.

[jimmyjimmy]

Hmmmm ..... what stood out to me, out of all of that, was this:

"but that man should play the tyrant over God and find Him a better Man that himself is an astonishing drama indeed."

That, is beautiful It concisely points out a beautiful aspect to the nature of existence itself. Thank you for that

I should have given more of a clue, but the point I wanted to make with the Dorothy Sayers piece was that the, Dogma is the Drama.

You said that you are seeking God by seeking experience, and the reason I replying with that piece was because the drama can be found in the dogma, not down a rabbit hole.

We are constantly assured that the churches are empty because preachers insist too much upon doctrine—dull dogma as people call it. The fact is the precise opposite. It is the neglect of dogma that makes for dullness. The Christian faith is the most exciting drama that ever staggered the imagination of man—and the dogma is the drama.
​

and this:

. . . . for the cry today is: “Away with the tedious complexities of dogma—let us have the simple spirit of worship; just worship, no matter of what!” The only drawback to this demand for a generalized and undirected worship is the practical difficulty of arousing any sort of enthusiasm for the worship of nothing in particular.​

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Not to sound picky, but to me, it is often more important that I see someone demonstrate their faith, rather than merely give words.

The gospel is at the heart of Christianity, and we are joined to Christ by belief in it - in His work on our behalf. "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

probably in a post you didn't respond too, so you may not know what I'm referencing

I don't recall it.

how do we make a positive ID of "God" ?

All of God that we have or ever will is found in Jesus. What to see God, see the Christ. What to know exactly what God is like, look at Him.

Or the converse ... how do you know God didn't speak to someone and doesn't ?

My starting point is that God has spoken through some men in the past and those words are recored for all. Using both the history contained in the texts and the missing instruction to expect such things, I draw my conclusion. There is one other thing, as well that I'll tell you later.

I've had enough experiences, that I do believe in Christ, the person of Christ, and that Jesus is Lord and the Savior.

Faith comes by hearing, and hear by the word of God. . . Christ is seated at the right hand of God and He has said that He must go to prepare a place for us. This is why we have Him through faith.

To me, it's not an academic endeavor. I like evidence.

Knowing God is partly an academic endeavor, and His word certainly is evidence, as well. It's self-authenticating, as only God's word could be.

 

[swordsman1]

The only good argument you have is that the Bible does not say we should hear the voice of God in our heads. On the other hand, the Bible does not say the opposite either. It never says that we should not hear from God this way. So, biblically, both are weak arguments based on the silence of the Bible.

Nor does the bible say we shouldn't stand on one leg and pour a bowl of custard over our heads. Does that mean we should do it? After all, to argue against it is an argument from silence.

Seriously though, should we engage in dubious spiritual practices which are not taught in scripture, like assuming God gives you personal revelations via your feelings? Perhaps the answer lies here:

1 Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”​

 

[swordsman1]

Since prophecy requires hearing from God, it is no derailment of the topic about how people hear the voice of God.

Prophecy is hearing the very words of God (audibly in a dream or vision - Num 12:6), and accurately passing on those words verbatim to others in the form "Thus says the Lord: "<exact words here>". Prophets are the mouthpiece of God. The revelation is authoritative and infallible. Anything else is a false prophecy. Prophecy never comes through a thought, feeling or impression in your mind (Jer 23:16). It is a message for others, not yourself (1 Cor 14:3).

So it seems to have little relevance to this discussion which is about people claiming that God gives them personal revelations via a thought, feeling, or a non-audible inner "voice".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Prophecy is hearing the very words of God (audibly in a dream or vision - Num 12:8), and accurately passing on those words verbatim to others in the form

Precisely.

it seems to have little relevance to this discussion which is about people claiming that God gives them personal revelations via a thought, feeling, or a non-audible inner "voice".

It doesn't. It's a completely different matter, but it keeps being presented as evidence of personal revelation.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Swordsman1, you have created a false precision in your definition of prophecy. The Bible does not state things so precisely. You should not falsely declare that God only speaks to prophets in certain ways and the prophets must then speak in certain specific ways. We certainly do not know how every prophetic message in the Bible was given or spread. You are claiming certainty over knowledge that the Bible does not give.

Besides, one experiences a dream entirely within one's mind. If I hear the voice of God in a dream, that is little different than hearing God when I am awake.

The truth is that there is no formula for hearing the voice of God in dreams or prophecy, or prayer. Nor is there some arbitrary standard that God only speaks to important people in important times. Finally, we know for a fact that not everything God says gets placed into scripture.

So, stop telling us that God will not speak to our minds, when you honestly don't know the limits of what God will and will not do.

 

[swordsman1]

Swordsman1, you have created a false precision in your definition of prophecy. The Bible does not state things so precisely. You should not falsely declare that God only speaks to prophets in certain ways and the prophets must then speak in certain specific ways. We certainly do not know how every prophetic message in the Bible was given or spread. You are claiming certainty over knowledge that the Bible does not give.

Besides, one experiences a dream entirely within one's mind. If I hear the voice of God in a dream, that is little different than hearing God when I am awake.

The truth is that there is no formula for hearing the voice of God in dreams or prophecy, or prayer. Nor is there some arbitrary standard that God only speaks to important people in important times. Finally, we know for a fact that not everything God says gets placed into scripture.

So, stop telling us that God will not speak to our minds, when you honestly don't know the limits of what God will and will not do.

It is not my definition, it is what the bible says. I quoted the passages to back it up.

 

[Kersh]

It is not my definition, it is what the bible says. I quoted the passages to back it up.

Frankly, I don't see either passages saying what you suggest they do. The passage in Jeremiah states that certain prophets were just making things up, not truly speaking a work from God. How does this imply that God NEVER speaks directly to our mind or spirit? The 1 Corinthians passage states that the main purpose of prophesy is to speak encouragement to others and does not even imply that God never speaks to individuals for any other purpose.

 

[swordsman1]

The passage in Jeremiah states that certain prophets were just making things up, not truly speaking a work from God. How does this imply that God NEVER speaks directly to our mind or spirit?

Can you quote any instances of a prophet receiving a revelation via a thought or a feeling which he then verbalizes using his own words?

The 1 Corinthians passage states that the main purpose of prophesy is to speak encouragement to others and does not even imply that God never speaks to individuals for any other purpose.

Can you quote any instances of a prophet prophesying to himself?

 

[Kersh]

Can you quote any instances of a prophet receiving a revelation via a thought or a feeling which he then verbalizes using his own words?



Can you quote any instances of a prophet prophesying to himself?

I don't know of many passages that describe the exact mechanism of God's speaking. But, we are told that Elijah experienced it on at least one occassion as a "still small voice" and Jesus said that we would know his voice. Many believers, myself included, claim to have heard the voice of God speak to us in various ways. I think we need to look at the fruit and compare what they've heard God say with Scripture, rather than questioning the means that God used.

As far as a "prophet prophesying to himself", I feel like you're playing semantics games. But, in terms of God speaking directly to a person for that person's own benefit, Job, Elijah, and Jonah all immediately come to mind.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't know of many passages that describe the exact mechanism of God's speaking.

If you are talking about the mechanism of prophecy, I only know of one:

Num 12:6 "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream."​

But, we are told that Elijah experienced it on at least one occassion as a "still small voice" and Jesus said that we would know his voice.

We have discussed both those verses earlier in this topic. I don't want to repeat myself, so you might want to look back and comment if you wish.

Many believers, myself included, claim to have heard the voice of God speak to us in various ways. I think we need to look at the fruit and compare what they've heard God say with Scripture, rather than questioning the means that God used.

But the practice of receiving personal revelations through your thoughts,feelings,etc is not taught in scripture.

As far as a "prophet prophesying to himself", I feel like you're playing semantics games. But, in terms of God speaking directly to a person for that person's own benefit, Job, Elijah, and Jonah all immediately come to mind.

You were querying whether 1 Cor 14:3, which says "the one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation", is exclusively for others. If prophetic messages are not just for others, but also for yourself, where in scripture is this taught?

 

[TillICollapse]

I should have given more of a clue, but the point I wanted to make with the Dorothy Sayers piece was that the, Dogma is the Drama.

You said that you are seeking God by seeking experience, and the reason I replying with that piece was because the drama can be found in the dogma, not down a rabbit hole.

We are constantly assured that the churches are empty because preachers insist too much upon doctrine—dull dogma as people call it. The fact is the precise opposite. It is the neglect of dogma that makes for dullness. The Christian faith is the most exciting drama that ever staggered the imagination of man—and the dogma is the drama.
​

and this:

. . . . for the cry today is: “Away with the tedious complexities of dogma—let us have the simple spirit of worship; just worship, no matter of what!” The only drawback to this demand for a generalized and undirected worship is the practical difficulty of arousing any sort of enthusiasm for the worship of nothing in particular.​

I assumed that the point you were trying to highlight, was the dogma is the drama angle. But to me, it rarely is. At least, probably not in the manner in which is being suggested. So I found something else of value in her commentary.

 

[TillICollapse]

The gospel is at the heart of Christianity, and we are joined to Christ by belief in it - in His work on our behalf. "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That passage refers to more than just words, however: the heart.

If I'm starving (literally), and you are standing in front of me with a sandwich, eating it, telling me how much you believe in your heart that you want to help feed me, but you *don't* ... you are not demonstrating, from my point of view, your claims about your own heart. You can say it all you want, but I see no evidence of it. Similarly, if you claim to be able to fly, but never demonstrate it ... you may in fact, be able to fly (not likely, of course), but it's mostly irrelevant, because you never did.

In my opinion, what a person holds in their heart concerning God, Christ, reality, however you want to put it together ... is demonstrated by their life.

All of God that we have or ever will is found in Jesus. What to see God, see the Christ. What to know exactly what God is like, look at Him.

Which is why reading about Jesus was not good enough for me. Nor were feelings and mental gymnastics, nor hearing about Him only.

My starting point is that God has spoken through some men in the past and those words are recored for all. Using both the history contained in the texts and the missing instruction to expect such things, I draw my conclusion. There is one other thing, as well that I'll tell you later.

I would probably just quote what I just said: this is not good enough for me, typically.

Faith comes by hearing, and hear by the word of God. . . Christ is seated at the right hand of God and He has said that He must go to prepare a place for us. This is why we have Him through faith.

This comment here is on topic ... but I would not take from it (faith comes by hearing, etc) what you are probably taking from it. I view it in a different light.

 

[Peter J Barban]

If you are talking about the mechanism of prophecy, I only know of one:
Num 12:6 "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream."

This is the main problem. You only know one way, therefore, you assume that you know all ways.

I don't mind that you are skeptical of people hearing voices in their head. I'm skeptical when others say this as well. However, I get very upset when you and thatbrian claim full knowledge of the ways of God. In your absolute declarations of what God does, you go beyond the scriptures and exalt yourself above the scriptures.

More directly, since the Bible does not say that prophets must hear from God in one specific way and the Bible does not say that God will not speak in the minds of people, you are claiming direct knowledge of God outside of scripture and experience. Thus endorsing a false doctrine. Ironically, that is the very thing that you fear others are doing.

This confirms my observation that most people create their own failures.

 

[Arsenios]

You should have included the entire thought
rather than just the portion that you did.

Here it is - Please keep it in mind:

I asked you *what* (which is a content question) God said to you,

and
you give me an evasive reply.

That is the rest of the thought...

As for the rest of your story,

I am not clear as to what you said
or are asking me.

You may recall that you were lamenting that when asked (specifically) what God said to them (in words) that everyone became vague and gave evasive replies, as you lamented in purple above... And you thereby dismissed their witness...

THEREFORE:

I gave you a very specific account of the very specific words which God very specifically said to me, in a conversation I had with Him that initially brought me to the Faith of Christ... So having given you this, you may lay aside your dismissal and respond, as you had previously declined to do because of the vagueness of the witness, to one small witnessing of a conversation with God...

Arsenios

 

[swordsman1]

However, I get very upset when you and thatbrian claim full knowledge of the ways of God. In your absolute declarations of what God does, you go beyond the scriptures and exalt yourself above the scriptures.

Where did I claim "full knowledge of the ways of God"? I am only quoting what scripture says. If you think I have misquoted or misinterpreted scripture, or you have alternative verses that say otherwise, I am all ears.

More directly, since the Bible does not say that prophets must hear from God in one specific way and the Bible does not say that God will not speak in the minds of people, you are claiming direct knowledge of God outside of scripture and experience. Thus endorsing a false doctrine. Ironically, that is the very thing that you fear others are doing.

There is only one mechanism of receiving prophecies I know of (Num 12:6). If you have verses demonstrating other ways, please let us know. Claiming there are other mechanisms without biblical endorsement is to make an unwarranted and dangerous assumption.

 

[Arsenios]

This is the main problem. You only know one way, therefore, you assume that you know all ways.

I don't mind that you are skeptical of people hearing voices in their head. I'm skeptical when others say this as well. However, I get very upset when you and thatbrian claim full knowledge of the ways of God. In your absolute declarations of what God does, you go beyond the scriptures and exalt yourself above the scriptures.

More directly, since the Bible does not say that prophets must hear from God in one specific way and the Bible does not say that God will not speak in the minds of people, you are claiming direct knowledge of God outside of scripture and experience. Thus endorsing a false doctrine. Ironically, that is the very thing that you fear others are doing.

This confirms my observation that most people create their own failures.

What a great rebuttal! I am in your debt, thank-you!

Forming one's own opinions,
even based on Scriptural evidence,
is still the formation of one's own opinions...

Scripture does not exhaust God's movement in the souls of Prophets...

The Scripture I love is the one by Paul, I think, where it states that Prophets are subject to Prophets...

I conclude from it that IF one is not a Prophet, one's opinions on prophesy, and its inner workings in the minds of actual Prophets, are to be discarded and ignored... IF you have not had conversations with God, you may question a reported conversation with Him by someone else, and in the case of the Charismatics there was most assuredly a demonic outbreak, but you simply cannot infer that because of the presence of such evils, that God does not speak to man in this age...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is only one mechanism of receiving prophecies I know of (Num 12:6). If you have verses demonstrating other ways, please let us know. Claiming there are other mechanisms without biblical endorsement is to make an unwarranted and dangerous assumption.

1Cor 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets
are subject to the prophets.

Mechanistic exegesis is un-Biblical...
Dreams, for instance, are not mechanisms...

Unless you ARE a Prophet,
you have NO IDEA
of HOW Prophets
receive prophesy...

So ARE you a Prophet, Swordsman??

Arsenios

 

[swordsman1]

Mechanistic exegesis is un-Biblical...
Dreams, for instance, are not mechanisms...

According to Num 12:6, dreams and visions are the mechanism by which prophecies are received.

Unless you ARE a Prophet,
you have NO IDEA
of HOW Prophets
receive prophesy...

I do have an idea - from scripture.

So ARE you a Prophet, Swordsman??

No, I am not a prophet. Nor do I believe anyone alive today is a prophet, from what scripture says.

 

[Arsenios]

According to Num 12:6, dreams and visions are the mechanism by which prophecies are received.

Do you not know the difference between a means and a mechanism?

I do have an idea - from scripture.

Scripture states a "dream"... So you think you have an idea...

Have you had a prophetic dream??

If not, you then have no idea...

Prophets are subject to Prophets...

No, I am not a prophet.

Then you have no say over Prophets...

Nor do I believe anyone alive today is a prophet,
from what scripture says.

Scripture tells us that in Christ's Holy Body, some are appointed to be Prophets...

And that Prophets are subject to Prophets...

And YOU are NOT a Prophet...

And YOU are telling Prophets that THEY are not Prophets...

You are speaking of things beyond your knowledge, my Brother...

Arsenios