.

[Llewelyn]

Why wouldn't a Christian what to be a member of a church?!

Indeed. By Scriptural fact you cannot be anything but a member because the church is the body of Christ. Can The foot say it is not part of the body?

Now the local church is the best expression of the body of Christ since the members are joined together in their attendance. However a member of a body does not require a certificate of acceptance, though we have practised these things for many years.

Again why do you not want to be recognised as a part of the tree you are grafted into? A church cannot say we don't have members because it is an expression of the body of Christ. Today in some churches the attender is allowed to make the decision whether they belong or not. Their decision is recognised by regular attendance and or participation in the church activities. Others maintain rituals and acceptance by handshake or certification.

Truthfully we are all members of the Church if we have followed Christ through repentance/faith, water baptism, and continuing to walk in obedience to the Scriptures. Whether you attend or stay away makes little difference to your status if you are truly Christ's.

However if the hand disliked the foot so much that it cut itself off of the body it would die as it cannot receive the life giving sustenance the mouth provides. Don't die as a loner, get connected with the other parts.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Um, He didnt say that.

He said [let me paraphrase in todays language] to the Pharisees.
What's up with how you are so strict in keeping your hands washed that you are not mindful of your parents?
You put them off like a burden and do the least possible, but you worry about the little things that are not about loving...
and honoring.

AND yes, He did say 'OBEY those who sit on the chair of Moses.'

I didnt see a retraction of that...[until He chose Simon to be rock]
Which in and of itself means you have to understand the part of the keys stemming from Isaiah... 22.
The Steward holds the keys of the King and rules it in the place of the King in His absence.
Ya see, Isaiah also said - BORN unto us is a Son....who shall have the government on his shoulder. Meaning: He will be King and have the keys to choose a Steward.
Because - back in the time of Isaiah - the King wore a robe and a tie around his waist to fling the keys over his shoulder so he had them at all times.
In His absence it was given to the steward.
Another reference to 'authority' BTW.

A chair is a reference to - a seat of authority.

Even as a Protestant, I can agree that we understand little of Christianity because we understand little of the first 2/3 of the Bible, and of kings and kingdoms. It's difficult to understand 1/2 of what Jesus said unless you understand how kings and kingdoms operate (a subject which I still am in need of much more understanding myself).

 

[Extraneous]

Um, He didnt say that.

He said [let me paraphrase in todays language] to the Pharisees.
What's up with how you are so strict in keeping your hands washed that you are not mindful of your parents?
You put them off like a burden and do the least possible, but you worry about the little things that are not about loving...
and honoring.

AND yes, He did say 'OBEY those who sit on the chair of Moses.'

I didnt see a retraction of that...[until He chose Simon to be rock]
Which in and of itself means you have to understand the part of the keys stemming from Isaiah... 22.
The Steward holds the keys of the King and rules it in the place of the King in His absence.
Ya see, Isaiah also said - BORN unto us is a Son....who shall have the government on his shoulder. Meaning: He will be King and have the keys to choose a Steward.
Because - back in the time of Isaiah - the King wore a robe and a tie around his waist to fling the keys over his shoulder so he had them at all times.
In His absence it was given to the steward.
Another reference to 'authority' BTW.

A chair is a reference to - a seat of authority.

I see Authority in scripture. I follow that.

 

[Extraneous]

Revelation 19:16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't know why anyone would throw tomatoes at you for that lol...

I actually don't agree with church membership. I don't think it's right. Now my church does allow communion to anyone who wants to take it...kids included...otherwise I would be pretty upset.

I grew up in what was called the Plymouth Brethren or Exclusive/Closed brethren. We had no pastors, no music, and things were done in kind of a strange way. We would have singing, but the songs could only have specific words, there were prayers, and there were Bible readings with short words on what the brother thought about them. Only men could speak, of course. In between each of these things, there was complete silence. It was meant to help you reflect on Christ. In some ways, I miss the silence, I'll be honest. In other ways, I don't see where there was that silence in Scripture, at least not when it came to a public group. Then after a while, a brother (but it had to be an approved one) would get up and say a scripture about the bread, pray, and then the bread got passed around, only to those who were deemed good enough by the elders to participate. On many occasions, I got thrown "out of fellowship" as a teenager because of my "rebellion" against my family. Which is a story for another day lol but I wasn't doing anything that was "bad enough", to say the least. Then the same routine would be followed for the cup. Everyone would partake. Then it would finish out with another hymn, another Scripture, and a prayer. None of it was preconceived, so in one way, it was completely Holy Spirit led. In another way, it was so so so legalistic, that my family was about the only people there and I didn't have any friends and wasn't allowed to have friends "from the world" or even from other churches.

Yeah. Now I'm in a Foursquare church and I love it. There are still some things that aren't right, but I can overlook those. They're not life or death. They preach the gospel. They go into all the world. They go into the community. There are so many opportunities for people to serve...and many more opportunities to be healed and helped in any area of life. All people, children included, are encouraged to participate in everything. The children even get opportunities to be part of the worship team, the plays that are put on (for the community in community events as well as in church for Christmas/Easter), and other ministries. There are so many good aspects to my church and I know that I am very very blessed to have found it.

I have been severely hurt by a certain denomination as well as by the Plymouth brethren movement. But that doesn't stop me. I know it was PEOPLE, who are fallible, who hurt me, and not God. I just had to keep searching. I don't believe that this church is my home forever, or that this state for that matter is my home forever. But while I'm here, I will enjoy it and encourage others to attend. And when God calls me to move, I know that I will be looking for another good church just like this. Far be it from me to ask people to attend a church that is either untruthful, legalistic, or isn't led by God.

Healthy attitue. You got what you need without needing to pressure anyone to conform.
That is itself an invitation to fellowship.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I see Authority in scripture. I follow that.

Scriptures - aka the NT - never states itself as an authority, however; it shows us we cannot be an authority.
Mind blowing if you ever read it.

Peter says those who wrest them for themselves do so in error and damn themselves.
Phillip was taken to a Eunich to teach him how to understand them.
MIND you this - each and every time 'scriptures' are mentioned in the NT - it is fully in reference to the OT.
Because the Apostles didnt state their own writings were scriptures. No, they did not.
So when they say - the scriptures are good for reproof et al... they are speaking of the prophecies in the OT and how God was 'going to' set up His Church upon His fulfillment.

Now if you cannot comprehend the OT and it's prophecy to the Church's established authority - then I might want to deem, you must consider yourself an authority.
In that case, you are much older than most of us.

And here is the thing - the Apostles BECAME scriptures at the decision of the Pope in the last 300's - putting them into the canon of the Church. To be used as part of the readings and teachings. WHICH ----- if you know anything about Judaism is a typical way of doing things.
In the synagogues, they read out loud the scrolls and the priest would explain to them what it meant.
[However; they didnt understand the future only the past, and how they missed their Messiah hence He was crucified]

Nevertheless; the NT never ever refers to their own writings as scriptures. The "Prophets" never do. When Isaiah was written - it was some 200 years later it was put into canon of the Jews. And then the second half of Isaiah was added another 200 years later.

In order to truly understand how it works, you need an authority to teach you. You cannot do it alone, or Phillip wouldnt have been called out to Baptize and preach to the man. Who admitted to Phillip - how can i know, without anyone teaching me?
That's thye thing right there... how can anyone know without a teacher?

Each person who left the Catholic Church left to a 'teacher' telling them how to believe.

Anyway - one more historical fact... there are writings NOT included in the canon - because the Pope didnt want them added, tho many discussions and deliberation were in place.
Had it been decided to include Clement l into the canon, you would have read the 1st letter of the Pope who was 4th in line from Peter.
The 1st Church knew an authority was necessary.

Now - how do we know an authority was necessary?
1st of all - NONE of Paul's writings would exist - or the Apostles if no one was asking from the Churches for help ...
We would have nothing in writing if not for the need for an authority to help with questions.
The letters from them, were sent to their Bishops in place.

Consider the writings of St Ignatius as he was being led to Rome from Antioch to be fed to lions.
he was the Bishop of that Church.

I mean, the truth is right there - if you care to see it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We would have nothing in writing if not for the need for an authority to help with questions.

Good point.

 

[sunlover1]

Scriptures - aka the NT - never states itself as an authority, however; it shows us we cannot be an authority.
Mind blowing if you ever read it.

Which passage are you referring to, just curious

Peter says those who wrest them for themselves do so in error and damn themselves.

ahh, no he doesn't.
He says that foolish and ignorant people TWIST Scriptures
"Some of his comments are hard to understand,
and those who are ignorant and unstable have
twisted his letters to mean something quite different,
just as they do with other parts of Scripture.
And this will result in their destruction."

Phillip was taken to a Eunich to teach him how to understand them.
MIND you this - each and every time 'scriptures' are mentioned in the NT - it is fully in reference to the OT.

Uhh, no it's not
In fact, in that very passage you used above, Peter refers to Pauls writings as
γραφὰς, the same word always used for OT Scriptures.

Because the Apostles didnt state their own writings were scriptures. No, they did not.

Yes they did too

So when they say - the scriptures are good for reproof et al... they are speaking of the prophecies in the OT and how God was 'going to' set up His Church upon His fulfillment.

No they're speaking of ALL Scripture,, kind of like it says in
the very passage you're using to say it's not. yikes.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I mean, the truth is right there - if you care to see it.

Now this i can amen.

 

[sunlover1]

Why wouldn't a Christian what to be a member of a church?!

Indeed. By Scriptural fact you cannot be anything but a member because the church is the body of Christ. Can The foot say it is not part of the body?

Exactly, and I don't want to be a member of A church, I only want to be a member of THE church.
Amen!

Truthfully we are all members of the Church if we have followed Christ through repentance/faith, water baptism, and continuing to walk in obedience to the Scriptures. Whether you attend or stay away makes little difference to your status if you are truly Christ's.

However if the hand disliked the foot so much that it cut itself off of the body it would die as it cannot receive the life giving sustenance the mouth provides. Don't die as a loner, get connected with the other parts

, even if it's not in a stuffy building lol.
God is able!!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Which passage are you referring to, just curious


ahh, no he doesn't.
He says that foolish and ignorant people TWIST Scriptures
"Some of his comments are hard to understand,
and those who are ignorant and unstable have
twisted his letters to mean something quite different,
just as they do with other parts of Scripture.
And this will result in their destruction."


Uhh, no it's not
In fact, in that very passage you used above, Peter refers to Pauls writings as
γραφὰς, the same word always used for OT Scriptures.


Yes they did too


No they're speaking of ALL Scripture,, kind of like it says in
the very passage you're using to say it's not. yikes.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Now this i can amen.

Paul's writings were included, but not considered scriptures. He made it clear they were epistles.
Other scriptures were the OT.
Certainly Peter wasnt saying anyone being 'taught' by the Bishops, the ordained, or the Apostles themselves - were ignorant, but those who for themselves... wrested them.
Wrested is the original English word for wrestling with.

The Apostles did not say they were writings scriptures.
Paul's Epistles were the correct term which means letters.
Why would Peter write it twice?
The same word?

In fact, the Apostles writings were held, maintained, carried, and rewritten many times by the original Church by monks [until a printing press] - and it was not until the late 300's that the Pope and a couple now saints discussed which were accurately written... because by late 300's - gnostic writings found their way into the mix. BUT because God chose the chair of Peter - the Church abided by HIS decision which would be canon, and by HIS decision that it was true, accurate and inerrant.
Nobody else had the power to say that or do that.

Here you are, quoting the text hand picked and chosen by the chair of Peter in 380 + AD and believe you understand it better. And you believe the same line of Peter's chair is unable to accurately understand those same writings. Hmmm

I find it ironic, AT the very least.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What "church" did John the Baptist belong to? Was God able to teach him one on one?

From another thread in GT, I get a sense of why some do not believe that someone can be taught by God outside of an ecclesiastical body. I didn't know this until today but there are some (many?) that believe God doesn't speak to people individually but only through the scriptures. Obviously, with such a belief, it would be impossible to understand how someone can be led by God into truth without the teachings of councils, traditions and such.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I have been quoting this a lot lately, but I think it is applicable here.

From the Preamble to CS Lewis' Mere Christianity.

"I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions — as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else.

It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall, I have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think preferable. It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into the room you will find that the long wait has done some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. This is one of the rules common to the whole house."

 

[Kap6582]

Well I HOPE it's optional based purely on the fact I have read the bible, struggled with it alone, read it again and again and pray daily and would love to have someone to talk to or have something like this in common with but cannot for the life of me 'pick' a church! There'd be at LEAST 50 in my hometown. I don't get it! Why are there so many different types? The only conclusion I can draw is that they all must have different beliefs and tbh I do not have time to 'join' church number one, get to know their ways, agree/disagree then move onto number two etc etc they can't all be right otherwise there'd only be one not 50 to choose from and I'm not about to step foot into the wrong one so I stay away from all. I read and pray daily and have recently joined this group because I had a question that was bothering me. That is all.

 

[Tigger45]

Well I HOPE it's optional based purely on the fact I have read the bible, struggled with it alone, read it again and again and pray daily and would love to have someone to talk to or have something like this in common with but cannot for the life of me 'pick' a church! There'd be at LEAST 50 in my hometown. I don't get it! Why are there so many different types? The only conclusion I can draw is that they all must have different beliefs and tbh I do not have time to 'join' church number one, get to know their ways, agree/disagree then move onto number two etc etc they can't all be right otherwise there'd only be one not 50 to choose from and I'm not about to step foot into the wrong one so I stay away from all. I read and pray daily and have recently joined this group because I had a question that was bothering me. That is all.

I feel your frustration sister and have gone through this very struggle. I think the post above yours by CS Lewis is spot on and when looking back then we can see God's purposes for the time spent waiting in the hall. For me my hall waiting time was ten years and I kept praying, reading my bible and solidifying my theological beliefs. Most Sunday's during that time I visited new churches. Some churches I visited more then just once trying to get a feel for the congregation. No church is perfect but that includes me and God uses those situations to work on our spiritual weaknesses. Outside of a body of believers we aren't challenged to the same degree as we are when we have to start dealing with others in real life sinarios which actually hinders the growth God wants for us. God's blessings.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

but cannot for the life of me 'pick' a church!

I would strongly encourage you to do just that.

they can't all be right

Churches have varying degrees of purity. We must accept that, because we ourselves are not pure.

Here's what the Westminster Confession has to say about a "perfect" church.

The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.​

 

[Llewelyn]

Well I HOPE it's optional based purely on the fact I have read the bible, struggled with it alone, read it again and again and pray daily and would love to have someone to talk to or have something like this in common with but cannot for the life of me 'pick' a church! There'd be at LEAST 50 in my hometown. I don't get it! Why are there so many different types? The only conclusion I can draw is that they all must have different beliefs and tbh I do not have time to 'join' church number one, get to know their ways, agree/disagree then move onto number two etc etc they can't all be right otherwise there'd only be one not 50 to choose from and I'm not about to step foot into the wrong one so I stay away from all. I read and pray daily and have recently joined this group because I had a question that was bothering me. That is all.

That's truly sad, and it really did make me weep. I wonder if you really understand love? I grew up in a family with four brothers and out parents, I can tell you there were huge disagreements, but we were family. Our parents taught us to love and respect each other, even through our hatred and disagreements. The family bond was important above all other things. Shouldn't it be so in the church as well?

I'm glad you came here, at least we get to chat. Thanks for coming.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Matthew 18:20 has been abused by those who wish to justify their forsaking of the local church, but look at the context. It clearly doesn't mean what they want it to.

Is this text about having a coffee at Starbucks and calling it a church service?

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
​

First off, this section of scripture is the worst one that the churchless should quote from, as it's actually dealing with church authority! This is about how to handle an issue with a person who has sinned against another brother in a church, and how those in authority can be sure that even two or three of them have the authority, because Christ is with them, to excommunicate one who refuses to repent for sinning against his brother.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well I HOPE it's optional based purely on the fact I have read the bible, struggled with it alone, read it again and again and pray daily and would love to have someone to talk to or have something like this in common with but cannot for the life of me 'pick' a church! There'd be at LEAST 50 in my hometown. I don't get it! Why are there so many different types? The only conclusion I can draw is that they all must have different beliefs and tbh I do not have time to 'join' church number one, get to know their ways, agree/disagree then move onto number two etc etc they can't all be right otherwise there'd only be one not 50 to choose from and I'm not about to step foot into the wrong one so I stay away from all. I read and pray daily and have recently joined this group because I had a question that was bothering me. That is all.

Welcome to the forums Kap! I hope you will be edified while here.... don't get too caught up in debating those that don't believe as you do but prayerfully consider all that is said. As you already know, the Lord will lead you into all truth, not a denomination.

 

[Rick Otto]

Starbucks 's would be better than some churches I have seen.
But no, your trite put down isn't what it's about.
Try and imagine what it IS about, instead of the scapegoat you want it to be.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

No thanks, i believe its a waste of time. THese Church threads only get me in trouble, and so does Church. I'll be staying away from all that. THe Lord is enough for me.

We dont need to join with anything that causes us to stumble. Romans 14 teaches us not to judge and despise each other over holy days and food restrictions, that however doesnt apply to anything. IF a Church makes you stumble get away, because paul teaches that we should follow only those who walk as he does, and avoid the rest.

Can you provide some examples of church causing one to stumble?