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40 Questions

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Jun 21, 2021.

  1. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    @MMXX My teacher had mentioned finding it one of his episodes. I still have not read it but though it poses many great questions for sure, and thought it would be good to share. :)

    For anyone curious please simply click this link ; The Hell Test

    Here is what you will be greeted to as an introduction:

    The Hell Test
    (A test every pastor, Bible teacher and seminary professor should be required to take before being allowed to teach.)

    One would be amazed how little the average pastor knows about the subject of Hell. Most of their knowledge comes from what Jesus called "The traditions of men which make the word of god of no effect." Matt. 15:6-9 Give a copy of this test to those to whom you have submitted yourself. See whether they know their subject. If salvation is indeed deliverance from a Hell of everlasting punishment, then the answers to these questions are vital to your well being.

    Is Salvation A Deliverance
    From Hell or Eternal Death?

    By Gary Amirault
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, when Satan ends up in heaven, where will you go?
     
  3. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, already Satan was in Heaven, and he got himself thrown out. So, it is likely if he got there again, he would do the same things and again be thrown out.

    But . . . hypothetically . . . what if I were to die and discover that Satan was on the throne and he was going to be my judge?

    Well, it would depend on how he is, versus how I have become. The one I mean by Satan is the one who has made me cruelly stupid . . . a gratuitous perpetual bully while I was younger, then I switched to being a conceited church hypocrite who pretty much looked down on everyone else, and only criticized wrong people but I did not love them and have hope in prayer for them. So, if the Satan who made me like that were to turn out to be on heaven's throne . . . I would likely be condemned by the him who used to make me a bully and church hypocrite. And . . . going by the way I am now, I might just be quiet and see what God does with me.

    By God I mean the One who has changed me to being more quiet and caring, never knowingly doing anything to hurt anyone. And He easily has kept me from being effected and controlled by nasty and abusive and entitled anger, and unforgiveness, and immoral feelings and desires, and bitterness and arguing and complaining, and blaming others instead of dealing with my own need for correction. So, the One I mean by God is so superior to the one I mean by Satan.

    But I am notified and warned that I need more real correction, by God, so I am really kind and caring with every person, and have hope for any wrong person to be changed to find out how to love. So, if Satan were to be on heaven's throne, he would not be able to stand me; so I would not make it to stay with him, and I would discover what would become of me, of course.

    But, like I say, no matter how Satan judging me exerted his hatred against me, God's grace is stronger than Satan's effects of cruel anger and degrading desperation for foolish pleasure, and God in His grace is almighty to protect us from worry which is so abusive and a pathological liar > instead, Jesus gives us "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30). I have experienced how God almighty easily has gotten rid of that cruel and dishonest anti-love stuff from me, or just kept it away. And His love is kind and pleasant and soul-resting and caring with His creativity for how to love any person, at all. Plus, I have people who are examples of this, to help me.

    But the Satan I am talking about isolates people, by making people unable to relate lovingly with various other people. And Jesus warns, for anyone who tries to pick and choose who is worth loving . . . who a person wants to just use >

    "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

    So . . . it seems I would not pass Satan's judgment. And already in this evil world I find that God has taken good care of me, mentally and emotionally and socially . . . so better than I did while in Satan's kingdom of worry and fear and self-righteous judging and conceit and unforgiveness and immoral stuff and self-exalting ambition, and loving only people I hoped to use and possess. So, already I have been exposed to Satan's cruel stuff, in this world, but God has kept me; so even if Satan were to hatefully treat me in heaven, God has already proven Himself with me . . . here on earth. So, I would say it would be the same even if I appeared before Satan to judge me. God is certainly better and able.

    Even now > God's word says >

    "You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies" (in Psalm 23:5).

    Right now, then, we can have all which our Father prepares for us, of His own table before us. So, even right in the presence of the enemy Satan, we can have all the good which our Father has for us! So, even while Satan were on the throne of judgment, yes we could fully enjoy all God pleases to share with us, and of course He could fully enjoy how He has changed us to become like His Son Jesus, as is our destiny in Christ > Romans 8:29.

    Satan can not change what really is going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  4. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Sorry, incomplete summary. In Luke 14:15, the original guests mostly refuse. The host then goes out and gets larger and larger numbers. That's the end. In Mat 22:1, we have the same, but the larger number is said to include good and bad (unlike Luke). It ends when one is found without a wedding robe and thrown into hell.

    There is surely a difference in tone. Again, my assumption is that Luke is describing the success of the Gentile ministry, where Matthew is concerned about his own congregation maintaining faithfulness, and thus wants to make sure to emphasize accountability for the new people. But in terms of the impression it gives about salvation, Luke is surely more optimistic.
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    ...
    Just to be clear...
    I wasn't suggesting that Satan would be on the throne. But that he would be restored with the rest of creation. Perhaps the last to be redeemed. God loves a good story and a happy ending. Mercy triumphs over evil.

    It's the devil in us that wants revenge for justice. IMHO

    Saint Steven said:
    So, when Satan ends up in heaven, where will you go?
     
  6. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course it is right to expect God to be just.

    And we can see in the United States Constitution and in the Law of Moses, how it is right to fit the punishment to the crime; so it is reasonable for us to expect that God's meted out punishments will be right and proportionate to people's sins.

    And eternity burning in hell certainly does not seem like what would be fair for someone who has committed thousands of lies and actions of selfish pleasure, but the person has not directly killed or injured anyone, for example.

    But I have learned that hell is not only for punishment. Fire is not only for tormenting people.

    Hell is for containing the spirit of evil > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2.

    We have already seen what Satan's evil spirit is capable of. And Satan is capable of much worse. Look at how his people treated Jesus who is God's own Son. You are not going to have such people staying with Jesus in Heaven, I offer. And in the gospels and our present lives we have plenty of proof of why. You can not reason with such people; they might do only some minor sins, but there is their capability that God knows about.

    Those were religious socially accepted mothers and fathers who were cursing their own children with the shed blood of Jesus >

    "His blood be on us and on our children," they said > this quote is in Matthew 27:25.

    These were people bringing up children, in Jewish culture; yet, they had their true character making them ready to do that against Jesus who is God's own Son. Satan's spirit might keep humans busy with a few foolish pleasures and with possessions, but if you somehow threaten a person's treasure pleasure, then you might find out how that person can behave differently . . . even like a raging lunatic if that pleasure or possession really is a treasure for the person, instead of God being their number-one treasure.

    Satanic people felt threatened by Jesus; so they acted accordingly. They are that stupid and that stubborn. Only fire can manage such stupidly stubborn beings . . . especially if they no longer have physical pleasures to keep them busy.

    But Hebrews 12:29 says,

    "For our God is a consuming fire."

    But because of how God changes our character, the "fire" who is God does not burn us. But ones in selfish nature can suffer torment because of their own nature making them suffer in the presence of our "fire" - - kind of like how predators fear a campfire and will hide in the dark while you can share in love's warmth of affection, around that same campfire. By nature Satan's spirit is tormented by even the Spirit of God's own love. So, I see how perhaps Satan was tormented in Heaven, because of his pride nature.

    There were demons who were tormented as soon as they saw Jesus. People were with Jesus Himself . . . and hated Him. He gave them proof, evidence, but they hated and murdered Him. They had the perfect circumstance, of being right in the presence of Jesus; and we see how their character was their dictator. So, seeing Jesus on the throne, being in Heaven's circumstances, is not guaranteed to change an evil, Satanic being.

    This is why people need to trust in Jesus, so God changes our character to be spiritually compatible with Him; and this started now in Jesus is part of what we mean by becoming "born again" > becoming a new being in the character of Jesus growing in us, and God's fire doing us good, then, because our character in Jesus benefits from fire . . . like chicken becoming tasty and nice smelling, versus sewage and rubber burning with a great stench . . . in the exact same fire!

    So, there is no escaping fire, for anyone. But >

    It's what you make it,
    how you take it . . .
    just don't you fake it!

    If you are in God's love, you are in fire which can burn Satanic stuff away from you. And the fire won't hurt you, but it will change your character to be more like God's all-loving gentle and kind love.

    But we see how evil is the opposite of this, and many are in desperation for pleasure to try to make themselves feel something nicer than what their selfishness-infected nature makes them able to experience emotionally and mentally.

    So, fire is not the real problem of hell, I offer.
     
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is clear.

    But, like I have offered, there is the spirit of evil which by nature is incapable of good, plus is tormented by God's good Spirit and love . . . like trash in a fire, or rubber burning.

    And Satan is a vessel for keeping this spirit organized. As long as the spirit of evil exists, it will be organized so it does not go anywhere and everywhere.

    And, by the way, you have not given scripture which clearly spells out what you are saying.

    I have offered scripture with my explanations. And I have offered how I have made connections. What's your scripture, what are your connections which are with scripture, if any?
     
  8. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    Satan is done away with there is no more law to law to be accused by. Satan was defeated and Him and his demons, tossed into the lake of fire. In accordance to what the Bible says.

    Romans 10:4; revelation 20:13
     
  9. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you know how Holy God is, and the extent of the offence that sin is to God, then your questions are answered.
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    One and the same, so both.
     
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Almost. . .what about "not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet" (Luke 14:24)?
    So you find a basic difference between "throw him outside. . .for many are invited, but few are chosen" -- congregation (Matthew 22:13-14)
    and "not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet" -- Gentiles (Luke 14:24)?

    I guess I'm not seeing much difference between "not one will get a taste of my banquet," (Luke)
    and "many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
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  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    And you know this, how?

    Let's not try to "humanize" God.
    Let's just try to "divinize" men through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.; i.e., salvation from condemnation (John 3:18) and
    God's wrath on unbelief (John 3:36) the destiny of which is fire that is not quenched (Mark 9:48).
    So Satan is going to have saving faith in Jesus Christ, is going to trust Jesus' atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) for the remission of his sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty, righteous, sanctified?

    So is the devil in us what also makes us believe in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin?
    Anyone ever suggest to you that your concept of Satan is a tad off?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did we ask to be born into sin and death? Who created this situation? And somehow God takes offense that we are just as he created and planned for us to be? What's up with that?

    Does God have an anger management problem? We have human psychiatrists that could help. Maybe some medication? Why do we paint a picture of God that resembles an angry volcano god?
     
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Perhaps God's wrath in Romans 1:18, Romans 5:9; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:3, Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6;
    1Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:16 has something to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  15. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes. In Luke, it's the original invitees for which many are thrown out. I think it's pretty clear that this Jesus' contemporaries who rejected him. There's no sign of limitation to the many who are brought in later.

    In Matthew, "many are called and few are chosen" applies to the multitude called later.

    I am not claiming that Luke taught universalism, so the passages aren't directly contradictory. But it's definitely a different picture.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I see what you are talking about. . .thanks.
     
  17. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    Gods wrath was towards the children of Israel, that did not listen, who killed the Son of God.

    Remember what Jesus Christ talked about in the parable of the man who loaned our his vineyard to a bunch of men and the Man sent out people to collect the rent and the people farming killed the prophets basically that were sent. Then the man who loaned out the land sent his own son and they killed him so they would have all the land to themselves.

    What the conclusion of that story ? I have to go find out myself.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    And toward all who reject the Son of God (John 3:36).
     
  19. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    That would be to the nation of Israel (at that time upon the return of the Lord)

    If you wanna know where people truly end up please read Revelation 22.

    Hell is over and done with, cast into the lake of fire along with death, and along with Satan and His Demons.

    There is life with God or Life without God now.

    Many people get scared into believing because of fear of hell not because of respect and reverence towards God @Clare73

    Most people however believe the contrary and that Satan is still around and people going to hell.

    It’s freeing to know the truth, I must admit but thank God for those who persisted to find out the truth of these matters but however there will always be forever opposition.
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    As well as those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:15); i.e., those who are "outside" the city (Revelation 22:15).
    IF they are truly believing in and trusting on the person and atonement (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," righteous, sanctified, it is only by the Holy Spirit who will grow them in their faith.
     
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