.

[jimmyjimmy]

thatbrian, I think that you are overestimating your illumination of scripture and elevating yourself above the vast cloud of witnesses who have claimed to hear the voice of God while serving him in faithfulness, maturity, and power.

While they have done great deeds for Christ, all you have is your opinion.

Thanks for the insult and accusation; however, I have not elevated myself above anyone, and more importantly, I have not not elevated myself above the written Word of God.

It appears to me, judging by holy scripture, my ultimate authority, that it's some from the very group which claims these miraculous deeds, who are left outside of the kingdom. I don't see Jesus rejecting any who claim to trust His word, but those who you might possibly hold in high esteem for their deeds, which are told, "Depart from me".

Also, following your logic, I would celebrate the work of Joel Osteen. . .

Truth is not determined nor confirmed by one's deeds. Truth comes to us from outside ourselves. It is both determined and conformed by God Himself.

"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
​

I, and others, have presented biblical arguments to which you have countered with the deeds of men. To say that you have not made a convincing case, would be an understatement.

 

[Arsenios]

This is so overlooked. It's called m a t u r i t y.

My former pastor (Tim Keller NYC) had this to say about decision making (this is my recollection of what he said, not a direct quote). I think that this drives the point home very well.

But what happens is that as time goes and you commit yourself to the Lord your plans become better and better, wiser and wiser.

In sum, commit your life completely to the Lord and start making decisions.

But what if I do not have peace about it. I need to know God’s will! Which one do I choose? Why doesn’t God just tell us what to do?

Because God wants you to become wise. It does not take any wisdom if you are told to do everything.

Imagine you are 4 years old and you ask your dad to go out and play and he says okay, but only over here and not for too long because we are going to have dinner soon.​

Now fast forward the clock and imagine you’re here at GW in college. You call your dad and ask him, “Dad, there are some guys out in U Yard playing frisbee. I was just wondering if I could go out and play.”

And he would say, “What is wrong with you? You know how much work you have. I do not know.”

“But Dad I just want you to make the decision for me.”

Now there are parents out there who want their children to be that dependent on them, but God is not one of them. He wants you to be like him. Make a decision!​

​

Brian - Thank-you for this. It was enormously helpful. For the life of me, I was not understanding your reluctance to affirm what is so obviously Scriptural and true. I knew it had to be found in your love for God, but it just did not occur to me that you were understanding maturity in the faith, being perfected in the Faith, to mean what it does in maturity in the world...

You said that God does not want us to be THAT dependent on Him, as little children are on their parents, needing permission to do things that they should be doing by now without permission... I could not disagree more... How many times does John address his followers as "Little children..."? Techni in the Greek... It is all the time... The whole of discipleship is comprised in denial of self - A willing denial of self will... And yes, within that, one will gain competence and discernment and hopefully Christian virtues in which one may persevere to the end... And there is, to be sure, a sobriety and self-possession in that maturity... But even those with Apostolic Gifts are led by the Holy Spirit in their ministries - Paul among them... And within the "closet" of their prayers, you simply have no idea what they do...

Gotta run...

Thanks again...

A.

 

[sunlover1]

This is so overlooked. It's called m a t u r i t y.

My former pastor (Tim Keller NYC) had this to say about decision making (this is my recollection of what he said, not a direct quote). I think that this drives the point home very well.

But what happens is that as time goes and you commit yourself to the Lord your plans become better and better, wiser and wiser.

In sum, commit your life completely to the Lord and start making decisions.

But what if I do not have peace about it. I need to know God’s will! Which one do I choose? Why doesn’t God just tell us what to do?

Because God wants you to become wise. It does not take any wisdom if you are told to do everything.

Imagine you are 4 years old and you ask your dad to go out and play and he says okay, but only over here and not for too long because we are going to have dinner soon.​

Now fast forward the clock and imagine you’re here at GW in college. You call your dad and ask him, “Dad, there are some guys out in U Yard playing frisbee. I was just wondering if I could go out and play.”

And he would say, “What is wrong with you? You know how much work you have. I do not know.”

“But Dad I just want you to make the decision for me.”

Now there are parents out there who want their children to be that dependent on them, but God is not one of them. He wants you to be like him. Make a decision!​

​

He sure does, and thankfully He's SO patient for those
of us who are so broken and traumatized that making
even simple decisions is terrifying. But He holds our
hands, as we learn and grow in all areas. Each person
needing all of Him all day long.
And He also wants us to rely on Him for direction.
in ALL of our ways... so that HE can direct our path.
And we're to grow up in Him, in spiritual things.
So that it's no longer me who lives, but Christ in me,
the hope of Glory.
Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because
whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Good food for thought today!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Brian - Thank-you for this. It was enormously helpful. For the life of me, I was not understanding your reluctance to affirm what is so obviously Scriptural and true. I knew it had to be found in your love for God, but it just did not occur to me that you were understanding maturity in the faith, being perfected in the Faith, to mean what it does in maturity in the world...

You said that God does not want us to be THAT dependent on Him, as little children are on their parents, needing permission to do things that they should be doing by now without permission... I could not disagree more... How many times does John address his followers as "Little children..."? Techni in the Greek... It is all the time... The whole of discipleship is comprised in denial of self - A willing denial of self will... And yes, within that, one will gain competence and discernment and hopefully Christian virtues in which one may persevere to the end... And there is, to be sure, a sobriety and self-possession in that maturity... But even those with Apostolic Gifts are led by the Holy Spirit in their ministries - Paul among them... And within the "closet" of their prayers, you simply have no idea what they do...

Gotta run...

Thanks again...

A.

Your rebuttals are often filled with venom, yet not often much scripture.

John using a term of endearment does not a doctrinal statement make. A mature mind would understand that, no?

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Cor. 13:11)

 

[swordsman1]

John using a term of endearment does not a doctrinal statement make. A mature mind would understand that, no?

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Cor. 13:11)

And what was Paul describing as the childish things? Prophecy and words of knowledge no less. If he regards those legitimate methods of revelation as childish, what must he think of today's unscriptural "God told me via my feelings" idea? Babes in arms I should imagine.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And what was Paul describing as the childish things? Prophecy and words of knowledge no less. If he regards those legitimate methods of revelation as childish, what must he think of today's unscriptural "God told me via my feelings" idea? Babes in arms I should imagine.

Thanks for adding that. I should have thought of that myself, as it was an excellent point.

 

[sunlover1]

Your rebuttals are often filled with venom, yet not often much scripture.

John using a term of endearment does not a doctrinal statement make. A mature mind would understand that, no?

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Cor. 13:11)

And what was Paul describing as the childish things? Prophecy and words of knowledge no less. If he regards those legitimate methods of revelation as childish, what must he think of today's unscriptural "God told me via my feelings" idea? Babes in arms I should imagine.

Nah, that's only part of the story.
He did talk to God and hear from God.

 

[sunlover1]

Thanks for adding that. I should have thought of that myself, as it was an excellent point.

I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;...
But he also was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than all of them,
even though he'd rather speak from his mind in church.
Nevertheless, he's not trying to say that spiritual gifts are bad!
GOD came up with the ideas of giving us manifestation of the
Spirit guys!!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;...
But he also was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than all of them,
even though he'd rather speak from his mind in church.
Nevertheless, he's not trying to say that spiritual gifts are bad!
GOD came up with the ideas of giving us manifestation of the
Spirit guys!!

That's a subject for another thread. . .

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

You look at the result of his work in Taiwan, but you don't consider the people of China. Could they not have used a missionary with some guts in 1872? What the fruit of that would have been, we will never know. . .

Just lurking here, but it strikes me as exceedingly ironic that a statement like this would come from someone using a picture of John Calvin as his avatar.

Of course, it also strikes me as ironic that someone would claim to adhere strictly to the teachings of the Bible, to the complete exclusion of all special revelation, despite the fact that the primary theme of the Bible is that very same special revelation. Paul told us to pursue prophecy, but we reject prophecy on the grounds that we only accept the words of Paul (et al.). In so doing, we reject the words of Paul under the guise of accepting them. I can't imagine what you hope to accomplish by this self-defeating endeavor.

If prayer is a one-way street, then we do not know God. Claiming to know Christ by reading the Bible is like claiming to be a personal friend of Donald Trump because we read a newspaper. If what you say is true, then we are all truly lost souls on this wandering rock, made by a creator who refuses to talk to us. The meaning of life depends solely upon this one thing: that we should know and be loved by our God. I don't seek a word from God to know what to do, or to develop my doctrine, or to know what the future holds. I seek a relationship with him. That requires two ways of communication. A secondhand note written by a stranger to no one in particular does not constitute part of an active two-way relationship, and that's why I simply must have feedback of some kind from God when I pray.

Otherwise, prayer is not only futile, but pathetic, like a child crying out in the utter darkness and receiving no reply but the echo of his own voice.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Just lurking here, but it strikes me as exceedingly ironic that a statement like this would come from someone using a picture of John Calvin as his avatar.

Of course, it also strikes me as ironic that someone would claim to adhere strictly to the teachings of the Bible, to the complete exclusion of all special revelation, despite the fact that the primary theme of the Bible is that very same special revelation. Paul told us to pursue prophecy, but we reject prophecy on the grounds that we only accept the words of Paul (et al.). In so doing, we reject the words of Paul under the guise of accepting them. I can't imagine what you hope to accomplish by this self-defeating endeavor.

If prayer is a one-way street, then we do not know God. Claiming to know Christ by reading the Bible is like claiming to be a personal friend of Donald Trump because we read a newspaper. If what you say is true, then we are all truly lost souls on this wandering rock, made by a creator who refuses to talk to us. The meaning of life depends solely upon this one thing: that we should know and be loved by our God. I don't seek a word from God to know what to do, or to develop my doctrine, or to know what the future holds. I seek a relationship with him. That requires two ways of communication. A secondhand note written by a stranger to no one in particular does not constitute part of an active two-way relationship, and that's why I simply must have feedback of some kind from God when I pray.

Otherwise, prayer is not only futile, but pathetic, like a child crying out in the utter darkness and receiving no reply but the echo of his own voice.

Regarding China, and your snide Calvin comment, God's sovereignty does not negate man's responsibility.

Regarding your comparing God's Word with a newspaper, if God's Word were not living and active, you might have a point; however it is.

God does not refuse to talk, but many refuse to listen, preferring their own dreams, visions and imagination to His Word. "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in my name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’" (Jeremiah 23:25)

 

[swordsman1]

Just lurking here, but it strikes me as exceedingly ironic that a statement like this would come from someone using a picture of John Calvin as his avatar.

Of course, it also strikes me as ironic that someone would claim to adhere strictly to the teachings of the Bible, to the complete exclusion of all special revelation, despite the fact that the primary theme of the Bible is that very same special revelation. Paul told us to pursue prophecy, but we reject prophecy on the grounds that we only accept the words of Paul (et al.). In so doing, we reject the words of Paul under the guise of accepting them. I can't imagine what you hope to accomplish by this self-defeating endeavor.

If prayer is a one-way street, then we do not know God. Claiming to know Christ by reading the Bible is like claiming to be a personal friend of Donald Trump because we read a newspaper. If what you say is true, then we are all truly lost souls on this wandering rock, made by a creator who refuses to talk to us. The meaning of life depends solely upon this one thing: that we should know and be loved by our God. I don't seek a word from God to know what to do, or to develop my doctrine, or to know what the future holds. I seek a relationship with him. That requires two ways of communication. A secondhand note written by a stranger to no one in particular does not constitute part of an active two-way relationship, and that's why I simply must have feedback of some kind from God when I pray.

Otherwise, prayer is not only futile, but pathetic, like a child crying out in the utter darkness and receiving no reply but the echo of his own voice.

And not a word of scripture to back your assertions? Then again I am not surprised if you liken it to a newspaper and call it "a secondhand note written by a stranger".

 

[Arsenios]

And not a word of scripture to back your assertions? Then again I am not surprised if you liken it to a newspaper and call it "a secondhand note written by a stranger".

My Brother, this is a heartless response...

Do you believe the words of the Bible are living and moving too?

I KNOW, first hand, that God CAN move and live in me as I am reading them...

But to know that, you have to claim the very inner feelings and movements you disparage...

In yourself...

You simply CANNOT regard the Book as living and breathing...

It is not God, but was written by God's Holy Ones, and God CAN move WITHIN YOU through your reading and hearing its holy words... Some read it and are not moved as you are... I am glad you are...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God does not refuse to talk, but many refuse to listen,
preferring their own dreams, visions and imagination to His Word.
"I have heard what the prophets have said
who prophesy lies in my name,
saying,
‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’"
(Jeremiah 23:25)

Jeremiah is simply saying there is false prophesy, and God hears it...

Jeremiah is a Prophet...

That Bible quote affirms prophesy from God...

Which you seem to be denying these days...

Prophesy had BETTER not be imagination...

Nor fantasy of any kind...

Revelation alone is God's prophesy...

And there IS demonic prophesy as well...

Paul got sued over it.

 

[Arsenios]

Regarding your comparing God's Word with a newspaper,

Are you not comparing God's Word to a Book, and claiming they are one and the same?

Do you not call the Bible God's Word?

Is not Christ, and not a Book, God's Word?

Is not the Bible a Holy Book?

Is not God's Word the Son of God Himself?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Your rebuttals are often filled with venom, yet not often much scripture.

What more would you expect? I mean, awakening the snoozey is no small matter! and when it comes to thickened skulls, we are of one mind... But instead of venom, perhaps you might grant the benefit of the doubt and regard them as a soft and gentle nudging, rather that the smack on the cheek that I intend them as, or as the venom that you see them to be???

John using a term of endearment does not a doctrinal statement make. A mature mind would understand that, no?

Every word John speaks is a term of endearment... And his usage of the term techni is reflected in Christ's words to his hard-hearted disciples trying to prevent little children coming to Christ... Do I need to remind you that He said to them: "Suffer the little children to come unto Me..."?? And then do you remember what He said next? "For of such as these is the Kingdom of Heaven."

My Brother, we have to BECOME as little children before God -

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Cor. 13:11)

I know that you think this means that adults do not have visions, or something equally banal...

It means one must give up worldly reasonings in one's walk following Christ...

Arsenios

PS - The difference between John and the Synoptics is that John is written for those matured in the Faith of Christ, whereas the Synoptics are for those first learning of this Faith, so that the more mature are called "little children"... For they have great simplicity of mind and therein great purity of heart...

A.

 

[sunlover1]

Of course, it also strikes me as ironic that someone would claim to adhere strictly to the teachings of the Bible, to the complete exclusion of all special revelation, despite the fact that the primary theme of the Bible is that very same special revelation...

The kingdom of God is, in fact, built on the "rock" of revelation.
Although some believe it's built on Peter

 

[TillICollapse]

The kingdom of God is, in fact, built on the "rock" of revelation.
Although some believe it's built on Peter

Something to consider: if you're referring to the scripture of Peter receiving the revelation about identifying Jesus, that scripture refers to His church, it doesn't say the Kingdom.

 

[swordsman1]

My Brother, this is a heartless response...

Do you believe the words of the Bible are living and moving too?

I KNOW, first hand, that God CAN move and live in me as I am reading them...

But to know that, you have to claim the very inner feelings and movements you disparage...

In yourself...

You simply CANNOT regard the Book as living and breathing...

It is not God, but was written by God's Holy Ones, and God CAN move WITHIN YOU through your reading and hearing its holy words... Some read it and are not moved as you are... I am glad you are...

Arsenios

You attack me for defending the holy scriptures?
I take it you agree with him in calling the bible "a secondhand note written by a stranger" and likening it to a newspaper?

 

[swordsman1]

It means one must give up worldly reasonings in one's walk following Christ...

No it doesn't. Read the previous 2 verses to find out what the "ways of childhood" are.