40 Questions

[Navair2]

Those verses that you have referenced, say nothing of the sort.

Yes, they do.

 

[Saint Steven]

" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 ).

The question is: what kind of life is being referred to? This life, or the afterlife?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Navair2]

Did we ask to be born into sin and death?

No, it's just a fact of our existence.

Who created this situation?

Ultimately?
We did by messing up God's good creation with our sin.

And somehow God takes offense that we are just as he created and planned for us to be?

To me, you're overlooking a lot of the details that place the blame on God's creation being corrupted, squarely on His allowing men and angels the free will to either obey Him or disobey Him.
We messed it up, not Him....or don't you see that for yourself when you read Genesis chapters 1-3?

Just because He knew that we would completely foul the waters, does not mean that He sponsored it.
We are completely responsible for our actions, given what we know about Him

That's why I thank the Lord that despite my disobedience, He decided to have mercy on me.

Does God have an anger management problem?

Steven,
Don't drag Him down to our level, and attempt to rationalize what He does as being within the realm of our understanding.
His ways are far above ours, and His purposes are not up for review by us as His creation.

If you don't mind me asking,
How is it that you don't know this?

We have human psychiatrists that could help.

Your apparent total lack of fear towards God amazes me, sir...
Knowing what I know of the "sciences" of psychiatry and psychology, are you attempting to say that God, who made us, should avail Himself of our corrupted methods with which to treat His "problems"?

Whoa...

 

[Navair2]

Maybe some medication?

Seriously?
Again, why should the Lord who made us, knows our every intricate detail and how we "tick", stoop to using that which He created in order to salve our opinions of Him?
It seems to me that I'm seeing Romans 1:18-32 on full display here.

You're a Christian....right?

Why do we paint a picture of God that resembles an angry volcano god?

The question I would have is,
considering what he says about Himself across the greater bulk of the Scriptures, why would we think that He's an ultimately warm and loving gray-haired being who non-chalantly winks at our continuous disobedience and blasphemies,
and only sends those who "really, really hate Him and are guilty of extreme depths of wickedness", to a place other than Heaven?

Why do we paint a picture of God who is not willing to show wrath and to make His power known ( Romans 1:18, Romans 9:22, Revelation 14:9-11, Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5, Romans 9:13 and many others ), when we know full-well what His wrath looks like ( Revelation, the entire book )?

Something tells me you've not studied or ( for that matter ) believed His words very much, my friend.

 

[Navair2]

The question is: what kind of life is being referred to? This life, or the afterlife?

You mean you don't know?

You've believed on Christ during the preaching of His word, haven't you?
Then study what He's given you to study, and believe it, Steven.

There's a lot that He has to tell us in there...
...and most of it isn't that "warm and fuzzy stuff" that we all learned in "Sunday School".

It's the truth that we weren't shown by most of today's preachers who like to tickle ears and tell us that "God loves everyone, and has a wonderful plan for your life".

You know...Sodom and Gomorrah?
Jericho and the other cities during the taking of Israel under Joshua?
The real reason behind the Flood?
The real reason that God created Hell, and then enlarged it to include us, and not just the fallen angels?

You know, God's hatred of sinners ( Psalms 5:4-6, Psalms 11:5-6 ), not just their sins?


That "all-loving God" we were told about when we were kids is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
We're talking about the God who killed every first-born in Egypt and plagued them for nothing "more" than making slaves of His people Israel.

You may wish to pay particular attention to that "Old Testament" that we were told "wasn't important", my friend...
It describes a holy God.
He is not one who overlooks the slightest infraction without bringing eternal justice to bear on it.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, it's just a fact of our existence.
Ultimately?
We did by messing up God's good creation with our sin.

So, what was the plan? Did the omniscient God somehow not see this coming? Did we paint him into a corner with our actions? Thus tying his hands. Get real.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Did we ask to be born into sin and death?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Who created this situation?

 

[Saint Steven]

To me, you're overlooking a lot of the details that place the blame on God's creation being corrupted, squarely on His allowing men and angels the free will to either obey Him or disobey Him.
We messed it up, not Him....or don't you see that for yourself when you read Genesis chapters 1-3?

Just because He knew that we would completely foul the waters, does not mean that He sponsored it.
We are completely responsible for our actions, given what we know about Him

That's why I thank the Lord that despite my disobedience, He decided to have mercy on me.

Is the sovereign God not in charge and responsible for his creation?

This is the typical blame the victim garbage I read all the time.

If what you are claiming is true, it was a setup. We were set up to fail. Is that what God is about? (nope)

Saint Steven said: ↑
And somehow God takes offense that we are just as he created and planned for us to be?

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven,
Don't drag Him down to our level, and attempt to rationalize what He does as being within the realm of our understanding.
His ways are far above ours, and His purposes are not up for review by us as His creation.

How is it that you don't know this?
Your apparent total lack of fear towards God amazes me, sir...
Knowing what I know of the "sciences" of psychiatry and psychology, are you attempting to say that God, who made us, should avail Himself of our corrupted methods with which to treat His "problems"?

Yes, I've heard that before as well.
God means well when he incinerates the majority of creation. "His ways are above our ways..." Seriously? When humans do that we call them monsters. How is that above our ways?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does God have an anger management problem?

Saint Steven said: ↑
We have human psychiatrists that could help.

 

[Saint Steven]

You're a Christian....right?

What does my sidebar say? I forgot. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Something tells me you've not studied or ( for that matter ) believed His words very much, my friend.

I'm a recovering Evangelical. I'm fed up with the lies.
Plenty of study, thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

The question I would have is,
considering what he says about Himself across the greater bulk of the Scriptures, why would we think that He's an ultimately warm and loving gray-haired being who non-chalantly winks at our continuous disobedience and blasphemies,
and only sends those who "really, really hate Him and are guilty of extreme depths of wickedness", to a place other than Heaven?

Now you swing to another extreme. (a caricature) Why do you think we are saying that?
You don't really understand what Ultimate Redemption (UR) is about.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Why do we paint a picture of God that resembles an angry volcano god?

 

[Saint Steven]

You mean you don't know?

You've believed on Christ during the preaching of His word, haven't you?
Then study what He's given you to study, and believe it, Steven.

So, you actually believe that the majority are predestined to eternal conscious torment? (with no hope of escape) That's quite a horrible plan you are blaming God for. Sounds like the angry volcano god discussed earlier. Is that really how you view our loving heavenly Father? Yikes! Seems slanderous to me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The question is: what kind of life is being referred to? This life, or the afterlife?

 

[Saint Steven]

It's the truth that we weren't shown by most of today's preachers who like to tickle ears and tell us that "God loves everyone, and has a wonderful plan for your life".

Wow. That's nearly a direct quote from Bill Bright's Four Spiritual Laws tract. A virtual pillar of Evangelical thought.

 

[Navair2]

So, what was the plan? Did the omniscient God somehow not see this coming? Did we paint him into a corner with our actions? Thus tying his hands. Get real.

Read His book.
He tells us His plan.

What does my sidebar say? I forgot. - lol

I hadn't noticed, as I'm only concerned with the nature of the questions you're posing, and the attitude of the replies you're making.

"You're a Christian, right?"

I'm still going to ask that question as long as I see that you don't have any apparent fear of the Lord and a healthy respect for His holiness, His power and His willingness to use it...
and most of all, a clear and concise picture of what it is that Jesus saves us from:

God's eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire.

I'm a recovering Evangelical. I'm fed up with the lies.
Plenty of study, thanks.

I don't think you're seeing what needs to be seen, Steven.
Perhaps more study, or more belief of the words on the page, would help, my friend.

In other words,
I pray that he shows to you the sobering things that he has shown to me.

 

[Navair2]

So, you actually believe that the majority are predestined to eternal conscious torment? (with no hope of escape) That's quite a horrible plan you are blaming God for. Sounds like the angry volcano god discussed earlier. Is that really how you view our loving heavenly Father? Yikes! Seems slanderous to me.

You don't believe the Bible?
I do.
Unequivocally and with no reservations.

Every living word of it.
Can you say the same?

I hope so.

 

[Saint Steven]

Read His book.
He tells us His plan.

How's this for a plan? Scripture below.
(you will most likely tell me that it doesn't mean what it plainly says)
Let's discuss. (if you like)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, what was the plan? Did the omniscient God somehow not see this coming? Did we paint him into a corner with our actions? Thus tying his hands. Get real.

 

[Navair2]

How's this for a plan? Scripture below.
(you will most likely tell me that it doesn't mean what it plainly says)
Let's discuss. (if you like)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 5:12-21 ).

When you read this,
Who is it that you think are the many that are made righteous, and what is it that makes them righteous?

 

[Saint Steven]

I hadn't noticed, as I'm only concerned with the nature of the questions you're posing, and the attitude of the replies you're making.

"You're a Christian, right?"

I'm still going to ask that question as long as I see that you don't have any apparent fear of the Lord and a healthy respect for His power and willingness to use it...
and most of all, a clear and concise picture of what it is that Jesus saves us from.

God's eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire.

That's the party line. I don't buy it anymore. Does being a Christian mean buying the party line? Jesus didn't buy the party line. He rejected it.

You'll probably say, "But you're not Jesus!" - lol

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to apologize to God for having such a high regard for his character. Not sure where that leaves the rest of you.

 

[Navair2]

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to apologize to God for having such a high regard for his character. Not sure where that leaves the rest of you.

Steven,
With all due respect and from where I'm sitting, to me you don't have a very high regard for His character, nor do you have much regard for what He has delivered you from, as a believer in Jesus Christ.

That said, if you're so inclined, I've edited my post above.
Would you please answer my questions?

 

[Saint Steven]

You don't believe the Bible?
I do.
Unequivocally and with no reservations.

Every living word of it.
Can you say the same?

I hope so.

Is that a claim to translation inerrancy?
What do you mean by "Every living word of it"?

You understand that the OT was an oral tradition based on many sources, right?
And that there is no archaeologically verified history until the time of the judges. ???

Read: The Bible Tells Me So... by Peter Enns