7 Day creation- literal or figurative?

[-57]

Amen, since God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science currently being announced. Here's what He told Daniel:

Dan 12:4 ¶ But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

.

Yes, knowledge increased....and presented soft dino tissue which shows the eath isn't old.

He lso made integrated circuits.

 

[Aman777]

Wrong. The bible says God created man in his own image.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 1:27 said God finished.

Gen 9:6 confirms what I said "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

What does the invisible God look like? God looks like Jesus, also called YHWH in the Old Testament and here is His Image, which He has regained today:

Eze 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of His loins even downward, fire; and from His loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.

Jesus is brighter than the noonday Sun and blinded Saul on the road to Damascus AND Jesus is also the Literal Light of Heaven. Rev 21:23 To be "created in God's Image" is to be born again Spiritually in Christ. Amen?

 

[-57]

What does the invisible God look like? God looks like Jesus, also called YHWH in the Old Testament and here is His Image, which He has regained today:

Eze 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of His loins even downward, fire; and from His loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.

Jesus is brighter than the noonday Sun and blinded Saul on the road to Damascus AND Jesus is also the Literal Light of Heaven. Rev 21:23 To be "created in God's Image" is to be born again Spiritually in Christ. Amen?

I can give you several opinions of what "IMAGE" means. What makes your cultish opinion correct/

 

[Aman777]

I can give you several opinions of what "IMAGE" means. What makes your cultish opinion correct/

It's supported by Scripture:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood,even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 ¶ Who is the Image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

 

[-57]

It's supported by Scripture:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood,even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 ¶ Who is the Image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Dude, humans are fallen...you do know that?

 

[benelchi]

You tell us that you alone have correctly understood Scripture, and that every translation throughout history was wrong!

Scripture tells us that "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation." (2 Pet. 1:20 ESV)

I think I will place my trust in Scripture! Sorry but I just do not trust that you alone have understood something that godly men throughout history failed to understand.

Amen, since God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science currently being announced. Here's what He told Daniel:

Dan 12:4 ¶ But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Increased knowledge at the time of the end will pour out God's Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, upon ALL Flesh, including Unbelievers.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

A good example is the Scientific Fact that every living creature that moves had it's origin in water. Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things - The New York Times
www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/science/last-universal-ancestor.html

This was announced in July 2016. God told us the SAME thing in Genesis 1:21 more than 3k years ago. It's empirical (testable) evidence of the Literal God. The future scientific discoveries, in the last days, will continue to confirm what God told us in Genesis chapter One.

 

[-57]

You tell us that you alone have correctly understood Scripture, and that every translation throughout history was wrong!

Scripture tells us that "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation." (2 Pet. 1:20 ESV)

I think I will place my trust in Scripture! Sorry but I just do not trust that you alone have understood something that godly men throughout history failed to understand.

I mignt agree with you on all things benelchi, but I agree here.

Contravercy is a great learning tool.

 

[Aman777]

You tell us that you alone have correctly understood Scripture, and that every translation throughout history was wrong!

False accusation since EVERY person (ALL Flesh) of the last days will be able to understand what God told in His Holy Word Luk 3:6 PLUS, I have NEVER said that everyone was wrong on what Scripture said since I show that Adam and Eve KNEW and were born again Spiritually in Christ AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2

Some people prefer their false religious views and CANNOT support them with Scripture. Can you?

Do you know WHY God hid His Truth from ancient men? allowing ONLY the people of the last days, with increased knowledge to understand?

 

[benelchi]

You claim is that every known bible translation in every known language is wrong! You supposition that Adam and Eve knew something different is unfounded, and your claim that others will know in the future is also unfounded. Again, I will put my trust in God's word which means I must reject your false claims about God's word.

False accusation since EVERY person (ALL Flesh) of the last days will be able to understand what God told in His Holy Word Luk 3:6 PLUS, I have NEVER said that everyone was wrong on what Scripture said since I show that Adam and Eve KNEW and were born again Spiritually in Christ AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2

Some people prefer their false religious views and CANNOT support them with Scripture. Can you?

Do you know WHY God hid His Truth from ancient men? allowing ONLY the people of the last days, with increased knowledge to understand?

 

[Papias]

Note, most scholars see Ge. 1:1-2 as an introductory text that summarized all of what is coming in the rest of the narrative.

Likely true for 1:1, but not true for 1:2, which was the whole point. The initial state is an ocean, which is explicitly stated in Gen 1:2, and which matches creation stories from surrounding areas, like Babylon and Egypt.

That is exactly what science tells us happened i.e. light existed at the very moment of the "big bang" before any stars existed, but until the "big bang" cooled moments, light could not be seen. At the point where it cooled enough, light became visible.

One may debate whether this is what Genesis 1 is talking about, but one cannot argue that there cannot be light without the sun because science tells us otherwise.

Wrong - day 1 ends by explicitly saying there was darkness, then light. Days are defined by the rotation of the earth, so this couldn't be light from the big bang, because the big bang's visible light had ceased long before the earth formed.

This is a highly debated theory that is rejected by the majority of Hebrew scholars.

I don't think so. If you think so, please post support. Bible scholars are pretty unified that the "firmament" is a solid bowl. Here is a good summary of both Hebrew and evidence based scholars (and this is published in a peer-reviewed journal). The Firmament and the Water Above: Seely

Theories like the "Framework" theory, resolve a whole lot of these issues.
.....This is one of the more difficult sequence issues.

Yes, I agree. They do. The framework realization solves all these sequence issues nicely - by showing that genesis is not written in chronological order (which is my whole point, and which refutes the point of this thread).

The framework idea is obvious once it is pointed out. Days 1 -3 are parallel to days 4-6, with the basic creation being done in days 1-3, and that thing being filled with more detail in days 4-6.

Day //Creation // Day // Details/filled with
1 // light // 4 // Sun, moon, stars of light
2 // sea and sky // 5 // sea creatures & sky creatures
3 // land // 6 // land creatures (including humans)

The creation account in Genesis is uniquely different from the other ANE creation accounts. To try and equate them requires one to ignore significant evidence to the contrary.

Practically all Biblical scholars recognize Genesis as a refutation of the Babylonian story, and patterned after it. This is nothing new.

Here is a devoted Christian Biblical scholar who explains many of these issues in great detail.

Enjoy-

Papias

 

[benelchi]

Likely true for 1:1, but not true for 1:2, which was the whole point. The initial state is an ocean, which is explicitly stated in Gen 1:2, and which matches creation stories from surrounding areas, like Babylon and Egypt.

Wrong - day 1 ends by explicitly saying there was darkness, then light. Days are defined by the rotation of the earth, so this couldn't be light from the big bang, because the big bang's visible light had ceased long before the earth formed.

Out of curiosity, how does your bible translate 2 Chronicles 21:19?

I don't think so. If you think so, please post support. Bible scholars are pretty unified that the "firmament" is a solid bowl. Here is a good summary of both Hebrew and evidence based scholars (and this is published in a peer-reviewed journal). The Firmament and the Water Above: Seely

I provide articles when I have time. For the moment I will just give you an example from Scripture that defies this definition i.e. "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. (Ps. 19:1 ESV)"

Hebrew poetry is characterized by its use of parallelism and its reliance on synonyms. Here heavens (שמים) and sky (רקיע) are treated as synonyms.

 

[Papias]

I provide articles when I have time. For the moment I will just give you an example from Scripture that defies this definition i.e. "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. (Ps. 19:1 ESV)"

Since you didn't address the evidence, articles, and scholars referenced, I'll take that to mean that you accept them until I see otherwise.

Out of curiosity, how does your bible translate 2 Chronicles 21:19?

The NIV has this:

In the course of time, at the end of the second year, his bowels came out because of the disease, and he died in great pain. His people made no funeral fire in his honor, as they had for his predecessors.​

Though of course I look at different Bibles as well.

For the moment I will just give you an example from Scripture that defies this definition i.e. "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. (Ps. 19:1 ESV)"

Hebrew poetry is characterized by its use of parallelism and its reliance on synonyms. Here heavens (שמים) and sky (רקיע) are treated as synonyms.

Hebrew poetry is indeed characterized by parallelism - and that parallelism is not usually of exact synonyms (which usually don't exist in languages anyway), but rather of related terms.

Yes, of course the heavens (which are up near the sky) are related to the sky.

That's completely consistent with everything I've posted.
In Christ-

Papias

 

[benelchi]

Since you didn't address the evidence, articles, and scholars referenced, I'll take that to mean that you accept them until I see otherwise.

The stars are depicted as the brightness of the (Dan 12:3). The atmosphere then is depicted as a canopy or dome spread out over the earth. There is no indication, however, that the author conceived of it as a solid mass, a “firmament” (AV) that supported a body of waters above it. The “expanse” describes both the place in which the luminaries were set (vv. 14–15,17) and the sky where the birds are observed (v. 20). Thus Genesis’ description of the “expanse” is phenomenological—to the observer on earth, the sun and stars appear to sit in the skies while at the same time birds glide through the atmosphere, piercing the skies. In the Old Testament elsewhere there is evidence that the Hebrews understood that clouds produced rain and thus, from a phenomenological perspective, “water” can be described as belonging to the upper atmosphere.
Mathews, Kenneth; Mathews, K. A.. The New American Commentary Volume 1 - Genesis 1-11 B&H Publishing.

Hebrew poetry is indeed characterized by parallelism - and that parallelism is not usually of exact synonyms (which usually don't exist in languages anyway), but rather of related terms.

Yes, of course the heavens (which are up near the sky) are related to the sky.

That's completely consistent with everything I've posted.
In Christ-

Papias

The correspondence of synonyms is much higher in Hebrew because of this characteristic feature of Hebrew poetry. And this is not the only example.

הוָ֤ה׀ בְּֽהֵיכַ֤ל֘ קָדְשׁ֗וֹ יְהוָה֘ בַּשָּׁמַ֪יִם כִּ֫סְא֥וֹ (Ps. 11:4 BHS) Here we see God's temple in the heavens (shamyim)

The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; (Ps. 11:4 ESV)


הַ֥לְלוּ יָ֙הּ׀ הַֽלְלוּ־אֵ֥ל בְּקָדְשׁ֑וֹ הַֽ֜לְל֗וּהוּ בִּרְקִ֥יעַ עֻזּֽוֹ (Ps. 150:1 BHS) And Here we see it in the heavens (raqiya).

Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! (Ps. 150:1 ESV)

Additionally we have references like:

כול מלאכי רקיע קודש (4Q504 7:6 QST) "All of the angels of Holy heaven. (raqiya)

The NIV has this:

In the course of time, at the end of the second year, his bowels came out because of the disease, and he died in great pain. His people made no funeral fire in his honor, as they had for his predecessors.​

Though of course I look at different Bibles as well.

The Hebrew texts reads:

‎ וכעת צאת הקץ לימים שׁנים (And as [the bowels] going out [was at] the end [of] two days).

Like the NIV, every translation that I am aware of translates this as "two years." So while you said "days are defined by the rotation of the earth," clearly this isn't the definition that most Hebrew scholars have accepted.

 

[Papias]

.....
Mathews, Kenneth; Mathews, K. A.. The New American Commentary Volume 1 - Genesis 1-11 B&H Publishing.

Thanks, that's helpful. It shows that there is some diversity of view, as agreed earlier. Kenneth Mathews is a real scholar, so this is on par with the video I gave of John Heiser - a real scholar who shows that the Bibles give us a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater - by far the most common view.

This can also be seen that the only peer reviewed point we have (the Seely paper), is the accepted view that the Bibles give us a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater.

הוָ֤ה׀ בְּֽהֵיכַ֤ל֘ קָדְשׁ֗וֹ יְהוָה֘ בַּשָּׁמַ֪יִם כִּ֫סְא֥וֹ (Ps. 11:4 BHS) Here we see God's temple in the heavens (shamyim)

All of those examples are consistent with what I said earlier - that parallelisms require similarity, and not an exact match.

Like the NIV, every translation that I am aware of translates this as "two years." So while you said "days are defined by the rotation of the earth," clearly this isn't the definition that most Hebrew scholars have accepted.

Perhaps - so are you saying that the Genesis days don't mean actual days, and could mean longer spans of time?

In Christ -

Papias

 

[benelchi]

Thanks, that's helpful. It shows that there is some diversity of view, as agreed earlier. Kenneth Mathews is a real scholar, so this is on par with the video I gave of John Heiser - a real scholar who shows that the Bibles give us a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater - by far the most common view.

This can also be seen that the only peer reviewed point we have (the Seely paper), is the accepted view that the Bibles give us a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater.

This has been a debate in Hebrew scholarship for some time, and many scholars rejected the "solid dome" theory. Here is another example:

Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary

When the light had been separated from the darkness, and day and night had been created, there followed upon a second fiat of the Creator, the division of the chaotic mass of waters through the formation of the firmament, which was placed as a wall of separation (מבדּיל) in the midst of the waters, and divided them into upper and lower waters. רקיע .s, from רקע to stretch, spread out, then beat or tread out, means expansum, the spreading out of the air, which surrounds the earth as an atmosphere. According to optical appearance, it is described as a carpet spread out above the earth (Psalm 54:2), a curtain (Isaiah 40:22), a transparent work of sapphire (Exodus 24:10), or a molten looking-glass (Job 37:18); but there is nothing in these poetical similes to warrant the idea that the heavens were regarded as a solid mass, a σιδήρεον, or χάλκεον or πολύχαλκον, such as Greek poets describe.

All of those examples are consistent with what I said earlier - that parallelisms require similarity, and not an exact match.

Parallelism in Hebrew typically requires a greater degree of "sameness" than you are suggesting. Additionally, in the last examples the preposition ב (in) is used with both רקיע and שמים. If the ancients really viewed רקיע as a "solid dome" then we would have expected a preposition like על (on/above) instead.

Example:

you shall serve God on this mountain. (Exod. 3:12 ESV)
‎ תַּֽעַבְדוּן֙ אֶת־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים עַ֖ל הָהָ֥ר הַזֶּֽה (Exod. 3:12 BHS)

Perhaps - so are you saying that the Genesis days don't mean actual days, and could mean longer spans of time?

I would say that it isn't clear; either 24 hours or longer periods of time are valid understandings of this text. Because the text itself is unique in Scripture (and in comparison to other Hebrew literature), it is difficult to come to an absolute conclusion. Even in ancient times there was significant disagreement about the length of the days in Genesis 1 i.e. 1000 years, 24 hours, instantaneous, etc....

In Christ -

Papias[/QUOTE]