.

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[98cwitr]

We dont have the gifts because we don't have the faith. Need more faith! If only as much as a mustard seed....

 

[Shane R]

The other thing that bothers me about organized religion is its' seemingly inexhaustible determination to establish rites and customs which appear to go directly against what Jesus taught. For instance, the RCC, Orthodox and Protestant Churches all practice some form of "water" christening, or baptism. I suppose this in accordance with the tradition established by John the Baptist. However, as indicated in post #83 by "Biblicist", Jesus proclaimed he had come to baptize in the "Holy Spirit" of God, (Acts 2:38-39).

It seems to me, the act of water baptism established by John the Baptist (which was just an outward sign of commitment to serve God and reformation) was eclipsed by Jesus baptizing his followers with the Holy Spirit itself. Why then does organized religion revert to water baptism as though Christ never existed ?! Isn't that a refutation of the Gospel of Christ ???

Demeaning water baptism in the way which you have is unorthodox. I suspect you will not listen, but I will offer you a logical progression of Scriptures:

Matthew 3:13-17:

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
​

In this text, Jesus himself receives the rite of water baptism. Also notable, St. John Baptist indicates that Jesus should baptize him.

Matthew 28:19:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
​

Baptism is part of the Great Commission. What form that baptism takes is demonstrated in the Acts of the Apostles.

Acts 8:36:

And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?”
​

If baptism in the Spirit is all it took, why does the eunuch have such a strong feeling about water baptism? No, water baptism is the normal rite of Christian initiation.

St. John gives the theological basis of this view:

1 John 5:6-8:

This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.​

 

[Shane R]

We dont have the gifts because we don't have the faith. Need more faith! If only as much as a mustard seed....

That's always the excuse, isn't it? Do you realize that your explanation, at heart, is Pelagian?

 

[stephen583]

In this text, Jesus himself receives the rite of water baptism. Also notable, St. John Baptist indicates that Jesus should baptize him.

I'm sure John the Baptist wasn't referring to water baptism, but baptism with the Holy Spirit instead. I concede you've got me with proof of water baptism by the Apostles after the Advent of Christ in Acts 8:36 and 1 John 5:6-8. However, notice it is qualified. In Acts 8:37-38 Phillip says to the eunuch "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And the eunuch said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"... and they went down into the water, and he baptized him". Also in 1 John 5:6-8 it says, "not with the water only, but with the water and the blood".

IMHO baptism (christening) infants (who are unable to acknowledge the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ) and merely receiving water baptism without any heart felt acknowledgement of the same, just as a perfunctory act to become a full fledged member of a church congregation as it appears to have become today, is completely and totally meaningless. Without the Holy Spirit and the acknowledgment of Christ's sacrifice, water baptism is just another way to get physically clean. You might as well enjoy a shower.

I'm also disturbed how Christianity has somehow come to regard church "buildings" as holy and sacred places. That seems to be a throwback to Judaism and pagan religions. Although Jesus did refer to the Jewish temple as his "Father's House" several times in the Gospel during his ministry, there is no evidence he ever refered to a temple building as being holy, or sacred after he proclaimed, "I leave your house unto you desolate", (Matthew 23:38, Luke 13:35). Nor did the Apostles ever acknowledge any building they gathered as being sacred or holy either. In fact, the Apostles were not commissioned by Christ to construct buildings.

Scriptural evidence unequivocally points to exactly the opposite conclusion. "Know ye not ye are the temple of God and the Spirit of God dwells in you ?" (1 Corinthians 3:16). "For where two or three gather together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20, KJV). You can just as well hold church in an empty abandoned lot, or around a burn barrel under an interstate overpass, as hold it in a church building.

There simply is NO provision in Christian theology for constructing buildings (temples) and declaring them as being sacred or holy places. As I said before, this is actually a throwback to Judaism (the house left desolate), and pagan religion. To call a building sacred, is essentially the spirit of Anti-Christ. Only God is to be held as sacred, righteous and good... Not some building where people show up once a week to compare clothes and drop a big checks in the collection plates and be anointed as "elders", "apostles", "deacons", "teachers", "priests", "prophets" and all sort of other ridiculous and meaningless titles conveyed by man.

 

[civilwarbuff]

There simply is NO provision in Christian theology for constructing buildings (temples) and declaring them as being sacred or holy places. As I said before, this is actually a throwback to Judaism (the house left desolate), and pagan religion. To call a building sacred, is essentially the spirit of Anti-Christ. Only God is to be held as sacred, righteous and good... Not some building where people show up once a week to compare clothes and drop a big checks in the collection plates and be anointed as "elders", "apostles", "deacons", "teachers", "priests", "prophets" and all sort of other ridiculous and meaningless titles conveyed by man.

You seem to be in support of what we now days call "house churches"....would that be correct?

 

[stephen583]

You seem to be in support of what we now days call "house churches"....would that be correct?

I am in support of "House Churches" and I go even farther than that. I don't believe the Holy See in Rome is holy at all. A couple of weeks ago when Pope Francis publicly declared Donald Trump wasn't a Christian (and I'm not a Trump supporter, or a Republican), was IMO a clear case of the "Pot calling the Kettle black".

I am a non-denominational, non-clerical Christian. As I said earlier, I have seen things I consider miracles, but NOT in any church. I have also listened to men who were unquestionably prophets of God, but I didn't see any of them on television wearing $600 dollar suits and comparing Bible prophecy to the predictions of the astrologer Nostradamus, between numerous prayer offering requests, the way Irvin Baxter does. The whole idea that prophets can be anointed and or be accredited by organized religion is completely laughable to me. Good luck with that.

A bunch of cardinals electing a Pope seems equally preposterous. I can only imagine "politics" plays a larger role in that process than any spiritual consideration. Do you think it's any coincidence Pope John Paul II was Polish, and Poland and the Velvet Revolution is where the collapse of the Soviet empire began ? Do you think it was any coincidence Georgio Bergoglio (the first Pope elected from a developing country, Argentina) was also the perfect symbol for getting an International Climate Change Accord passed in Paris in 2015 ?!

Of course it's no coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence either that Russia (where Stalinism is being resurrected and challenging the RCC) and China (where the RCC has always met government resistance) are two of the greatest contributors to green house gas e-missions and pollution on the planet, and will inevitably be the first two countries economically sanctioned under the restrictions of the Paris Accord. Good luck with that one too.

Of course we'll have to wait to see if the Climate Change Accord actually "Saves the Earth", or whether it becomes the catalyst that ignites a Third World War. Personally, I don't trust the Pope and I believe he is the "False Prophet" Anti-Christ.

So yes. I believe the Church desperately needs alot of restoration, and I have not come to baptize you with water, but with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE. And by the way, "Welcome to the Apocalypse".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That's always the excuse, isn't it? Do you realize that your explanation, at heart, is Pelagian?

Agreed, and not only that, but it is in direct opposition to the text! We don't need more faith. That's the precise point that Jesus was making.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Razare]

Are we to read historical accounts as prescriptive instruction? In other words, just because something happened in history does that necessarily mean it will continue to happen, and happen to us?

It is a great point, we should be expecting more than the apostle Paul. This actually is helping me to get rid of some unbelief now that you brought it up.

Why less? Why settle for less? Certainly it is not Christ who wants his church to diminish and settle for less in our daily lives. We should expect greater things than the Apostle Paul and others!

When Peter preached 3,000 were saved, but today?

PS - I've seen greater miracles than walking on water. Walking on water is a pretty low miracle on the totem pole of miracles, Christ and Peter did it to give us a Bible lesson, and it was prophetically symbolic. Christians are called to walk on water, but we're called to do it in the intent of the lesson it gives, the physical deed was to point us toward the teaching, just like Christ turning water into wine. There are greater miracles that happen today than turning water into wine, but the miracles in the Bible hold a place of symbolism as well as practical use, and that symbolic necessity caused those miracles to differ than many we see today.

When I was healed of insanity, it was a lot more useful than water walking. Yet, every day that I live free of it is like walking on water, because if I turn my eyes to the right or the left to look at the world, and take my eyes off Christ that insanity could return.

Then also, when I was healed of chronic leg pain, that too was far more useful to me than water walking.

Even more than this, when I prayed for the salvation of someone I knew, and God stirred the clouds in heaven, and had the sun show through a cloud as the image of a cross upon me as I prayed, it was as impressive as seeing a man walk on water.

I want to see whole graveyards emptied when a Christian walks by. My hope and faith will be content when that happens, anything less, and I will still be looking forward to that!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is a great point, we should be expecting more than the apostle Paul. This actually is helping me to get rid of some unbelief now that you brought it up.

Why less? Why settle for less? Certainly it is not Christ who wants his church to diminish and settle for less in our daily lives. We should expect greater things than the Apostle Paul and others!

When Peter preached 3,000 were saved, but today?

PS - I've seen greater miracles than walking on water. Walking on water is a pretty low miracle on the totem pole of miracles, Christ and Peter did it to give us a Bible lesson, and it was prophetically symbolic. Christians are called to walk on water, but we're called to do it in the intent of the lesson it gives, the physical deed was to point us toward the teaching, just like Christ turning water into wine. There are greater miracles that happen today than turning water into wine, but the miracles in the Bible hold a place of symbolism as well as practical use, and that symbolic necessity caused those miracles to differ than many we see today.

When I was healed of insanity, it was a lot more useful than water walking. Yet, every day that I live free of it is like walking on water, because if I turn my eyes to the right or the left to look at the world, and take my eyes off Christ that insanity could return.

Then also, when I was healed of chronic leg pain, that too was far more useful to me than water walking.

Even more than this, when I prayed for the salvation of someone I knew, and God stirred the clouds in heaven, and had the sun show through a cloud as the image of a cross upon me as I prayed, it was as impressive as seeing a man walk on water.

I want to see whole graveyards emptied when a Christian walks by. My hope and faith will be content when that happens, anything less, and I will still be looking forward to that!

I'm not certain that your healing "stuck". Have you raised anyone from the dead? Can you video this next time please?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

'first thoughts' on posts here:

We dont have the gifts because we don't have the faith. Need more faith! If only as much as a mustard seed....

(1)Whole multitudes WITH the gifts are sent away on JUDGMENT DAY, remember: "I NEVER knew you"
(2)Faith is a gift. Why do people put faith in man/ doctors/ pastors/ politicians/ INSTEAD OF and OPPOSED TO JESUS ?
Whatever the reason they do, that's possibly why so many are sick and don't get well, spiritually NOR physically.

I'm sure John the Baptist wasn't referring to water baptism

(1) He certainly was. (probably ) . Realize that at that time, they knew MUCH MORE POWER IN IMMERSION than anyone seems to realize TODAY. They came up OUT OF THE WATER, BURIED IN THE WATER< , whole and clean and blameless and forgiven and WITH COMPLETELY CHANGED LIVES free from the power they had previously been bound by.... today? people often don't even have changed lives - nothing to indicate they are really saved or ever will be.....

So yes. I believe the Church desperately needs alot of restoration, and I have not come to baptize you with water, but with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE. And by the way, "Welcome to the Apocalypse".

the restoration is God's DOing, and Has Been for a long time. the 'churches' fight against Him, and lock Him out. (not all, but most, and all of the ones in the world council )

Agreed, and not only that, but it is in direct opposition to the text! We don't need more faith. That's the precise point that Jesus was making.

True that - we don't need more faith - as Jesus said to His disciples "You ARE ALREADY IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, now START LIVING LIKE IT" paraphrased.
Remember though, many peoples faith is not in Jesus, but in something else.

It is a great point, we should be expecting more than the apostle Paul.

Or at least as much, eh? People everywhere are being healed, but in small numbers. It is actually ILLEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES, and most other countries, to heal people.
A lot of churches and church leaders DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH HEALING .... - they work actively to keep people under control instead......

I want to see whole graveyards emptied when a Christian walks by. My hope and faith will be content when that happens, anything less, and I will still be looking forward to that!

"graveyards emptied" partly happened once or twice perhaps , in Scripture,
and will partly happen again soon, possibly. "partly" because most in the graveyards when they are resurrected will be resurrected in shame and condemned. And at a different time than the Righteous.

I'm not certain that your healing "stuck". Have you raised anyone from the dead? Can you video this next time please?

You want a video ? Check the New TEstament first - see> Jesus after His resurrection DID NOT APPEAR TO ANY UNBELIEVERS. ZILCH. NOne. zero.
Next, As a believer, go to china with a mission and find out first hand, if they let you, from the persecuted underground church. Don't ever reveal who they are publicly. (that is a sure death sentence).

 

[Razare]

It is actually ILLEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES, and most other countries, to heal people.

They must not enforce it. We do it at my church, and the TV ministries I watch give their healing testimonies.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They must not enforce it. We do it at my church, and the TV ministries I watch give their healing testimonies.

Well, then it must be true, if it's on TV.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They must not enforce it. We do it at my church, and the TV ministries I watch give their healing testimonies.

Okay, straight up. You probably will be mad. That's okay. That's the average response - anger.

The licensed doctor's in the united states who heal people, ARE FORBIDDEN to advertise it.
When / If the drug lords find out, they clamp down on them hard.

Some of them manage to operate "within the legal limits" somehow, for now. Until.....

They refuse to have their names publicized because the penalties have been so severe - from fines to death.

Again, some of them have managed to operate "within the legal limits", or else are just being tolerated (i.e. like you said "not enforced") for a time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When I was healed of insanity, it was a lot more useful than water walking. Yet, every day that I live free of it is like walking on water, because if I turn my eyes to the right or the left to look at the world, and take my eyes off Christ that insanity could return.

You're not alone at all. This has been seen frequently, all across the usa. By the discerning. (most people neither care nor want to get involved.)

 

[Razare]

Okay, straight up. You probably will be mad. That's okay. That's the average response - anger.

The licensed doctor's in the united states who heal people, ARE FORBIDDEN to advertise it.
When / If the drug lords find out, they clamp down on them hard.

Some of them manage to operate "within the legal limits" somehow, for now. Until.....

They refuse to have their names publicized because the penalties have been so severe - from fines to death.

Again, some of them have managed to operate "within the legal limits", or else are just being tolerated (i.e. like you said "not enforced") for a time.

You operate in the legal limits because none of the ministers I listen to who pray guarantee you will be healed.

We guarantee God heals, by faith. And faith is an intangible substance by definition in scripture. Whether you have this intangible substance or not is only something you and God know, and healing is conditional upon it, unless God exempts faith and operates by other people's faith to do signs and wonders. God exempting faith though, is never guaranteed and happens only for ministry purposes.

We can 100% guarantee how to get someone healed, but we can't guarantee they will do what is required.

Andrew Wommack has a whole section on healing testimonies and writes books about it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You operate in the legal limits because none of the ministers I listen to who pray guarantee you will be healed.

We guarantee God heals, by faith. And faith is an intangible substance by definition in scripture. Whether you have this intangible substance or not is only something you and God know, and healing is conditional upon it, unless God exempts faith and operates by other people's faith to do signs and wonders. God exempting faith though, is never guaranteed and happens only for ministry purposes.

We can 100% guarantee how to get someone healed, but we can't guarantee they will do what is required.

Andrew Wommack has a whole section on healing testimonies and writes books about it.

I guess none of the apostles had enough faith because they are all dead. Too bad.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess none of the apostles had enough faith because they are all dead. Too bad.

hahahahahahahhaha..... rolling on the floor -------- but don't worry, they are not dead, any more than lazarus or the little girl was..........