7 Day creation- literal or figurative?

[miamited]

Hi tatteredsoul,

You wrote:

A day was defined before a sun or moon was created. So, what is a day (Hint: the Hebrew explains it)?

This is faulty logic based on association. Today, we tend to think of a day beginning when the sun rises and ending shortly after the sun sets and the moon appears to carry us through the night. However, neither of those heavenly bodies have even the smallest iota of bearing on what constitutes the definition of a day. They are merely events that we have come to 'associate' with a day. They do not have anything to do with what actually makes a day.

A day, you can look it up in any encyclopedia or google it, is defined as the length of time that it takes a planetary body to make one full rotation upon its axis. Therefore, if the earth was created spinning as it still does today, a day would pass in approximately 24 hours whether or not the sun, moon or stars even existed. God could have not even made the sun and we would still have days and years. A day being defined as the time of a single rotation and a year being defined as the time it takes for the earth to make a circuit of its orbit. The earth's orbit does not have to be around our sun, although current scientific models say that the earth's orbit is a function of the sun's gravitational pull.

Now, yes, we have come to understand that the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the planets in their orbits, however, this understanding does have its own problem. If the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the earth in its orbit, then why is the orbit elliptical?

We know that gravitational force becomes stronger the closer you get to the object producing it. We have proven this through the space program. It takes an enormous amount of thrust to move an object like a space flight craft off of the landing pad, but as the craft moves further away from the gravitational pull of the earth, less thrust is needed until it is completely outside of the earth's gravitational pull and then it will move about with just small directional thrusters.

We can orbit the earth, but if we are still within the area of its gravitational influence, the craft will eventually crash to the ground because it begins to be slowly pulled back to the earth and then as it gets nearer and nearer the descent speeds up. It is actually a very exacting calculation as to where satellites need to be to maintain an orbit and there have been several cases of satellites falling through the earth's atmosphere to the ground although the heat generated by this process pretty much destroys them before they get here.

So, why, when the earth is closer to the sun in its orbit doesn't it pull more towards the sun? We have devised a theory called the theory of angular momentum which does a reasonably good job of explaining this phenomenon, but unfortunately falls a bit short. There are some who say that it's because the earth revolves faster when it is near the sun. Ok, then why does my clock still mark the days as 24 hours whether the earth is spinning fast or slow? This is not to be confused with the actual daylight hours decreasing, but the actual length of a day. If the earth is spinning faster for a couple of months, then why doesn't my clock say its midnight when the sun is coming up?

So, there are problems to be worked out yet as to why the earth continues to revolve around the sun at varying distances from the sun and still retain what appears to us to be a fairly stable orbit for decades, centuries and such. Even Newton, who did so much study involving gravity, questioned this ability based on the design of the earth's orbit.

The answer, of course, for the believer is that God holds the universe in its place and the stars and planets in their courses. It is merely by the power and design of God's creation that the universe will exist for all eternity. We are told that there is coming a time when the sun and stars will flee from the heavens. That in the eternal existence there will be no need of the sun to give light upon the earth for God will be our light. Does this mean that the earth will just travel for eternity with no orbit, but merely wander throughout the universe? Possibly. After all, so long as the atmosphere remains covering the earth people can still live on it no matter where it is in the universe.

However, these thoughts and questions are not the subject of this thread. I merely point out that the sun and moon are not necessary for a day to pass on the earth. Their appearing and setting are merely events associated with a day.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[tatteredsoul]

Hi tatteredsoul,

You wrote:


This is faulty logic based on association. Today, we tend to think of a day beginning when the sun rises and ending shortly after the sun sets and the moon appears to carry us through the night. However, neither of those heavenly bodies have even the smallest iota of bearing on what constitutes the definition of a day. They are merely events that we have come to 'associate' with a day. They do not have anything to do with what actually makes a day.

A day, you can look it up in any encyclopedia or google it, is defined as the length of time that it takes a planetary body to make one full rotation upon its axis. Therefore, if the earth was created spinning as it still does today, a day would pass in approximately 24 hours whether or not the sun, moon or stars even existed. God could have not even made the sun and we would still have days and years. A day being defined as the time of a single rotation and a year being defined as the time it takes for the earth to make a circuit of its orbit. The earth's orbit does not have to be around our sun, although current scientific models say that the earth's orbit is a function of the sun's gravitational pull.

Now, yes, we have come to understand that the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the planets in their orbits, however, this understanding does have its own problem. If the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the earth in its orbit, then why is the orbit elliptical?

We know that gravitational force becomes stronger the closer you get to the object producing it. We have proven this through the space program. It takes an enormous amount of thrust to move an object like a space flight craft off of the landing pad, but as the craft moves further away from the gravitational pull of the earth, less thrust is needed until it is completely outside of the earth's gravitational pull and then it will move about with just small directional thrusters.

We can orbit the earth, but if we are still within the area of its gravitational influence, the craft will eventually crash to the ground because it begins to be slowly pulled back to the earth and then as it gets nearer and nearer the descent speeds up. It is actually a very exacting calculation as to where satellites need to be to maintain an orbit and there have been several cases of satellites falling through the earth's atmosphere to the ground although the heat generated by this process pretty much destroys them before they get here.

So, why, when the earth is closer to the sun in its orbit doesn't it pull more towards the sun? We have devised a theory called the theory of angular momentum which does a reasonably good job of explaining this phenomenon, but unfortunately falls a bit short. There are some who say that it's because the earth revolves faster when it is near the sun. Ok, then why does my clock still mark the days as 24 hours whether the earth is spinning fast or slow? This is not to be confused with the actual daylight hours decreasing, but the actual length of a day. If the earth is spinning faster for a couple of months, then why doesn't my clock say its midnight when the sun is coming up?

So, there are problems to be worked out yet as to why the earth continues to revolve around the sun at varying distances from the sun and still retain what appears to us to be a fairly stable orbit for decades, centuries and such. Even Newton, who did so much study involving gravity, questioned this ability based on the design of the earth's orbit.

The answer, of course, for the believer is that God holds the universe in its place and the stars and planets in their courses. It is merely by the power and design of God's creation that the universe will exist for all eternity. We are told that there is coming a time when the sun and stars will flee from the heavens. That in the eternal existence there will be no need of the sun to give light upon the earth for God will be our light. Does this mean that the earth will just travel for eternity with no orbit, but merely wander throughout the universe? Possibly. After all, so long as the atmosphere remains covering the earth people can still live on it no matter where it is in the universe.

However, these thoughts and questions are not the subject of this thread. I merely point out that the sun and moon are not necessary for a day to pass on the earth. Their appearing and setting are merely events associated with a day.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

The Hebrew explains this very well. A day is a period of time. It can mean anything from the hot of the day to the cool, or an eon, or an age, or an unspecified period of time. That is what the HEBREW "YOM" means - which long predated modern encyclopedias and modern physics and cosmology. Moses spoke Hebrew/Aramaic; the scibes did also. The connotations were understood according to the Hebrew.

In the same way, the word "day" is, indeed used as a period of time, rather than cosmological events, or hours in a day. The day of the Lord... the days of No'e...

The scribes aren't saying, "In the 24, 48, 72, 216, 5048 hours... of Noah." The context is "the age, the time period," which could span anywhere from hours to millenia.

This is why talking about the creation at any point in terms of hours or years is the actual faulty logic because the context of the "day" is explicitly elined in the Hebrew. In fact, the words "evening and morning" in Hebrew (again, without a sun or moon) point to even more detail on what a day actually is - and it is spiritual in nature.

T
On a side note, but very important: the actual earth was created before the definition of time existed - it was created with heaven.

 

[-57]

I think we may have a misunderstanding here?
I am probably 80% old earth, 20% new earth.
I was up until about a month ago 100% new earth.

I have been studying into this and I am not 100% convinced of either one yet. Just because I may agree with an old earth does not mean I agree with and have faith in evolution. I do believe in micro evolution, it's pretty obvious, however, macro evolution I disagree with and they have no proof.

Also, there are many old earth believers out there, and they are Christians just as new earth believers are.
During these discussion, I want to learn, hey you may be correct, I dunno?

I may challenge you and expect to be challenged by you and others.

I believe (I hope) we have one thing in common, we believe we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ.

10-4 Foghorn.

 

[-57]

How so? Just because you make a statement does not prove anything.

Please tell me how believing in an old earth fails to explain original sin?

Because the old earth...typically evolutionist...Theo-Evo's have no way of explaining how sin and death entered into the world.
The bible tells us it was because of one man. The Theo-Evo's can't make that claim.

 

[-57]

Are you a Calvinist?

I agree with the Calvinist theology.

 

[-57]

But, Foghorn, it is illogical to believe in micro-evolution and then not in macro. You cannot have one without the other. Tat is a common mistake many people make.

That would be incorrect. Micro-evolution uses already existing DNA or removes already existing DNA. No need for new information in the DNA code.

 

[-57]

I see. You want the agreement of the religious community to be ABOVE God's Holy Word. Jesus said of the respected religion of His day:

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Will you present a web site or not? It would be interesting reading with the whole theory presented rather than the tide-bits you present. If there isn't a source i can go to and learn about your theory...then once again I have to say your belief is pretty much a waste of time.

 

[miamited]

Hi tatteredsoul,

You wrote:

The Hebrew explains this very well. A day is a period of time. It can mean anything from the hot of the day to the cool, or an eon, or an age, or an unspecified period of time. That is what the HEBREW "YOM" means - which long predated modern encyclopedias and modern physics and cosmology. Moses spoke Hebrew/Aramaic; the scibes did also. The connotations were understood according to the Hebrew.

In the same way, the word "day" is, indeed used as a period of time, rather than cosmological events, or hours in a day. The day of the Lord... the days of No'e...

Oh, absolutely! I get that and I know that God gets that, too. Thus, when He caused to be written 'yom' in the Hebrew text, He further defined that 'yom' as consisting of an evening and a morning. I challenge you to find me any written evidence where someone wrote the word 'day', defined it as an 'evening and a morning', and intended the reader to understand that it was a length of time different from a planetary rotational 'day'.

I've asked that question dozens of times and everyone always brings me all these other places in the Scriptures where 'yom' is written that doesn't mean a 24 hour day, but they've never been able to show the word 'yom' written with the qualifier of an evening and a morning. Somehow they just never seem to get what I'm asking for.

'Yom' is just like our word 'day' today. We can use the word day to mean a period of time much different than a normal 24 hour day, but then we don't say, 'in the 'evening and the morning' of the day of the Amalekites, Israel fought a great battle against them. Both the word 'yom' and 'day' need qualifiers to be found in their contextual usage to understand exactly what period of time is being referred to. God knows that and God gave them.

It's the story of the man who wanted to communicate to ants. He tried talking to them in english language but they just didn't seem to get it. He realized that if he wanted to communicate with ants that he would have to become an ant and speak to them in ant language, whatever that is. God similarly wanted to communicate with man and in order to do that He had to have the Scriptures written by men in the language in which they understood. God knows all about our language and its proper and best understood usage and knew that 'yom' needed a qualifier and so He put one in there. He could have just as easily caused to be written, 'well, I did this and this and that was the end of the first day'. We would then argue til the cows came home what kind of days they were, as to their length, and so God had written 'there was evening and morning the first day'. The 'evening and morning' qualify the word 'day'. Those simple words written with the word 'day' or 'yom' tell us exactly what kind of day it was. It was a day with an evening and a morning just like the days we experience every day of our lives and all the lives that have been lived since the creation.

I suppose I might as well bat a 1000 here. No! The earth was created first at the beginning of the first day and it was rotating and so in approximately 24 hours that first day was over. It was created all by itself standing singularly in all of the universe with not a star or other planet anywhere to be seen. God just said, 'Let the earth exist', and instantly there was this spinning ball of a planet existing where nothing had ever existed before. It was covered with water and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters and He continued to work with only the earth in creating around it an atmosphere and dry land and then, after He was done with the physical features of the earth, He swept His hand, so to speak, across the universe and just as instantly filled the entire universe with stars and planets and comets and meteors and all the other physical forms that make up the universe. They were all created instantly and the light that each one gives off was just as instantly visible upon the face of the earth.

God was creating a realm of existence in which man could live. When He finished in five rotations of the earth all that was necessary, both on the earth and around the earth, what was necessary for man to exist, He made the first man. Told him to go about populating the earth. Thus, you and I are here today. We live and exist in a realm created by a God who loves us and wants to live with us just as He has lived with the angels whom He also created. One day, just as quickly, God is going to bring it all to a close. All those who have lived in His creation and given Him the glory, majesty and love and adoration for who He is and all that He has done that we even exist will then be given the right and joy of living eternally with Him. All those who refuse to acknowledge Him as He desires to be acknowledged will live apart from both Him and us.

Friend, we live in a created realm that was created just exactly how and when God has told us that it was created. The first man, Adam, by following through the genealogies that God has also purposed to be written in the Scriptures, was created about 6,000 years ago after God's creating this realm in which he could live in 5 simple rotations of the planet.

He is a great and powerful and wise and majestic God who asks us to acknowledge Him and love Him just as He loves us. We either will or we won't.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hoghead1]

Hello, Foghorn. No, you did not offend me. However, I do not have either the time nor the inclination to go looking at other sources or websites. I am here to discuss with you, not them. The purpose o f this group is discussion , so I am curious to hear what your rebuttal is to my argument.

 

[Hoghead1]

Could you explain that again, -57?

 

[Foghorn]

Because the old earth...typically evolutionist...Theo-Evo's have no way of explaining how sin and death entered into the world.
The bible tells us it was because of one man. The Theo-Evo's can't make that claim.

I believe as the bible says, through one man, "Adam."
I still do not see your reasoning.

 

[Foghorn]

Oops another double post.

 

[Foghorn]

​

Hello, Foghorn. No, you did not offend me.

Good I am glad.

However, I do not have either the time nor the inclination to go looking at other sources or websites. I am here to discuss with you, not them. The purpose o f this group is discussion , so

Ok. Fair enough.

I am curious to hear what your rebuttal is to my argument.

Hh, as you are aware macro evolution claims different species of animals through evolution can naturally assemble entirely new information and therefore from, say a horse, it could change into an entirely new animal with nothing to do with a horse.We know this is not true.

Micro evolution claims changes within the species, for example, different breeds of dogs or cats. Though some things may change within them, dogs will always be a dog, and a cat will always be a cat.

Therefore someone can claim to believe in micro evolution but not in macro evolution.

 

[Foghorn]

You could also say that there is no way that Noah could fit all the animals on the ark, but the animal species were probably not as diverse as they are today.

But there still were quite a few I bet.

For example, in Adam's and Noah's times, there probably were not horned owls and snow owls, they probably just had one species of owl.

That is very possible. Through micro evolution, we now see all sorts of owls.

Also, Adam could have named the species collectively. So instead of having owls, cardinals, and crows, he probably just called them all birds.

That assumption seems highly unlikely. If that be the case, he could have named all the animals, "animals" and all the fish, "fish."

Sounds kinda silly.

 

[Foghorn]

I agree with the Calvinist theology.

That is good to hear.

 

[Riberra]

Now, yes, we have come to understand that the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the planets in their orbits, however, this understanding does have its own problem. If the gravitational force of the sun is what keeps the earth in its orbit, then why is the orbit elliptical?

We know that gravitational force becomes stronger the closer you get to the object producing it. We have proven this through the space program. It takes an enormous amount of thrust to move an object like a space flight craft off of the landing pad, but as the craft moves further away from the gravitational pull of the earth, less thrust is needed until it is completely outside of the earth's gravitational pull and then it will move about with just small directional thrusters.

We can orbit the earth, but if we are still within the area of its gravitational influence, the craft will eventually crash to the ground because it begins to be slowly pulled back to the earth and then as it gets nearer and nearer the descent speeds up. It is actually a very exacting calculation as to where satellites need to be to maintain an orbit and there have been several cases of satellites falling through the earth's atmosphere to the ground although the heat generated by this process pretty much destroys them before they get here.

So, why, when the earth is closer to the sun in its orbit doesn't it pull more towards the sun? We have devised a theory called the theory of angular momentum which does a reasonably good job of explaining this phenomenon, but unfortunately falls a bit short. There are some who say that it's because the earth revolves faster when it is near the sun. Ok, then why does my clock still mark the days as 24 hours whether the earth is spinning fast or slow?
This is not to be confused with the actual daylight hours decreasing, but the actual length of a day. If the earth is spinning faster for a couple of months, then why doesn't my clock say its midnight when the sun is coming up?

You have the spinning of the Earth on his axis (Rotation) and the movement of the Earth around the Sun (Orbit) confused.

The Earth is not spinning faster or slower in its movement around the Sun.

Do you know that a big earthquake can affect Earth's rotation on his axis ?
NASA - Japan Quake May Have Shortened Earth Days, Moved Axis
www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/japanquake/earth20110314.html -

-As for your question "then why does my clock still mark the days as 24 hours whether the earth is spinning fast or slow? "

A clock is a mechanical or electronic tool made to calculate the time...even if the Earth ceased to exist , a clock on bord of the space station would still give a 24 hours time.

So, there are problems to be worked out yet as to why the earth continues to revolve around the sun at varying distances from the sun and still retain what appears to us to be a fairly stable orbit for decades, centuries and such. Even Newton, who did so much study involving gravity, questioned this ability based on the design of the earth's orbit.

No problem at all.... only your misconception is in cause.

How Does Gravity & Inertia Keep the Planets in Orbit Around the Sun?
http://education.seattlepi.com/gravity-inertia-keep-planets-orbit-around-sun-6434.html

 

[Hoghead1]

I guess, -57, I would quality as a theo-evo, though I would use another term. And yes, we do have a well-developed doctrine of death and sin. Death is in the world because God has the universe in a state of never-ending creative flux. Hence, the old must perish in order to bring in the new. Sin occurs because God's goal is aesthetic, to maximize beauty in the world. Beauty means complexity, and complexity means freedom, things can happen some other way. If you had a piano with just one note, nobody playing it could ever play a wrong note. If you have a piano with 88 keys, then the possibility exists of someone misusing it, banging on it, missing notes, etc. Chances for good always go with chances for evil, in other words. The fire that warms you can also kill you. Moment to moment, God provides us with creative possibilities to maximize beauty in the world. But God does not coerce or force us; God lures us. God cannot decide for us, we have to decide for ourselves. Sin occurs when we make the wrong choice, which can happen for any number of reasons. I, for one, do not believe in original sin. I do not think it is a biblical concept, to start with. And it think it is as defeatist attitude. If wee all are born evil through and through, then let's go be as evil as we can. After all, it's bad to fight against your true nature. See what I mean?

 

[miamited]

Hi riberra,

You responded to my post:

The Earth is not spinning faster or slower in its movement around the Sun.

You are likely correct about my misreading the theory of the change in speed of the earth as it orbits the sun. It was just something I had googled while I was responding and yes, I apparently misunderstood that when it said the earth moved faster at different point on its orbit that it was referring to the spinning motion rather than its forward motion.

And yes, my misunderstanding about the motion that the article was speaking about led me to question why a clock would still keep up with the length of the day, which would be shortened if the earth were to 'spin' faster. However, I do understand that it wouldn't have any bearing on the earth moving along its orbit faster.

Thanks for the correction.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Riberra]

I understand how a clock works and it is because I understand how a clock works that I asked if the earth did revolve faster during some points of its orbit, then why doesn't my clock tell me it's midnight when the sun's coming up. Let me explain it in more simple terms. If the earth revolves faster at some times than others, than the days wouldn't be 24 hours. If the days, for an extended period of time, say a couple of months were shorter because of the faster spinning earth, then eventually my clock would be telling me that it's midnight when I see the sun coming up. Of course, that all depends on how much faster it's spinning, but nevertheless, even 5 minutes faster per day would set my clock off by 2-3 hours in two months time.

So, I was shooting holes in the theory that some people, not me, hold to explain why the earth doesn't fall into the sun.

Hi!

I don't think that you have succeeded in shooting holes at all....

Because the Earth IS NOT spinning faster or slower in its movement around the Sun.

Here a simple test to verify if your claim is valid or not:

--If your claim is right then your clock example would be right... but we don't observe that.


http://education.seattlepi.com/gravity-inertia-keep-planets-orbit-around-sun-6434.html

From the link:
Because their orbits are elliptical, the planets don't move with uniform velocities -- they speed up and slow down at regular intervals. The periods of increased velocity compensate for those of decreased velocity to keep each planet's orbit stable.

Orbit = The Earth moving around the Sun.It take 365 days (1 year) for the Earth to complete an orbit around the Sun.

 

[OzSpen]

morning oz,

You asked:


No, I'll debate such issues, I just said that I was hesitant to accept them for myself. I mean really, how would you ever know?

Seems to me that you have cooked your own goose. Luke is dead and gone. Why would you want to accept questionable interpretations in Luke-Acts?

How would you every know? Luke is dead. It's called using grammatical-historical hermeneutics that applies to Aristotle's works, Augustine's City of God, and the biblical documents.