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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE Razare, post: 69740554
You operate in the legal limits because none of the ministers I listen to who pray guarantee you will be healed.
We guarantee God heals, by faith. And faith is an intangible substance by definition in scripture. Whether you have this intangible substance or not is only something you and God know, and healing is conditional upon it, unless God exempts faith and operates by other people's faith to do signs and wonders. God exempting faith though, is never guaranteed and happens only for ministry purposes.
We can 100% guarantee how to get someone healed, but we can't guarantee they will do what is required.
Andrew Wommack has a whole section on healing testimonies and writes books about it.
/QUOTE

GOOD ! (Andrew Wommack) and others like him. They have been healing people naturally spiritually and physically for a long long time (much longer than our life times).
 
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Razare

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I guess none of the apostles had enough faith because they are all dead. Too bad.

They're not dead according to scripture.

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive. - Luke 20:38

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. - 1 Thessalonians 4:14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." - John 11:11

What this implies is that when a Christian dies who will be raised in the future, their death is of a different nature to that of another person's.

Our death is the appearance of dying but is not actually dying. A Christian's body goes inert but we never die. We sleep but do not die.

This is so because what we see is not truth, because faith does not operate on what we see. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11

So if we see a dead Christian body, this is meaningless to God who calls things that are not, as though they were. A Christian is not a materialist. We see a dead body, and we believe instead that they are alive eternally if they are in Christ.

This is Christianity 101, because those who do not accept and believe the resurrection, their faith is useless.

And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. - 1 Corinthians 15:14

Implicit, and inseparable from the resurrection of Christ is the resurrection of his church for we have become 1 flesh and 1 body, and as he is, so are we. What is temporal is temporary and passes away.

A Christian's faith is that which raises us from the dead, and those that scoff at it stay dead, while a Christian's faith is proved true by God.
 
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Razare

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Ino, Ino, Ishouldn't picnit,
but really - I was sure it was the Father's Power that raises us up on the last day....

It is. Our faith always manifests the power of God, because we have no power of ourselves. Even our faith is given to us by God, but it is our faith which manifests the resurrection, our God given faith.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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They're not dead according to scripture.

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive. - Luke 20:38

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. - 1 Thessalonians 4:14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." - John 11:11

What this implies is that when a Christian dies who will be raised in the future, their death is of a different nature to that of another person's.

Our death is the appearance of dying but is not actually dying. A Christian's body goes inert but we never die. We sleep but do not die.

This is so because what we see is not truth, because faith does not operate on what we see. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11

So if we see a dead Christian body, this is meaningless to God who calls things that are not, as though they were. A Christian is not a materialist. We see a dead body, and we believe instead that they are alive eternally if they are in Christ.

This is Christianity 101, because those who do not accept and believe the resurrection, their faith is useless.

And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. - 1 Corinthians 15:14

Implicit, and inseparable from the resurrection of Christ is the resurrection of his church for we have become 1 flesh and 1 body, and as he is, so are we. What is temporal is temporary and passes away.

A Christian's faith is that which raises us from the dead, and those that scoff at it stay dead, while a Christian's faith is proved true by God.


They are dead according to your faith healer, and God wants us all healthy wealthy and prosperous according to you, right? Why should any Christian die? It's impossible to dies for a Christian with enough faith, right?

You mention 100% guaranteed healing in a previous post, and that Andrew Womack want's me well. If these statements are true, I will never die! I'm going to tell me wife this news news, although, I'm not sure that she will take it so well, as I think she had big plans for the life insurance money.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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In that case, it sounds like wof movement, which was proven false long long ago (to my satisfaction - I never gave into that).
IF it is not the wof movement, then GOOD, and perhaps GOOD and RIGHT - subject to later testing, God Willing. Healing in God's Grace is Wonderful, Joyous, Peaceful, Quietly Powerful, Emotionally Noisy Sometimes..... and Hopefully more to be seen in the near future !

re 124
 
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Razare

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You mention 100% guaranteed healing in a previous post, and that Andrew Womack want's me well. If these statements are true, I will never die!

You can die 100% healthy of natural causes. God limits man's time on earth to 120 years, it applies to a Christian. Shoot for 120 if you want, Kenneth Copeland certainly is. We're promised it from scripture.

But this is how healing works. I have been healed of 4 things. But I still wear glasses.

When I first became a Christian, the power of God hit me and my eyes started to heal, but I got into fear and unbelief and it held-up the healing.

To get full healing in all areas, and to live to 120 and die not of sickness but of natural causes, you have to exercise a degree of faith most people don't manage, not even apostles of God.

First, you have to overcome all the unbelief you have. Then you have to overcome all the unbelief society will throw at you... this one is huge. I believe it's the reason I can't manage healing to manifest in my eyes. Once, Christ healed a blind man, but the man was told not to reenter the village he had come out of... the reason being, he would go blind again because of that town's unbelief, if he went back there.

This is what happened with my eyes, they started to heal and I began thinking, "What will my mother say?" who was sitting next to me.

When people are miraculously healed, the people who think like the world... people like you, they don't praise God but they start scoffing in unbelief. They start throwing out, "How could that be possible?" <- They assume God has no power or God cares for no man.

Or they say, "You are a liar." It has happened to many people that they would lose healing because of their inability to withstand other people's unbelief.

You can live to 120 just as God promised, but you will have to overcome mountains of unbelief to do it. After you have overcome a few mountains, you understand what you're talking about and while we are promised things from scripture, seeing them come to pass is a different matter than simply what scripture says. There is God's will, and man's ability to follow God.

Jesus sent him away, saying, "Don't go back into the village on your way home." - Mark 8:26


But for example, what I have been healed of... and I will tell this to people I meet:

- All colds and flues, I no longer go through flu season or cold season. I don't believe in them. They are optional for those whom believe in them, but I don't.
- Chronic leg pain I had years before I was a Christian, I prayed for several days straight, confessing all day long they were healed, and I stood and stood despite unbelief that came at me, and then electricity went through my legs and they were healed
- Chronic heartburn.... when I had heartburn I started taking pills for it. It got worse and worse, so I said, "No more!" I spit the pills out of my mouth when I was going to take them, and I declared I was healed and I have stood since then over a year. I no longer have Chronic heartburn. When it tries to come back, I go through a round of prayers and it leaves every time.
- Mental Illness... when I became a Christian I was insane. I took pills for a couple years. I eventually was healed when I read the Bible and listened to sermons for 1 month straight, during all my free time outside work, this is what I did. I gave up TV, and focused on God and his word. At the end of the month, I was at church, and I started hallucinating terribly. I left the building when service was over, and in my car I was about to give up, but instead my heart said, "Stand firm!" So I stood and I rebuked the devil in the name of Jesus, and I have been healed ever since, over a year ago without any pills and no hallucinations.

You mentioned finances.

Since I became a Christian, I was poor... 13k annual salary at a part time job. This was 2013. It is now 2016, and I make 55k income per year, plus a large bonus. God has increased my investments that I do. 2014, I had an investment that went up 20%+ percent. This last year, I had an investment that went up over 1000% after I bought it. Why?

The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses - Deuteronomy 28:8

But a person who scoffs at the good things God provides wont see that good provision in their life, and they will have great difficulty seeing it in others, for when someone shares it as I have, what will your response be? And if your response is unbelief, then how could you ever believe it? It wouldn't be possible. The positive case for it would prove false, and so not seeing it confirms it can't happen, and likewise seeing could never prove it does happen.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Ever see an avalanche? - I think I just saw one...... sad to say....

Ever hear of William Bates ?

Everyone with and without faith, old and young, male and female, was healed by him.
(their eyesight was).

Very simple.

Naturally (in the usa) , he was blacklisted.

Oh well.
 
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Razare

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I think this might be applicable. Concerning miracles, seeing is not believing:


I have had maybe a dozen miracles happen to me, directly from God himself and I will find myself doubting them!!! If that makes any sense. It only makes sense if you deal with doubt with proper understanding, that this is the flesh tempting us to doubt God, and not a valid basis of reasoning nor faith.

John the Baptist prophesied Jesus was the lamb of God sent to take away the sins of the whole world.

Then when he was in prison, he started doubting it, because he sent men out to ask if Jesus was really the person who was to come. He began doubting the very thing he had said, and the baptism he had given Christ where he would have heard God's voice, and seen the dove descend from heaven.

This is how the miraculous works. You are tempted to doubt it.
 
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Razare

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Ever hear of William Bates ?

Everyone with and without faith, old and young, male and female, was healed by him.
(their eyesight was).

I have never studied him. If it is true, God gives signs and wonders. Signs and wonders operate along a different supernatural mechanism than what I am talking about.

I am talking about me being healed by God, without William Bates coming into my life. If I am not anointed by some special anointing of God then how am I going to be healed?

I am going to have to exercise the common faith I have, which is a faith given to Christians. Sure, you can go to the special pool to be healed, but not everyone makes it there in time. John 5 - Supernatural healing along a different mechanism than believing in Christ directly, while that healing likely sources back to Christ's power, it is only available under special conditions, such as reaching that specific pool.

I myself believe in Christ directly for healing. I can be healed of anything. It's just a matter of how much I am willing to believe.

I have been working on my eyes to manifest healing. I have lowered my prescription 1 point successfully. But I don't sit their twiddling my thumbs in a bunch of unbelief either. And if you want to do that, then go to that pool or specially anointed person and let them heal you.... sure.

You could also have me pray for you, I got enough faith to see others healed. Been doing it with family members who are in my sphere of authority. God has been healing them too. It's working far better than what I was told by WoF people that I come from, so I think even they got a bunch of unbelief about it. You just pray in authority, and if you got the authority the devil fails, and that is that.

Make me king of the world and put everyone under my authority and I'll see all you guys healed by what God gave me. I'm nothing great, I just know that I'm not great and he doesn't do it because I'm great. As it stands, I am limited to spheres of authority.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Most of the time it doesn't take any special person, anointed or not.
You just have to know what to do.
If you do what is right, you stay well or get healed. (almost always, better than 75% of the time).

If you do what is wrong, you suffer for it. Like God told Cain.
 
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hedrick

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You asked specifically about Paul.

I would say that Paul intends the type of experience he had as normative. But the question is, what type of experience are we talking about?

Pentecostal-type experiences are referenced in 1 Cor 12, but he never teaches them as normative, and in fact kind of downplays them at the end of the chapter.

Miracles of healing are common in the Gospels, but not referred to by Paul. He speaks of various types of healing in 1 Cor 12, but not otherwise. Thiselton comments:

“Healers are given varied gifts at varied times for varied tasks, and we should not impose a post-eighteenth-century dualism of “natural” and “supernatural” upon the ways in which God chooses to use, or not to use, regular physical means.75 As the Pentecostalist writer Donald Gee points out in relation to the Pastoral Epistles, in 1 Tim 5:23 Paul (or a Pauline writer) enjoins Timothy to gain healing of the stomach by drinking wine rather than the more dubious water supply but in 2 Tim 4:10 he leaves Trophimus sick at Miletus.76 The illness of Epaphroditus is also mentioned (Phil 2:27).”

If you want to ask whether we currently embody Paul’s experience, I think you need to ask what the presence of the Holy Spirit meant for him. (I looked for Holy Spirit, so I could have missed references that use only Spirit, but I think this is a large enough sample to get the sense.) From his letters.

In Rom, it pours God’s love, confirms his witness, brings peace and joy, hope, and sanctifies the offers of the Gentiles.

In 1 Cor our body is its temple, so we need to be careful what we do; it enables us to say “Jesus is Lord.”

In 2 Cor he refers to the communion of the Holy Spirit, which I understand unites the people.

In Eph, people who heard with Gospel were marked with the Holy Spirit, the mystery of Christ is revealed by the Spirit; the Holy Spirit is grieved by evil talk, bitterness, wrath, etc.

In 1 Thes, the Gospel came with the power of the Holy Spirit, it inspired joy.

These are all things that I think should occur today.

For Paul, Christianity was not just an intellectual exercise, nor a collection of ethics. The core of it was being “in Christ.” I think we can expect Christians to be in Christ, and to experience the kinds of things just quoted from Paul.

You are a Presbyterian. The heart of Calvin's message in the Institutes was what he called the "mystical union" with Christ. I believe this is the same thing.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Since I became a Christian, I was poor... 13k annual salary at a part time job. This was 2013. It is now 2016, and I make 55k income per year, plus a large bonus. God has increased my investments that I do. 2014, I had an investment that went up 20%+ percent. This last year, I had an investment that went up over 1000% after I bought it. Why?

Every single one of these things happens to people who are atheists. Your "faith" does not explain this.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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For Paul, Christianity was not just an intellectual exercise, nor a collection of ethics. The core of it was being “in Christ.” I think we can expect Christians to be in Christ, and to experience the kinds of things just quoted from Paul.

You are a Presbyterian. The heart of Calvin's message in the Institutes was what he called the "mystical union" with Christ. I believe this is the same thing.

Union with Christ is what it's all about.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It's circular logic, the instance of experiencing God like in the Apostolic age related to a quality of faith or trusting in God like the kingdom was their only reality. Today's church is far removed from that kind of faith, and because the events aren't happening this lessens the idea that it's even possible to the minds of the people thus creating an atmosphere of negative faith so for that to happen, the faith would need to be even stronger in this age to make it happen.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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It's circular logic, the instance of experiencing God like in the Apostolic age related to a quality of faith or trusting in God like the kingdom was their only reality. Today's church is far removed from that kind of faith, and because the events aren't happening this lessens the idea that it's even possible to the minds of the people thus creating an atmosphere of negative faith so for that to happen, the faith would need to be even stronger in this age to make it happen.

So, if I were to boil down what you are saying, it's: We just need more faith. Am I correct?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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So, if I were to boil down what you are saying, it's: We just need more faith. Am I correct?

It's not really that simple. Faith tends to be treated as "willpower" when the greek word it is translated from is "trust" . The key may be intimacy with God and one another.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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thatbrian said:
Can we expect what was normative for the Apostle Paul or other prominent figures during the initial stages of building the church to be our personal experience today?

Are we to read historical accounts as prescriptive instruction? In other words, just because something happened in history does that necessarily mean it will continue to happen, and happen to us? Are we to read this as history, or are we to write ourselves into the texts?
No. Whereas I believe I could call down lightning IF directed by God to do so, as of this writing He hasn't. Nor have I ever been directed to walk on water - although that may have been handy (in my viewpoint) on one or two instances.

I have done CPR on occasion. One fellow lived and the other one died. Which indicates my 'touch' isn't enough by itself.

In short, I've never 'had the call' to be a 'faith healer'. I've seen some really strange things (miracles?) happen, but never infallibly and 'on command'. And never as a result of one person consistently. By the same token, I've never been smuggled out of a city being lowered over the wall in a basket, either. Never been shipwrecked, either; can't say I've missed it.

I do what I am directed by Almighty God to do. Anything else is what the late Douglas Adams referred to as an "SEP".

Someone else's problem.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I have never studied him. If it is true, God gives signs and wonders. Signs and wonders operate along a different supernatural mechanism than what I am talking about.

I am talking about me being healed by God, without William Bates coming into my life. If I am not anointed by some special anointing of God then how am I going to be healed?
"signs and wonders" ??
No "special anointing" was needed nor sought.
Simply God's design (of the eyes and body and nervous system)
and what methods there are to heal them , naturally, simply, inexpensively.

Simple, experiential healing(took 30 minutes to 2 years). Worked for everyone who came to him, and for most people* who used his or any similar method as he taught and a dozen or more eye doctors taught around the world.

*pilots in particular, who wanted 20/20 uncorrected vision with no surgery or drugs.
 
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