example
eason.com/blog/2015/09/02/do-strict-firearm-laws-give-states-lower

According to a recent National Journal analysis of data from 2013, "the states that impose the most restrictions on gun users also have the lowest rates of gun-related deaths, while states with fewer regulations typically have a much higher death rate from guns." Bearing in mind that correlation does not prove causation, what should we make of this conclusion?

An August 2013 CDC report looked at rates for gun homicides in the 50 most populous metropolitan areas. It found that for 2009-2010, the top gun murder rate areas were, in order: New Orleans, Memphis, Detroit, Birmingham, St. Louis, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Philadelphia and Chicago.

Six of those cities are in states with poor scores for their gun laws, while the other four get a “C” or better. Chicago, which placed last in the top 10, had a ban on handguns at the time. There’s no discernible pattern among those cities, nor clear or convincing evidence in these statistics that shows more gun laws lead to more or less gun crime.

 

[RDKirk]

There was a 'sniper movie' where a woman, maybe the mother, walks out towards an American tank——-the mother pushes her young daughter,,10 or 11, towards the the tank. The daughter is loaded with hi explosives, walking alone towards the tank———the sniper knows the child is wired———-

My father was in a situation in Vietnam where a little girl for the months he'd been there had come every morning with a tray of local sweets for sale. One day she came as usual...and with the tray of sweets she had a grenade in her hand. They killed her...and he did not ever feel good about that situation.

Here is a point I just made in a different thread:

When we as Christians are forced by circumstances in this fallen world to choose the lesser of what we know are both evils, we should never rationalize afterward that what we chose was actually righteous. It was not righteous--it was not, as Jesus said, "...the way it was in the Beginning." It was a lesser of evils, but it was and will always still be an evil...it will never be righteous.

 

[dougangel]

Wow have you missed the mark! This sniper was not repaying evil for evil as you presume. On the contrary, this sniper was protecting the innocent, and there is a very big difference!!!

Only someone who does not know the character of God would even consider allowing an innocent child to die in order to justify their unwillingness to save them. Please consider:

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,” Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?

Proverbs 31:8 Open your mouth for the mute, For the rights of all the unfortunate. 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.


There is so much in the scripture about the character of God. If you don’t read the Old Testament, you’re likely to miss out on much about who God is. Here’s some scripture which shows how God would treat the needy and afflicted. And if God cares so much about them, and we are called to become like God, shouldn’t we also care about them?

Psalms 37:12 The wicked plots against the righteous And gnashes at him with his teeth. 37:13 The Lord laughs at him, For He sees his day is coming. 37:14 The wicked have drawn the sword and bent their bow To cast down the afflicted and the needy, To slay those who are upright in conduct. 37:15 Their sword will enter their own heart, And their bows will be broken.

Psalms 12:5 “Because of the devastation of the afflicted, because of the groaning of the needy, Now I will arise,” says the LORD; “I will set him in the safety for which he longs.”

Psalms 34:17 The righteous cry, and the LORD hears And delivers them out of all their troubles. 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted And saves those who are crushed in spirit. 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psalms 35:9 And my soul shall rejoice in the LORD; It shall exult in His salvation. 35:10 All my bones will say, “LORD, who is like You, Who delivers the afflicted from him who it too strong for him, And the afflicted and the needy from him who robs him?”

Psalms 140:12 I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted And justice for the poor. 140:13 Surely the righteous will give thanks to Your name; The upright will dwell in Your presence.

Psalms 147:6 The LORD supports the afflicted; He brings down the wicked to the ground.


If I were to find myself in the position of that sniper, I would pull the trigger because I would assume God placed me there at the right time so He could use me to deliver the innocent; it would have absolutely nothing to do with repaying evil with evil. That you could even suggest that makes me wonder about your mindset. Perhaps you never been in any situation that would cause you to identify with the needy and afflicted. What would you want the sniper to do if it was your neck with the knife to it?

A better question would be, “Are we willing to be Christ on earth?” Are we willing to deliver the needy & afflicted? Judging by the persecuted believers around the world who are dying every day, I would say not. But for each and every soldier and police officer who is out there protecting the innocent, I say, “You are my hero! Thank you for your willingness to serve & protect. You inspire me to be Christ where I live. I am praying for you. May God bless you with manifold blessings for your willingness to put your life on the line every day for me.”

Ok well posting all those quotes out of context in the old testament Doesn't impress. We are no longer under old testament
See post #205
"You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

There is a law change from the old testament to the new testament. After the cross we are no longer to do eye for an eye.

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus is saying some believers are going to go through a tribulation and lawlessness will abound. This seems to contradict your passages. I don't always think it looks like the righteous wins in a worldly sense.

Matthew 20:24-26New International Version (NIV)
24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

 

[dougangel]

If I were to find myself in the position of that sniper, I would pull the trigger because I would assume God placed me there at the right time so He could use me to deliver the innocent; it would have absolutely nothing to do with repaying evil with evil. That you could even suggest that makes me wonder about your mindset. Perhaps you never been in any situation that would cause you to identify with the needy and afflicted. What would you want the sniper to do if it was your neck with the knife to it?

Total number of U.S. soldiers / personnel deployed to South Vietnam 2,594,000

Total number of U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War 58,220

Total number of U.S. soldiers wounded in the Vietnam War 303,644

Total military casualties from both sides 1.475 million

Total wounded from both sides 2.094 million

Total civilian casualties from both sides 4 million

Did you know that in the last century most major wars had more civilian casualties than soldiers.
see the aprox figures 4 million civilians. I'm not american bashing. It would of been done from both sides.

Would you napalm a village when you knew there were civilians there if you were ordered too ?

 

[ken777]

Is this not referring to those among us?

Yes & no

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:18-19

..

 

[Frisky Wren]

Yes but with eye wide open; the word is only a handle; I am aware that most who call themselves Christian have abrogated the Law; that is they use His name but wear their own garments. The original apostles would have used the name "Israel"; I regard myself an Israelite.

Do you know the origin of that word?


1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

Isaiah 62
62 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lordshall name.

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.