.

[Righttruth]

Nope,same story....

That is when you don't differentiate between Word, birth, death, resurrection and ascension.

 

[Biblicist]

None of the chosen apostle called Paul an apostle. There can be only twelve apostles.

When it came to the Twelve who were commissioned by Christ (eventually with Matthias and not Judas), their role as the eyewittnesses to the person and ministry of Christ will always be unique. As Paul was also personally called and commissioned as an Apostle-of-Christ, then he is also an Apostle, but he is not one of the Twelve. On 8 occassions Paul refers to himself as being an Apostle-of-Christ and in Rom 1:1 he also infers to this.

In Gal 2:6-9 Paul informs us that he was recognised by James Peter and John to be equal to their calling as Apostles-of-Christ:

6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)-- well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.
7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised
8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),
9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

 

[Biblicist]

Can we expect what was normative for the Apostle Paul, or other prominent figures during the initial stages of building the church to be our personal experience today?

Are we to read historical accounts as prescriptive instruction? In other words, just because something happened in history does that necessarily mean it will continue to happen, and happen to us? Are we to read this as history, or are we to write ourselves into the texts?

Some examples:

• Peter walked on water, so I can walk on water.
• Tongues of fire came down upon the apostles, so tongues of fire should come down on me.
• People were healed by touching a piece of cloth that Paul had touched, so I can pray over a handkerchief and people will be healed by touching it.

With the three examples that you have referred to, with Peter, his ability to walk on water was enabled as Jesus was physically standing in front of him and Peter also received a direct command which was witnessed by others; so this type of activity can be deemed to be unusual and most likely unrepeatable. If Jesus had of instructed Peter to fly around the boat then this would be a legitimate exercise but it would also be something that we would not deem to be repeatable.

With the tongues of fire that fell upon the Apostles (actually the 120), as the tongues of fire and the sound of a rushing wind accompanied the inaugural giving of the Holy Spirit to the 120 (and the Church), then these two events would also be deemed to be unrepeatable.

With the handkerchiefs and aprons that were taken from Paul where they were used to heal the sick and deliver some from evil spirits, this could be a repeatable event but we need to keep in mind that Acts 19:11 informs us that it was the Father who was directly responsible for the extraordinary powers that Paul was enabled to work so it was not the Holy Spirit who was the agent.

As the Father was the agency of these extraordinary powers, this means that whereas the Holy Spirit can and does outwork through the individual Believer (as per 1Cor 12:8-11) today, as the case that you have referred was an action of the Father and not the Holy Spirit then this type of activity can still certainly happen but it is definitely the prerogative of the Father to do so where we most likely have very little to say in the matter.

As for what the crowd saw on the Day of Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit fell upon the 120 with the evidence of speaking in tongues, then this is definitely a repeatable event which Peter speaks of in Acts 2:38-39, where it has been established for all time or at least up until the Lord returns.

(Act 2:38-39 NASB) 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."​

 

[Righttruth]

When it came to the Twelve who were commissioned by Christ (eventually with Matthias and not Judas), their role as the eyewittnesses to the person and ministry of Christ will always be unique.

Right

As Paul was also personally called and commissioned as an Apostle-of-Christ,

Not as an apostle but as a 'chosen instrument'. Apostleship was his claim like many others. There cannot be more than 12 apostles, living, to continue the ministry immediately after the ascension of Jesus.

then he is also an Apostle, but he is not one of the Twelve. On 8 occassions Paul refers to himself as being an Apostle-of-Christ and in Rom 1:1 he also infers to this.

In Gal 2:6-9 Paul informs us that he was recognised by James Peter and John to be equal to their calling as Apostles-of-Christ:

6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)-- well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.
7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised
8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),
9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

Proof on his claim cannot be based on his own claim!

 

[stephen583]

(Act 2:38-39 NASB) 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Which in my opinion begs a relevant question. Where IS the evidence today of the miracles of the Holy Spirit ?! If as so many churches today proclaim they are the "REAL" and only "ONE" Church of God... Where's the PROOF ???

I've been a Christian my entire life, (I'm pushing 60 now) and I've NEVER witnessed anything that I would call a "supernatural" event in ANY church. Yes. I've seen people fall on the floor, kicking their legs and foaming at the mouth in Pentecostal and Nazarene Churches. My sister speaks in tongues... "Slamma Lamma Ding Dong" !!! Whatever that means ???

I've seen people pick up rattlesnakes without getting bit, but you can see the same trick performed at the "Rattle-Snake Round-Up" in Midland, Texas every year where a guy laying in a bathtub has dozens of live rattlers poured over him. Any herpetologist will tell you rattle snakes are actually disoriented when they're moved, or handled. It's a carnival trick. (Hint). Don't crawl into a tub already filled with rattle snakes that have been there for the last couple of hours. You'll get bit. It is a courageous, (and maybe foolhardy) demonstration of snake behavior, but hardly what you would call a miracle.

The only miracle I can say I ever personally witnessed happened while I was working as a Sheriff's Deputy. A small compact car was hit in a railroad crossing on BrownsVillage Road. The crossing was notoriously dangerous. Terrible accidents happened there all the time. As I pulled up and saw the mangled and smashed remains of the automobile, (much of it reduced to pieces), I asked a bystander, "Where are the bodies" ?

A black man (seemingly in shock) raised his arm and pointed to a woman standing nearby with an infant. Neither appeared to have a scratch on them. The seat of the car had been ejected along with the car door when the train struck the vehicle. The bolts holding the seat had been snapped clean off at the floorboard, both mother and baby strapped to the car seat landed safely some 50 feet away from the crash. Later when I wrote the report, I attributed their survival to an "Act of God".

I don't know anything about apparitions of the Virgin Mary, floating lights, or statues of saints bleeding from the eyes and hands... I've NEVER witnessed anything like that in a Church, or anywhere else either. I suppose such reported supernatural events could be explained by hypnotic suggestion, mass hysteria, or mass hallucination. However, these explanations can't account for what I saw at the BrownsVillage Road RR crossing that day.

This event did not take place in a church. Nor did the woman involved attribute her survival or the childs' to a miracle of God. "Is Church "Optional" ?! In this particular case, it very definitely was optional.

 

[Biblicist]

Right

Not as an apostle but as a 'chosen instrument'. Apostleship was his claim like many others. There cannot be more than 12 apostles, living, to continue the ministry immediately after the ascension of Jesus.

Proof on his claim cannot be based on his own claim!

Once we hold to the view that Paul is a fraud, for those who hold to this particular position, then the entirety of the testimony of the Word of God collapses. As Paul has demonstrated that his calling, as an Apostle-of-Christ, was handed to him by the Son himself on the Damascus Road, where we also find the Twelve recognising his unique commissioning then as we have the testimony of the Apostles and the early Church itself as a witness, then how can anyone challenge his commissioning by Christ?

 

[Biblicist]

Which in my opinion begs a relevant question. Where IS the evidence today of the miracles of the Holy Spirit ?! If as so many churches today proclaim they are the "REAL" and only "ONE" Church of God... Where's the PROOF ???

I've been a Christian my entire life, (I'm pushing 60 now) and I've NEVER witnessed anything that I would call a "supernatural" event in ANY church. Yes. I've seen people fall on the floor, kicking their legs and foaming at the mouth in Pentecostal and Nazarene Churches. My sister speaks in tongues... "Slamma Lamma Ding Dong" !!! Whatever that means ???

I've seen people pick up rattlesnakes without getting bit, but you can see the same trick performed at the "Rattle-Snake Round-Up" in Midland, Texas every year where a guy laying in a bathtub has dozens of live rattlers poured over him. Any herpetologist will tell you rattle snakes are actually disoriented when they're moved, or handled. It's a carnival trick. (Hint). Don't crawl into a tub already filled with rattle snakes that have been there for the last couple of hours. You'll get bit. It is a courageous, (and maybe foolhardy) demonstration of snake behavior, but hardly what you would call a miracle.

The only miracle I can say I ever personally witnessed happened while I was working as a Sheriff's Deputy. A small compact car was hit in a railroad crossing on BrownsVillage Road. The crossing was notoriously dangerous. Terrible accidents happened there all the time. As I pulled up and saw the mangled and smashed remains of the automobile, (much of it reduced to pieces), I asked a bystander, "Where are the bodies" ?

A black man (seemingly in shock) raised his arm and pointed to a woman standing nearby with an infant. Neither appeared to have a scratch on them. The seat of the car had been ejected along with the car door when the train struck the vehicle. The bolts holding the seat had been snapped clean off at the floorboard, both mother and baby strapped to the car seat landed safely some 50 feet away from the crash. Later when I wrote the report, I attributed their survival to an "Act of God".

I don't know anything about apparitions of the Virgin Mary, floating lights, or statues of saints bleeding from the eyes and hands... I've NEVER witnessed anything like that in a Church, or anywhere else either. I suppose such reported supernatural events could be explained by hypnotic suggestion, mass hysteria, or mass hallucination. However, these explanations can't account for what I saw at the BrownsVillage Road RR crossing that day.

This event did not take place in a church. Nor did the woman involved attribute her survival or the childs' to a miracle of God. "Is Church "Optional" ?! In this particular case, it very definitely was optional.

Does it really matter what you have or haven't seen; are we to judge the Word of God by our senses, where if we have not observed something then the Word cannot be true and are we to be like Thomas where we will only believe in His testimony if we can touch the wounds in his side?

We need to avoid judging God's Word by what we may or may not have observed, if you or I or anyone else for that matter has never seen any discernible evidence of either the Power of God or of the Holy Spirit, then we are to go to the Word to see what it has to say and then we are to go to the Lord and ask how we can be better Servants by allowing oursleves to be obedient to his Word.

 

[Righttruth]

Once we hold to the view that Paul is a fraud, for those who hold to this particular position, then the entirety of the testimony of the Word of God collapses. As Paul has demonstrated that his calling, as an Apostle-of-Christ, was handed to him by the Son himself on the Damascus Road, where we also find the Twelve recognising his unique commissioning then as we have the testimony of the Apostles and the early Church itself as a witness, then how can anyone challenge his commissioning by Christ?

I am not questioning the commissioning of him by Jesus. I am questioning the short cuts he took for convenience against the preaching and commissioning by Christ. Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul?

 

[Biblicist]

I am not questioning the commissioning of him by Jesus. I am questioning the short cuts he took for convenience against the preaching and commissioning by Christ. Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul?

It could be that we are looking at the issue from different perspectives? As Paul was commissioned by Jesus as an Apostle-of-Christ and that the James (not an Apostle but the president of the Council of Jerusalem) and the Apostles Peter and John acknowledged his calling as an Apostle then I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you mean.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[stephen583]

Does it really matter what you have or haven't seen

Yes. To me it does. The Scripture says, "By their fruits you shall recognize them" (Matthew 7:16). Jesus also said of his servants, "Very truly I tell you, whosoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing", (John 14:12). So the question stands... Where's the Beef ?!

The comedian Steve Martin made a 2003 movie dealing with this paradox in which he plays a fraudulent faith healer who goes from town to town bilking the poor out of what little money they have to fund his criminal road show. This situation continues until the fraud preacher "Jonas Nightingale" is confronted by the genuine article, (an actual miracle of God no one can possibly have faked). Although the movie is a work of fiction, it is based on actual cases where travelling faith healers and evangelist types collected money from unwitting crowds at "tent" type revivals in twentieth century throughout America. In some cases miracles were falsely fabricated as part of these criminal enterprises.

The other thing that bothers me about organized religion is its' seemingly inexhaustible determination to establish rites and customs which appear to go directly against what Jesus taught. For instance, the RCC, Orthodox and Protestant Churches all practice some form of "water" christening, or baptism. I suppose this in accordance with the tradition established by John the Baptist. However, as indicated in post #83 by "Biblicist", Jesus proclaimed he had come to baptize in the "Holy Spirit" of God, (Acts 2:38-39).

It seems to me, the act of water baptism established by John the Baptist (which was just an outward sign of commitment to serve God and reformation) was eclipsed by Jesus baptizing his followers with the Holy Spirit itself. Why then does organized religion revert to water baptism as though Christ never existed ?! Isn't that a refutation of the Gospel of Christ ???

What about organized religions historical amalgamy of pagan rites into the religion of Christianity ??? Adopting Christmas (the Winter Solstice) as Christ's traditional birth day, or Easter (the Spring Solstice) as the Resurrection day of Christ. As well as the RCC changing laws and customs, such as the Sabbath Day occurring on Saturday, not Sunday.

So I think the question stands... "Does REAL Christianity even exist anymore" ??? Where's the Beef ???

 

[stephen583]

Does it really matter what you have or haven't seen

Yes. To me it does. The Scripture says, "By their fruits you shall recognize them" (Matthew 7:16). Jesus also said of his servants, "Very truly I tell you, whosoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing", (John 14:12). So the question stands... Where's the Beef ?!

The comedian Steve Martin made a 2003 movie dealing with this paradox in which he plays a fraudulent faith healer who goes from town to town bilking the poor out of what little money they have to fund his criminal road show. This situation continues until the fraud preacher "Jonas Nightingale" is confronted by the genuine article, (an actual miracle of God no one can possibly have faked). Although the movie is a work of fiction, it is based on actual cases where travelling faith healers and evangelist types collected money from unwitting crowds at "tent" type revivals in twentieth century throughout America. In some cases miracles were falsely fabricated as part of these criminal enterprises.

The other thing that bothers me about organized religion is its' seemingly inexhaustible determination to establish rites and customs which appear to go directly against what Jesus taught. For instance, the RCC, Orthodox and Protestant Churches all practice some form of "water" christening, or baptism. I suppose this in accordance with the tradition established by John the Baptist. However, as indicated in post #83 by "Biblicist", Jesus proclaimed he had come to baptize in the "Holy Spirit" of God, (Acts 2:38-39).

It seems to me, the act of water baptism established by John the Baptist (which was just an outward sign of commitment to serve God and reformation) was eclipsed by Jesus baptizing his followers with the Holy Spirit itself. Why then does organized religion revert to water baptism as though Christ never existed ?! Isn't that a refutation of the Gospel of Christ ???

What about organized religions historical amalgamy of pagan rites into the religion of Christianity ??? Adopting Christmas (the Winter Solstice) as Christ's traditional birth day, or Easter (the Spring Solstice) as the Resurrection day of Christ. As well as the RCC changing laws and customs, such as the Sabbath Day occurring on Saturday, not Sunday.

So I think the question stands... "Does REAL Christianity even exist anymore" ??? Where's the Beef ???

 

[stephen583]

Sorry about the duplication of posts. Bad weather here now. Poor WIFI connection.

 

[Righttruth]

It could be that we are looking at the issue from different perspectives? As Paul was commissioned by Jesus as an Apostle-of-Christ and that the James (not an Apostle but the president of the Council of Jerusalem) and the Apostles Peter and John acknowledged his calling as an Apostle then I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you mean.

I reiterate that Paul was never commissioned by Jesus as an apostle. Jesus specifically chose 12 to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Did Paul have his own tribe? There are only 12 foundations of apostles in heaven. Do you think Paul will sit on the lap of Peter there? Let not tail decide on the function of the body.

 

[Righttruth]

Yes. To me it does. The Scripture says, "By their fruits you shall recognize them" (Matthew 7:16). Jesus also said of his servants, "Very truly I tell you, whosoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing", (John 14:12). So the question stands... Where's the Beef ?!

The comedian Steve Martin made a 2003 movie dealing with this paradox in which he plays a fraudulent faith healer who goes from town to town bilking the poor out of what little money they have to fund his criminal road show. This situation continues until the fraud preacher "Jonas Nightingale" is confronted by the genuine article, (an actual miracle of God no one can possibly have faked). Although the movie is a work of fiction, it is based on actual cases where travelling faith healers and evangelist types collected money from unwitting crowds at "tent" type revivals in twentieth century throughout America. In some cases miracles were falsely fabricated as part of these criminal enterprises.

The other thing that bothers me about organized religion is its' seemingly inexhaustible determination to establish rites and customs which appear to go directly against what Jesus taught. For instance, the RCC, Orthodox and Protestant Churches all practice some form of "water" christening, or baptism. I suppose this in accordance with the tradition established by John the Baptist. However, as indicated in post #83 by "Biblicist", Jesus proclaimed he had come to baptize in the "Holy Spirit" of God, (Acts 2:38-39).

It seems to me, the act of water baptism established by John the Baptist (which was just an outward sign of commitment to serve God and reformation) was eclipsed by Jesus baptizing his followers with the Holy Spirit itself. Why then does organized religion revert to water baptism as though Christ never existed ?! Isn't that a refutation of the Gospel of Christ ???

What about organized religions historical amalgamy of pagan rites into the religion of Christianity ??? Adopting Christmas (the Winter Solstice) as Christ's traditional birth day, or Easter (the Spring Solstice) as the Resurrection day of Christ. As well as the RCC changing laws and customs, such as the Sabbath Day occurring on Saturday, not Sunday.

So I think the question stands... "Does REAL Christianity even exist anymore" ??? Where's the Beef ???

You have Paul's appendix!

 

[Biblicist]

I reiterate that Paul was never commissioned by Jesus as an apostle. Jesus specifically chose 12 to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Did Paul have his own tribe? There are only 12 foundations of apostles in heaven. Do you think Paul will sit on the lap of Peter there? Let not tail decide on the function of the body.

Back in your post #88 you first said “I am not questioning the commissioning of him by Jesus” which is why your subsequent post confused me; where in post #94 you said “I reiterate that Paul was never commissioned by Jesus as an apostle” which goes in opposition to your earlier post.

From the Book of Acts up until Peters letters we find the Scriptures acknowledging who Paul is, where Peter himself goes onto say in 2Pe 3:16 about Paul,

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

In the proceeding verse Peter refers to Paul by saying, "just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you"; where we are also well advised to listen to Paul as a commissioned Apostle-of-Christ.

Peter remarks in 3:16 "as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction", where Peter is making reference to Pauls detractors - where Peters words are as relevant today as they were almost 2000 years ago.

 

[Biblicist]

Which in my opinion begs a relevant question. Where IS the evidence today of the miracles of the Holy Spirit ?! If as so many churches today proclaim they are the "REAL" and only "ONE" Church of God... Where's the PROOF ???

At least your honest in that your are admitting that you are judging the Word of God by what you may or may not have wittnessed, where as I have previously said, this is the same approach that Thomas took regarding the appearance of Jesus.

When I first came to the Lord as a teenager (within a cessationist setting), I never saw any observable power of the Holy Spirit. As I was heavily involved in our cities youth scene I was able to see a lot of what was happening within the Evangelical side of the fence; this only started to be a bit of an issue for me once I began to get through my New Testament, as I was beginning to read about the historical church of the few decades that was walking mightily in power. As I could not see why these things were supposed to have stopped, it created a tension within me, whereas just like you I could see that the NT Church was powerful but I was unable to observe any such power within my circle of association.

This was before satellite TV and the Internet (but we did have colour TV), so it was a bit harder to keep abreast of what was happening within the church worldwide, but then I started buying books about these Pentecostals and charismatics and eventually I was invited to a FGBMFI meeting where my world was essentially turned upside down.

So I have certainly seen the power of the Holy Spirit work mightily, though I cannot recall ever seeing the Power of God working but that is another matter. We had a testimony a couple of years back where a doctor in Kalgoolie Western Australia had died and from memory he came back to life several hours later after he was prayed for. This is one of those cases where as a doctor who worked in a large hospital, he was able to garner a copious amount of documentation to demonstrate that his being brought back to life was nothing less than by the power of God.

I've been a Christian my entire life, (I'm pushing 60 now) and I've NEVER witnessed anything that I would call a "supernatural" event in ANY church. Yes. I've seen people fall on the floor, kicking their legs and foaming at the mouth in Pentecostal and Nazarene Churches. My sister speaks in tongues... "Slamma Lamma Ding Dong" !!! Whatever that means ???

Having been in Pentecost since 1974 I have wittnessed both first hand and by testimony the power of the Holy Spirit, where even with prophecy alone the outworking of the Holy Spirit has demonstrated that the Jesus is the same today as he was yesterday, and this goes for the Father and the Holy Spirit as well.

I don't know anything about apparitions of the Virgin Mary, floating lights, or statues of saints bleeding from the eyes and hands... I've NEVER witnessed anything like that in a Church, or anywhere else either. I suppose such reported supernatural events could be explained by hypnotic suggestion, mass hysteria, or mass hallucination. However, these explanations can't account for what I saw at the BrownsVillage Road RR crossing that day.

These types of claims can be quickly and summarily dismissed as being bogus.

 

[stephen583]

At least your honest in that your are admitting that you are judging the Word of God by what you may or may not have wittnessed, where as I have previously said, this is the same approach that Thomas took regarding the appearance of Jesus.

You'll notice in the story of Thomas, Jesus DID NOT reproach Thomas for his skepticism. He didn't proclaim Thomas was unworthy of being called a disciple of Christ either. All the disciples had already demonstrated their lack of belief in the power of God when they ran away and hid themselves in fear during the arrest and crucifixion of Christ. Peter denied he was a follower of Jesus three times. In point of fact, when Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, the door to the house they were in was LOCKED when Jesus stepped through it. His disciples were still in HIDING and FEARFUL for their lives.

According to Scriptural accounts, Jesus took Thomas' hand and placed his finger in his wounds. I'm not sure if this is where the words "Blessed are those who having not seen, yet believe" originated from... Correct me if I'm wrong, but these words may have been written later on by one of the Apostles of Christ. Either way, I imagine the words are probably meant to be relevant to the story of Thomas.

The idea Thomas was any more incredulous than any of the other disciples is drawn from pure conjecture. The Bible doesn't say what any of the other disciples were thinking when the resurrected Jesus stepped through the door. It's just as plausible, most of them were thinking exactly the same thing Thomas was. Mary Magdalene appears to be the only follower of Christ who recognized him instantly by sight after he was "resurrected".

So I see the story of Thomas in an entirely different light than almost everyone else who reads it does. In all likelihood, had I been present there, I probably would have acted exactly like Thomas did... Does that make me a bad Christian or an unbeliever ?! I don't believe so, any more than when Moses exiled from Egypt climbed Mount Sinai because he would "See proof of this invisible God who dwelt on the mountain".

If Moses was acting wrongly, then the prohibition that anyone who set foot on Mount Sinai would surely die, would have been carried out instantly. Instead, Moses did meet with God. If we are to associate skepticism with unrighteousness, then Moses was every bit as culpable as Thomas was.

I know this much. I'm not a "mind reader". I can only judge people by their actions and what I see. I've heard many words, promises, oaths and proclamations in my lifetime... and most of them were broken, or conveniently forgotten when they were most important to remember. That seems to be human nature, to speak with the tongue and not from the heart.

 

[Righttruth]

Back in your post #88 you first said “I am not questioning the commissioning of him by Jesus” which is why your subsequent post confused me; where in post #94 you said “I reiterate that Paul was never commissioned by Jesus as an apostle” which goes in opposition to your earlier post.

I mean Jesus commissioned Paul as a 'chosen vessel', not as an apostle since the number 12 for apostleship was complete.

From the Book of Acts up until Peters letters we find the Scriptures acknowledging who Paul is,

Only Luke acknowledges Paul as an apostle. But you see both Paul and Luke were not aware of Jesus' specific calling of certain disciples as apostles as they were not part of the ministry of Jesus. So Luke's source cannot be a sound, supporting and substantiate claim for the apostleship of Paul.

where Peter himself goes onto say in 2Pe 3:16 about Paul,

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.In the proceeding verse Peter refers to Paul by saying, "just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you"; where we are also well advised to listen to Paul as a commissioned Apostle-of-Christ.​

Though the authorship of 2nd Peter is doubtful; nevertheless, there also Peter doesn't call Paul an apostle.​

Peter remarks in 3:16 "as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction", where Peter is making reference to Pauls detractors - where Peters words are as relevant today as they were almost 2000 years ago.

Therefore, any part of Paul's letters that don't complement Jesus' words need to be checked with other sources; otherwise, they are bound to ferment concepts that lead to destruction. It is happenings all the time leading to thousands of denominations in tune with Paul's thinking and claims.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Had miracle healings in my life.
Examples...eyesight, blood

while praying at home

Do you have eye exams and/or blood tests, before and after?