.

[swordsman1]

Followed by: Many are CALLED, FEW are chosen...

I am not one of the chosen...

Arsenios

Ah ok, so you believe there a few Apostles of Christ around today. I'll rephrase my question then.

Have they personally seen the risen Lord Jesus? Have they been commissioned personally by him? Do they have the marks of an apostle, performing signs, wonders, and miracles (2 Cor 12:12)?

 

[swordsman1]

When WE are IN Christ, and Christ is IN US,
it is Christ Who is the Doer of the works...

Which abilities does Christ not have???

"And greater works that these shall ye do..."

Christ's very words...

Arsenios

We can raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, etc, and greater things beside?

 

[sunlover1]

We can raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, etc, and greater things beside?

Well He said that we'd do greater things than He did.

 

[swordsman1]

Well He said that we'd do greater things than He did.

But clearly we don't raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, or anything like that. Let alone anything greater. So when he said "the works that I do, he will do also", he can't have been referring to his miraculous or divine abilities.

 

[Arsenios]

Thanks for explaining.
Now, would you please explain why you think that God spoke to you directly?

You want ME to explain GOD's reasons???

What a COUNTRY!!!

But not to leave you crumbless, I would offer that I was too thick-headed to get it any other way...

So you see, we DO have something in common with one another!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Ah ok, so you believe there a few Apostles of Christ around today.
I'll rephrase my question then.

Thank-you for cleaning your glasses!

Have they personally seen the risen Lord Jesus?

I didn't ask...

Have they been commissioned personally by him?

Nor did I ask that...

Do they have the marks of an apostle, performing signs, wonders, and miracles (2 Cor 12:12)?

Oh yes...

They are a permanent feature of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that is the Body of Christ our God... There are always a few, and they don't give interviews for idle curiosity about their latest wonder-workings... They do write books, but that takes the effort to read them, and idle curiosity normally has other agenda items... But if you ask, I can give you a title or two...

Or you can click this:

It is a 60 Minutes two part article on a place where the highest concentration of such folks can be found...

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

But clearly we don't raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, or anything like that. Let alone anything greater. So when he said "the works that I do, he will do also", he can't have been referring to his miraculous or divine abilities.

What was He referring to?
Here, maybe context can help:

11...Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me;
otherwise believe because of the works themselves.​

This leads into the 'and greater works' verse (v 12).
Whichever works He is speaking of here will tell the tale.
Any idea what those are?

 

[Arsenios]

We can raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, etc, and greater things beside?

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that is believing unto me,
the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.

I could send you to a movie on Netflix that dramatizes this Church's Gifts...

Most of the folks I send to it don't get it...

One friend of mine did, but he is not a Christian...

He got it right away...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But clearly we don't raise the dead, calm storms, walk on water, feed 5000, turn water into wine, or anything like that. Let alone anything greater. So when he said "the works that I do, he will do also", he can't have been referring to his miraculous or divine abilities.

You speak for your own faith, and not for the Faith of Christ which He gave to His Apostles to disciple unto the Nations... Healing of diseases, giving sight to the blind, water out of rock, whatever is needed and sought... Nothing for idle curiosity... Everything for profound need...

We are just talking here...

Idly...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that is believing unto me,
the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.


One friend of mine did, but he is not a Christian...

He got it right away...


Arsenios

That makes complete sense.

 

[Peter J Barban]

It is true that the Bible does not clearly say that God's people will hear the voice of God in their heads or get impressions, etc. Nor does it say that they won't.

Nevertheless, if I were persuaded that God does not speak outside of scripture, I would have to conclude that those who claim such experiences were either liars or fools. I would not expect such people to be mature Christians filled with the fruit of the Spirit. Furthermore, I would expect their ministries to produce more liars and fools.

Indeed, Jesus said that we should judge a tree by its fruit. It is true that those who are in error about hearing from God will produce bad fruit, while those who are correct will product good fruit.

So, what is the testimony of history? Are there godly people of the past who claimed to hear from God in extraordinary ways?

Yes, there are a multitude, including Presbyterians such as George Wishart (1513-1546) “Wishart was not only singularly learned as well in godly knowledge as in all honest humane science, but also he was so clearly illuminated with the spirit of prophecy, that he saw not only things pertaining to himself, but also such things as some towns, and the whole realm afterward felt, which he forespake, not in secret, but in the audience of many…” [John Knox, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, ed. William Croft Dickinson (New York: Philosophical Library, 1950), 60.]

There are many more testimonies. Would anyone deny the godly fruit of such a martyr or claim that men such as John Knox and George Wishart were fools or liars.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Nevertheless, if I were persuaded that God does not speak outside of scripture, I would have to conclude that those who claim such experiences were either liars or fools.

There are other explanations than that they are fools or liars. Undoubtedly, some are fools, and some are liars, but many are ignorant. They simply lack understanding. They are other possibilities, as I've listed in earlier posts, as well.

Some people are very impressionable. They will believe whatever is expected of them to believe.

Back to teachers. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells that the scripture is sufficient to equip.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

 

[Peter J Barban]

But what of the fruit? That is the real test. If all such people are at best impressionable and misinformed, then how can they and their ministries produce good spiritual fruit.

Granted that you really can't judge the fruit of someone through the internet. Yet, as I have shown, powerful saints in history have claimed that they heard the voice of God.

Will you deny their testimony to fit your doctrine?

 

[sunlover1]

But what of the fruit? That is the real test. If all such people are at best impressionable and misinformed, then how can they and their ministries produce good spiritual fruit.

Granted that you really can't judge the fruit of someone through the internet. Yet, as I have shown, powerful saints in history have claimed that they heard the voice of God.

Will you deny their testimony to fit your doctrine?

I begin by agreeing about fruit, but then i remember the donkey
and also the devil can hear God.
So ... *shrug

 

[Extraneous]

I will respect the wishes of the OP, and stay out of this conversation, but if you will allow me a little grace, i just want to share this scripture. Its my belief that the miracles that Christ did were but mere shadows, that spoke of spiritual things that we will do. I believe it may refer to hearing, through the spirit, and remember, we are dead and raised with Christ, in heaven. (colossians 3) Thank you.

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Mathew 16:8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[c] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Here is the account of a Presbyterian missionary to Taiwan, who established Christianity on the northern half of the island over a hundred years ago.

He had planned to serve in China but when he got there, he didn't have peace, so he got on a ship and headed to Taiwan.

"It all began on March 9th, 1872, when Mackay arrived at Tamsui River on the Sea Dragon. Arriving in Huwei (today, Tamsui) for the first time, he described his state of mind at the time: “I look from north to south, and then towards the inland and the deep green mountains far away. My soul is very content, my mind calm and at rest. I know that this is where I belong. A calm and clear voice said to me: ‘This the land.’” Just as God decreed, Mackay decided to stay in Huwei to spread the Gospel."

I live in Tamshui and have visited the churches, schools and hospitals that he started. He heard the voice of God and had great fruit.

Is it so surprising that God still directs his people extra biblically, just as he did in the Bible?

 

[swordsman1]

But what of the fruit? That is the real test. If all such people are at best impressionable and misinformed, then how can they and their ministries produce good spiritual fruit.

Granted that you really can't judge the fruit of someone through the internet. Yet, as I have shown, powerful saints in history have claimed that they heard the voice of God.

Will you deny their testimony to fit your doctrine?

Fruit of the spirit is the mark of a true believer. I am not doubting the people you refer to are true believers. But sadly even true believers can be deluded into thinking that the feelings and impressions they experience is God speaking to them. People have strong feelings and emotions all the time and to say there is a "God told me" in each of them is naive and dangerous. The "God told me" mysticism of today causes no end of problems. Some Christians bounce from pillar to post from one "God told me" to the next. Satan is never happier when the God's children are no longer relying on the scriptures to guide them, but led into error and confusion by following their own feelings and emotions.

For the everyday decisions of life where scripture doesn't provide an answer God has given us a capacity for logic, decision-making, assessment, and intelligence and no doubt he wants us to use them. If we are undecided God tells us to pray for wisdom, and we can then use sanctified common sense knowing that "All things work together for good".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But what of the fruit? That is the real test. If all such people are at best impressionable and misinformed, then how can they and their ministries produce good spiritual fruit.

Granted that you really can't judge the fruit of someone through the internet. Yet, as I have shown, powerful saints in history have claimed that they heard the voice of God.

Will you deny their testimony to fit your doctrine?

I will deny anyone's testimony which does not align with scripture.

He had planned to serve in China but when he got there, he didn't have peace, so he got on a ship and headed to Taiwan.

This is another misguided notion. I've heard it for years, "I didn't have peace about . . ."

There are many things that are done for the sake of the gospel and the good of the church which don't bring peace. They should be done anyway. Lets just look at your example. He didn't like China so he went to Taiwan. You look at the result of his work in Taiwan, but you don't consider the people of China. Could they not have used a missionary with some guts in 1872? What the fruit of that would have been, we will never know. . .

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For the everyday decisions of life where scripture doesn't provide an answer God has given us a capacity for logic, decision-making, assessment, and intelligence and no doubt he wants us to use them.

This is so overlooked. It's called m a t u r i t y.

My former pastor (Tim Keller NYC) had this to say about decision making (this is my recollection of what he said, not a direct quote). I think that this drives the point home very well.

But what happens is that as time goes and you commit yourself to the Lord your plans become better and better, wiser and wiser.

In sum, commit your life completely to the Lord and start making decisions.

But what if I do not have peace about it. I need to know God’s will! Which one do I choose? Why doesn’t God just tell us what to do?

Because God wants you to become wise. It does not take any wisdom if you are told to do everything.

Imagine you are 4 years old and you ask your dad to go out and play and he says okay, but only over here and not for too long because we are going to have dinner soon.​

Now fast forward the clock and imagine you’re here at GW in college. You call your dad and ask him, “Dad, there are some guys out in U Yard playing frisbee. I was just wondering if I could go out and play.”

And he would say, “What is wrong with you? You know how much work you have. I do not know.”

“But Dad I just want you to make the decision for me.”

Now there are parents out there who want their children to be that dependent on them, but God is not one of them. He wants you to be like him. Make a decision!​

​

 

[Peter J Barban]

thatbrian, I think that you are overestimating your illumination of scripture and elevating yourself above the vast cloud of witnesses who have claimed to hear the voice of God while serving him in faithfulness, maturity, and power.

While they have done great deeds for Christ, all you have is your opinion.