I'm just not there yet. And I'm not going to prejudge before I get there. What's the hurry?
I'm not trying to persuade you to become Reformed. I just believe that Rome is the wrong way to go. But it sounds to me like you're already there! So what are the obstacles that remain that would prevent you from converting to Roman Catholicism?
I'm working through this chronologically and dealing with issues as they arise. And Rome isn't necessarily the destination. I've barely even looked at Eastern Orthodoxy and only have pretty prejudiced views of Lutheranism and the Reformed tradition and Anglicanism. I will look at those more closely -- yes, even Reformed. Right now I don't really appreciate that one badgering me, though.If you are convinced that the Roman Catholic church is the true church then it would be a sin to drag your feet in becoming a member of that church.
So you're clearly not yet convinced. I'm just wondering what issues remain that stand in the way. Why aren't you there yet?
I'm working through this chronologically and dealing with issues as they arise. And Rome isn't necessarily the destination. I've barely even looked at Eastern Orthodoxy and only have pretty prejudiced views of Lutheranism and the Reformed tradition and Anglicanism. I will look at those more closely -- yes, even Reformed. Right now I don't really appreciate that one badgering me, though.
Why are you pushing her towards Rome? And is her current, incredibly vague trajectory even towards Rome? I would say it includes Rome, along with any number of more liturgical and traditional Christian Churches and bodies, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike.
Catholicism is just the paradigm example used to create contrast with Protestantism. When you begin to zoom in the geography becomes considerably more complicated, and the considerations she has revealed to us are simply insufficient to lead to Rome and nowhere else.
@Mary Meg
The Bible gives us the reason for baptism here:
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
(1 Peter 3:21).
Baptism saves us not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin), but baptism is an answer of a person having an already clean or good conscience toward God already.
In other words, if you know you are forgiven of your sins by Jesus Christ.... the phone is ringing for you to answer the call to be baptized as a testimony to others before God that you are already clean (i.e. that your conscience is surely clean; Meaning: You are forgiven, your sins are washed away. Baptism is a picture or symbol of this and you are telling others this before God). You will have a desire to want to be baptized after you have been saved. Baptism is not to be saved... but it is something that God will place on your heart to answer.
So baptism is symbolic. Also, in 1 Peter 3:21, baptism is said to be a figure or picture [symbol], too. A person is first saved by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13).
For Catholics faith is a necessary condition for baptism, but the baptism itself actually does something that the faith alone cannot do.
That is not what 1 Peter 3 is saying at all. In fact, his point is the exact opposite of what is promoted by Evangelical apologists.
He gives the example of Noah and his family being saved through the waters, and then says that baptism now saves through the Resurrection of Christ.
He makes the parenthetical point about "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, etc" for a specific reason. The word "baptism" isn't a unique or "special" word in Greek as it is in English. Prior to the Christians and perhaps the Essenes, the word "baptism" in Greek was simply the common word for "washing". Peter is emphasizing that he is not using the word in the common way - a bath to get rid of dirt from the skin - but in the new way used by the Christians, which is an appeal to God for a good conscious (the NASB handles this much more accurately than most others). Peter is EXPLICITLY stating that baptism is not just getting wet, but is rather accomplishing something inward.
Yet somehow Evangelicals turn it around to say that Peter is saying that baptism is nothing special.
But faith, in teens and adults, precedes baptism- sometimes by years. When I was in RCIA the unbaptized catechumens were not baptized at the beginning because they were in a dangerous state of not being saved until their baptism. They were allowed to go through the 9 month process unbaptized. That's irresponsible if baptism is what saves you. But church teaching is that other things can substitute for baptism; martyrdom and the desire to be baptized (since VII they have greatly expanded on what desire to be baptized is, to where you don't even have to desire Christ at all). What it practically works out to is the Protestant position; it is your faith that save you. Baptism may give you many graces, but were you one of those unbaptized catechumens and you died, you would be ok because you believed, and you desired to be baptized.
the arminians started it to show how different it is from their theology.This thread is dedicated to @Mary Meg
How do you know whether or not you should be a Protestant? Let's take a look at where Protestantism began - with the Five Solas. All Reformational theology flows from these five principles, which are actually five objections to Roman Catholic theology. So take a look at each of these and see how it sits with you. If you agree with these, you are not Roman Catholic and could never be. But if you disagree with them, you're not being biblical! Sorry, had to reveal my bias there.
1. Sola Scriptura - The Bible alone is the word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.
2. Solus Christus - Jesus Christ is the only savior of sinners and his atoning sacrifice is sufficient to save them.
3. Sola Gratia - Our salvation is not earned in any part; it is a free gift of God from start to finish.
4. Sola Fide - We are forgiven our sins and counted righteous in God’s sight solely by trusting in Christ.
5. Soli Deo Gloria - The ultimate end of all God’s works in creation and redemption is his own glory alone.
Don't make me cry by trying to deny any of these wonderful doctrines.
the arminians started it to show how different it is from their theology.
That's an interesting snapshot of 16th century Protestantism, but it's doubtful how well it captures modern Protestant bodies, many of which would deny various Solas under the meaning ascribed to them by the original Reformers.
A more interesting thread would be, "What's the difference between Protestants and Catholics?" What do folks think are the key differences in the 21st century?
Did you even read my last post?
I love my church and my heritage, which is my family. I love a lot of things about Protestantism. And despite what you may think, I haven't sworn my allegiance to Rome or anybody else. My studies have taken me to about 400 A.D. There is more than one option from than juncture -- even remaining in Protestantism.
in our modern world, when someone takes a stand or stand for something, we copycat them and also take stand. in the old days, no one stood up for Jesus and dared say anything about rcc or popes would look at the kings and execute the Christians based on the laws rcc and the kings put together. now a days, we're able to read the bible for ourselves and not be sentenced to death. we take back Jesus with 5 solas and carry on the crossThis thread is dedicated to @Mary Meg
How do you know whether or not you should be a Protestant? Let's take a look at where Protestantism began - with the Five Solas. All Reformational theology flows from these five principles, which are actually five objections to Roman Catholic theology. So take a look at each of these and see how it sits with you. If you agree with these, you are not Roman Catholic and could never be. But if you disagree with them, you're not being biblical! Sorry, had to reveal my bias there.
1. Sola Scriptura - The Bible alone is the word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.
2. Solus Christus - Jesus Christ is the only savior of sinners and his atoning sacrifice is sufficient to save them.
3. Sola Gratia - Our salvation is not earned in any part; it is a free gift of God from start to finish.
4. Sola Fide - We are forgiven our sins and counted righteous in God’s sight solely by trusting in Christ.
5. Soli Deo Gloria - The ultimate end of all God’s works in creation and redemption is his own glory alone.
Don't make me cry by trying to deny any of these wonderful doctrines.
You might be thinking of the Remonstrants and the Five Points of Calvinism. Those are different than the Five Solas. Arminians believe in the Five Solas, generally speaking.
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