.

[jimmyjimmy]

Are you not comparing God's Word to a Book, and claiming they are one and the same?

Do you not call the Bible God's Word?

Is not Christ, and not a Book, God's Word?

Is not the Bible a Holy Book?

Is not God's Word the Son of God Himself?

Arsenios

My entire point and every single post I've written in this thread demonstrate the antithesis of what you accuse me of. In fact, I just defended His Word from comparison to a newspaper! Either you are reading too quickly and misunderstanding me, or you are intentionally bearing false witness. I'll leave that for you to examine and decide; however, now that I have corrected your misunderstanding, if you say the same thing again, I will be certain of which it is.

Chist is the Word of God (John 1:1). He says of holy scripture that it is about Himself! It's all about Him, which is precisely why we know that at least some of what is described as God speaking to an individual is either made up or demonic, because the content is NOT Christ. This is why I have asked people to share the content of what the voice they heard told them, so that it could be examined by all.

As soon as someone says, "God told me" he must allow such examination. (1 John 4:1)

 

[Arsenios]

You attack me for defending the holy scriptures?

Because I said that this is a heartless response?

And not a word of scripture to back your assertions?
Then again I am not surprised if you liken it to a newspaper
and call it "a secondhand note written by a stranger".

It IS a heartless response... The love of God is not in it...
And besides, it contains NOT A WORD OF SCRIPTURE...
Jes' sayin'...

I take it you agree with him in calling the bible "a secondhand note written by a stranger" and likening it to a newspaper?

You need to show him doing that, and you have not done so -
You have merely made an angry accusation...

So you take it wrong as you are taking it...
And are doing the very deed you accuse him of doing...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What more would you expect? I mean, awakening the snoozey is no small matter!

I expect: Respect. I can deal with a couple of jabs and a bit of sarcasm. In fact, sarcasm is a good tool, but even a good tool used in the wrong way or at the wrong time will produce undesired results.

Please stick to discussing and debating the OP, and refrain from ad hominem attacks. I'm wide awake, thank you.

 

[sunlover1]

Something to consider: if you're referring to the scripture of Peter receiving the revelation about identifying Jesus, that scripture refers to His church, it doesn't say the Kingdom.

Thank you for that correction TIC.. i misspoke.
You're so right, Upon this rock i will build my CHURCH
and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!
(hope i did it right this time or I'm hanging up the keyboard )

 

[Arsenios]

My entire point and every single post I've written in this thread demonstrate the antithesis of what you accuse me of. In fact, I just defended His Word from comparison to a newspaper! Either you are reading too quickly and misunderstanding me, or you are intentionally bearing false witness. I'll leave that for you to examine and decide; however, now that I have corrected your misunderstanding, if you say the same thing again, I will be certain of which it is.

Then there is hope!
I sure thought you were saying that the Bible is God's Word.
My joy is to be corrected in this errancy of mine.

Christ is the Word of God (John 1:1).
He says of holy scripture that it is about Himself!
It's all about Him,

NOW you're talkin'!

SO... Holy men of God heard God's Voice and wrote down what they heard... So that the Bible is a Holy Book about God, and is NOT God's Word...

My angst is greatly eased - We are in full agreement so far!

which is preciously [precisely??] why we know that
at least some of what is described as God speaking to an individual
is either made up or demonic,
because the content is NOT Christ.

ALL here fully agree - The "Toronto Blessing" was a demonic smorgasboard, no question... And demons CAN erupt in all manner of "revelations", and many of them can be true! Like: "So and so just stole a pack of cigarettes." True or false, it is trouble either way, and demons are well known for finding lost things, and all manner of such 'helps'... For virtually every Christian Grace, there is a demonic counterpart... The only thing that demons don't do so good is humility... Their lambic baaaa's self-morph into wolfine hoooooowwwellls almost against their will...

This is why I have asked people to share the content of what the voice they heard told them, so that it could be examined by all.

So I shared with you of one small one, and got no examination whatsoever...
I don't think you missed it...
Did you miss it??

As soon as someone says,
"God told me" he must allow such examination.
(1 John 4:1)

Well, you seem more interested in demonic encounters, and to make them your default, and ignore the ones that are clearly given by God... You did post the demonic ones for us... And your argument seems to be:
"Because some spiritual encounters are demonic,
all of them are,
and I can prove it by Scripture."

Am I making any progress?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you for that correction TIC.. i misspoke.
You're so right, Upon this rock i will build my CHURCH
and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!
(hope i did it right this time or I'm hanging up the keyboard )

And that Rock is the Confession by Revelation, of Christ as the Son, of God.

It is the Revelation of God...
Telling us Who Christ IS...
And our CONFESSION of Christ...
That builds the Church...
And not the "Chair of Peter"...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

ALL here fully agree - The "Toronto Blessing" was a demonic smorgasboard, no question...

You must not visit some of the subforms I do because there are many who swear it's a God experience that people like myself just don't understand because of a closed mind. . .

So I shared with you of one small one, and got no examination whatsoever...
I don't think you missed it...
Did you miss it??

No, I didn't, but when I said that people claiming to hear from God should expect examination, I did not intend to mean that I am the examiner. I've urged people to spell out what the voice told them in order for CF to see, not just me.

Well, you seem more interested in demonic encounters, and to make them your default, and ignore the ones that are clearly given by God... You did post the demonic ones for us... And your argument seems to be:
"Because some spiritual encounters are demonic,
all of them are,
and I can prove it by Scripture."

I have no interest in demonic encounters other than to say that they exist. That they are a possible source of the voice some "hear".

I'm also not say that because there is a chance that spiritual encounters can be demonic, all of them are. I am saying that God has, in a very real way, stopped speaking directly to people as a means of providing new information (information not already written down for us). He has finally spoken to us in His Son "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." (Heb 1:2)

Any illumination by the Holy Spirit is on Christ. Any "hearing" from God is an opening of one's eyes and/or a lamp to see Christ more clearly, which is done by and through His Word. Even experience used by God is experience that opens/makes clear the word, which makes clear The Word.

That's my take on it.

 

[TillICollapse]

Thank you for that correction TIC.. i misspoke.
You're so right, Upon this rock i will build my CHURCH
and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!
(hope i did it right this time or I'm hanging up the keyboard )

^_~

 

[Arsenios]

You must not visit some of the sub-forums I do because there are many who swear it's a God experience that people like myself just don't understand because of a closed mind. . .

I probably should not tell you this, but what the hey! I walk in on such events and things get really quiet... I mean, Pentecostal types... They just do not do all that well around me... Their sources just seem to fizzle... What can I say?

No, I didn't, but when I said that people claiming to hear from God should expect examination, I did not intend to mean that I am the examiner. I've urged people to spell out what the voice told them in order for CF to see, not just me.

I have forgotten, but wasn't it you who accused folks of getting all vague when you asked them exactly what God SAID to them? I mean, that sounds like an "examination" to me... And in the face of that accusation, I offered a very specific verbal encounter with very specific words, and no reply... So my question then became, "Why ask for specific words and then ignore those given?" There had to be another agenda...

I have no interest in demonic encounters other than to say that they exist.
That they are a possible source of the voice some "hear".

The Church has been discipling the purification of the heart needed to "discern the spirits" for 2000 years now, and monastics enter into the arena of combat with them on a very regular basis... While the rest of us simply have occassional temptations... Converse with God takes many forms, my friend... Getting clear on the inner contours of spiritual discernment is not something to be done without direction... And then only after great repentance...

I'm also not saying that because there is a chance that spiritual encounters can be demonic, all of them are.

Does this mean that you are saying that SOME are NOT demonic?

You next sentence seems to imply this...

I am saying that God has, in a very real way,
stopped speaking directly to people as a means of providing new information
(information not already written down for us).
He has finally spoken to us in His Son
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
whom he appointed the heir of all things,
through whom also he created the world." (Heb 1:2)

So do you think Paul's words here have been nullified?

1Co 14:24-5
But if all prophesy,
and there comes in one that believeth not,
or one unlearned,
he is convinced of all,
he is judged of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest;
and so falling down on his face he will worship God,
and report that God is in you of a truth.

This is what Christian Prophesy is about - Penetrating the secrets of the heart, through revelation by God, unto the conversion or healing [and both, we should hope] of sinners... It is Prophetic Insight into the person, and as such, it cannot be anything other than NEW REVELATION...

Any illumination by the Holy Spirit is on Christ. Any "hearing" from God is an opening of one's eyes and/or a lamp to see Christ more clearly, which is done by and through His Word.

His Word is Christ Himself, and not divinely inspired human words written ABOUT Him, yes?

Even experience used by God is experience that opens/makes clear the word,
which makes clear The Word.

That's my take on it.

Thank-you...

I can only say, as a recovering atheist - In recovery for some 36 years now - that I had NO encounter with the Bible that introduced me to God, nor any person other than God... And the Person of God, the Word of God, is fully capable of making Himself VERY clear... In manifold ways... Indeed, it was He Who told me to read the Book of John in the Bible - For years He did so, and I took my time getting there... Another story!

So God Bless You, Brian - Please forgive me for being such a toad with you... We are approaching our Creator from opposite directions, that's all... I am more from Thomas' end... Attempts to invalidate other people's experience with God is such an important and personal matter that you will find a lot of uproar when you do so... We all know the Toronto "blessing" types are utterly demonic... Easy demonic pickings, actually... Because those who do such things are posers who fake it until they experience it, which normally pretty much guarantees a fake experience - eg a demonic event... Social pressure etc all contribute...

Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

I don't know if anyone has covered this from Ephesians 1:17

"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better."

Paul literally prays that God will give the Ephesians a spirit of wisdom and revelation. He does not limit this to the scriptures only, and in fact, does not mention scripture at all.

Here are the benefits of receiving this wisdom and revelation:
--you may know God better
--you may know the hope to which God has called you
--you may know God's incomparably great power

Revelation includes much more than just the illumination of scripture and the Son is still speaking today through the Holy Spirit.

The lack of experience by some, does not negate the experience of others. We should pray that God will continue to send our churches the spirit of wisdom and revelation.

 

[swordsman1]

It IS a heartless response... The love of God is not in it...

Criticizing an assault on the scriptures is heartless? Pointing out someone's error is not loving? Brother if you thought my post was heartless you ought to look back at some of your own.

You need to show him doing that, and you have not done so -

I did. I quoted his very words.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

His Word is Christ Himself, and not divinely inspired human words written ABOUT Him, yes?

Both.

So do you think Paul's words here have been nullified?

1Co 14:24-5
But if all prophesy,
and there comes in one that believeth not,
or one unlearned,
he is convinced of all,
he is judged of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest;
and so falling down on his face he will worship God,
and report that God is in you of a truth.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.​

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.​

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Paul literally prays that God will give the Ephesians a spirit of wisdom and revelation. He does not limit this to the scriptures only, and in fact, does not mention scripture at all.

You've added to Paul's words; therefore, God's Word.

Wisdom is having the truth and knowing what to do with it. It's applied truth. That truth is the Word of God.

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." (Col 2:8)​

Praying that those he shepherds will have wisdom and a depth of knowledge of Christ and His love for them is not praying that they will hear voices (which is what this thread is about, BTW). Revelation is to reveal. That means that it's already there.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, (2 Peter 1:3)​

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We should pray that God will continue to send our churches the spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Yes. We should.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I probably should not tell you this, but what the hey! I walk in on such events and things get really quiet... I mean, Pentecostal types... They just do not do all that well around me... Their sources just seem to fizzle... What can I say?



I have forgotten, but wasn't it you who accused folks of getting all vague when you asked them exactly what God SAID to them? I mean, that sounds like an "examination" to me... And in the face of that accusation, I offered a very specific verbal encounter with very specific words, and no reply... So my question then became, "Why ask for specific words and then ignore those given?" There had to be another agenda...



The Church has been discipling the purification of the heart needed to "discern the spirits" for 2000 years now, and monastics enter into the arena of combat with them on a very regular basis... While the rest of us simply have occassional temptations... Converse with God takes many forms, my friend... Getting clear on the inner contours of spiritual discernment is not something to be done without direction... And then only after great repentance...



Does this mean that you are saying that SOME are NOT demonic?

You next sentence seems to imply this...



So do you think Paul's words here have been nullified?

1Co 14:24-5
But if all prophesy,
and there comes in one that believeth not,
or one unlearned,
he is convinced of all,
he is judged of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest;
and so falling down on his face he will worship God,
and report that God is in you of a truth.

This is what Christian Prophesy is about - Penetrating the secrets of the heart, through revelation by God, unto the conversion or healing [and both, we should hope] of sinners... It is Prophetic Insight into the person, and as such, it cannot be anything other than NEW REVELATION...



His Word is Christ Himself, and not divinely inspired human words written ABOUT Him, yes?



Thank-you...

I can only say, as a recovering atheist - In recovery for some 36 years now - that I had NO encounter with the Bible that introduced me to God, nor any person other than God... And the Person of God, the Word of God, is fully capable of making Himself VERY clear... In manifold ways... Indeed, it was He Who told me to read the Book of John in the Bible - For years He did so, and I took my time getting there... Another story!

So God Bless You, Brian - Please forgive me for being such a toad with you... We are approaching our Creator from opposite directions, that's all... I am more from Thomas' end... Attempts to invalidate other people's experience with God is such an important and personal matter that you will find a lot of uproar when you do so... We all know the Toronto "blessing" types are utterly demonic... Easy demonic pickings, actually... Because those who do such things are posers who fake it until they experience it, which normally pretty much guarantees a fake experience - eg a demonic event... Social pressure etc all contribute...

Arsenios

Have these people heard the voice of God? They claim to have, so what do you say to them?

 

[Peter J Barban]

You've added to Paul's words; therefore, God's Word.

Wisdom is having the truth and knowing what to do with it. It's applied truth. That truth is the Word of God.

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." (Col 2:8)​

Praying that those he shepherds will have wisdom and a depth of knowledge of Christ and His love for them is not praying that they will hear voices (which is what this thread is about, BTW). Revelation is to reveal. That means that it's already there.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, (2 Peter 1:3)​

thatbrian, your accusation that I have added to Paul's words is completely wacko! I rebuke your error.

I set Paul's words off in a separate quote, and then gave commentary on that quote. No one honestly thinks that I am adding anything to what Paul wrote.

False attacks like that lead me to believe that you are unable to separate truth from fiction.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

thatbrian, your accusation that I have added to Paul's words is completely wacko! I rebuke your error.

I set Paul's words off in a separate quote, and then gave commentary on that quote. No one honestly thinks that I am adding anything to what Paul wrote.

False attacks like that lead me to believe that you are unable to separate truth from fiction.

Your interpretation goes beyond what is written, does it not? In your commentary, you attempt to sneak in what is clearly not there. That's what I meant.

It was not an attack. It was a correction. It was a rebuttal. Getting hysterical as you are is sometimes a tactic used to win an argument by ad hominem.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Your interpretation goes beyond what is written, does it not? In your commentary, you attempt to sneak in what is clearly not there. That's what I meant.

It was not an attack. It was a correction. It was a rebuttal. Getting hysterical as you are is sometimes a tactic used to win an argument by ad hominem.

thatbrian, your false attacks display an unwillingness to face uncomfortable facts. You distort the meaning of common phrases just because you have no reasonable rebuttal.

Unless you are willing to admit that you often add to the scriptures yourself, I suggest that you apologise for your false attack as well as your wacky definitions. .

 

[jimmyjimmy]

thatbrian, your false attacks display an unwillingness to face uncomfortable facts. You distort the meaning of common phrases just because you have no reasonable rebuttal.

Unless you are willing to admit that you often add to the scriptures yourself, I suggest that you apologise for your false attack as well as your wacky definitions. .

I know what you are doing. It won't work.

 

[Arsenios]

Have these people heard the voice of God? They claim to have, so what do you say to them?

!!!REPENT!!!

They are just clueless kids who do not know God and are therein deceived...
The iconoclast heresy went on for hundreds of years, resulting in many deaths via martyrdom... The Church is always under assault - As Revelation reveals, the Woman in these latter times is always being pursued by the Beast/Dragon...

A.