3 1/2 years...

[Douggg]

In Rev.17, both Rev.13 ideas of a beast kingdom, and a beast king, are being described. Some have difficulty distinguishing the difference. In all the old beast kingdoms of OT history, they each had a beast king over them, which the Book of Daniel covers those too, especially the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar.

The beast coming out of the sea in Revelation 13 supports the idea of being both a the kingdom of the beast and the beast the king.

In Revelation 17, I am not seeing the beast as a kingdom. Instead what I read is the ten kings (the ten horns) give their kingdom to the beast - which those ten kings in text of Daniel 7 below come out of the fourth empire.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[Douggg]

A 5th beast kingdom is suggested in Daniel 2, the final beast of feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. That was not the Roman empire. The Roman empire was the legs of iron. The ten toes beast is to be manifest at the end of this world when Jesus returns to smite it upon its feet, as shown in Daniel 2. That is what the 7th beast king will reign over at the end.

Says fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 in the text. Does not say fifth kingdom in the text of Daniel 2.

Parts of the EU are strong, other parts weak. The parts don't mixed well because of the cultural differences.

 

[Douggg]

Not really true. Read the very last verse

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The angel told John what the woman represented.

 

[Douggg]

n Rev.12:3-4, John sees the dragon in association with a 7 crown beast system, which is not the one of Rev.13:1, since the one in Rev.13 has 10 crowns instead of 7. Surely you can count.

I am told. I personally did not see anything to count them. There is no such thing as a beast "system".

There is the beast as a kingdom in Revelation 13. And as a man, a king. But not as a "system".

It is ten crowns on the ten horns in Revelation 13. The seven heads do not have crowns.

Revelation 17
7 heads - no crowns
10 horns - no crowns

Revelation 12
7 heads - crowns
10 horns - no crowns

Revelation 13
7 heads - no crowns
10 horns - crowns

 

[Davy]

The beast coming out of the sea in Revelation 13 supports the idea of being both a the kingdom of the beast and the beast the king.

In reality the 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is about a beast kingdom, defined by our Lord in Rev.17:15 as "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." That is what has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. The beast king doesn't have ten horns, seven heads, nor ten crowns, but he will usurp the power over all those. Rev.13:2 reveals this layout also, pointing back to Daniel 7 involving the beast kingdoms.

In Revelation 17, I am not seeing the beast as a kingdom. Instead what I read is the ten kings (the ten horns) give their kingdom to the beast - which those ten kings in text of Daniel 7 below come out of the fourth empire.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

When Rev.17 speaks of the ten horns, or seven heads, or ten crowns, it is speaking of the kingdom beast (Rev.17:3; 17:7; 17:9; 17:12; 17:15). A pointing to the ten kings is with Jesus telling us what the ten horns represent. Can't just dump that being part of the beast kingdom just because He reveals the ten horns = ten kings. And since when is the idea of a king not involving a kingdom?

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

And that's the blueprint of the final 5th kingdom of the feet of ten toes given in Daniel 2, which is also the Rev.17 layout of ten kings with a beast king they give their power to for one hour (i.e., tribulation time at the end). The inferred Rev.17 beast they give their power to is the "little horn" of Daniel that comes up among the 10 kings.

 

[Douggg]

And your idea about the beast being already dead is really an idea way... out in left field. It has no Biblical alignment, since we are told the beast that was and is not, "and yet is".

Revelation 17:8 is made up of two parts. 17:8a is the ancient person, dead and in the bottomless pit even at the time of John. 17:8b separated by the colon in the text (KJV), is the end times person who will be killed (was), dead (is not), yet is (come back alive) that people will witness take place and will be amazed.

 

[Davy]

Says fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 in the text. Does not say fifth kingdom in the text of Daniel 2.

Parts of the EU are strong, other parts weak. The parts don't mixed well because of the cultural differences.

Yeah, Dan.7 is talking about a 4th beast. That does not change what Dan.2 declares for the end though, as it serves as a type of mystery for most. Study Daniel 2 in-depth about the different sections of the beast statue, and notice the reference to Jesus' return to smite it upon its feet, and then the whole beast statue comes tumbling down. And then Christ's eternal Kingdom is setup, which reveals the time of His second coming.

Ask yourself, how can the whole beast statue, all the pieces 'together', come tumbling down when Jesus smites it upon its feet of ten toes? It reveals all the beast pieces of the statue joined together for the end, being held up by the feet of ten toes which represents the final beast kingdom that will exist when Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Again, Satan is not the scarlet beast.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Yes, the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 is Satan. Who Satan represents is another matter.

 

[Davy]

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The angel told John what the woman represented.

Yes, and John was told the symbolic "woman" of Rev.17 represents a "great city". That's not the beast king, nor the beast kingdom. But that city will definitely be involved with both beasts.

 

[Davy]

....


Revelation 17
7 heads - no crowns
10 horns - no crowns

Revelation 12
7 heads - crowns
10 horns - no crowns

Revelation 13
7 heads - no crowns
10 horns - crowns

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The first part of Rev.12:4 sets the timing of that beast system of 10 horns, 7 heads, and 7 crowns. That was a beast kingdom back at Satan's original rebellion, for that was when he first drew a third of the angels to earth. Proof that drawing has nothing to with the casting out of the later Rev.12:7-9 verses is how this one it is Satan (red dragon) that draws those angels to earth with him, whereas the casting out of Rev.12:7 forward is by Archangel Michael when the war in Heaven happens. Our Lord Jesus actually made this distinction between the two times of these beast kingdoms (Rev.12:3 and Rev.13:1) very easy to understand. Yet if one is not given to spiritually discern it, then no amount of Biblical evidence is going to reveal it.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 17:8 is made up of two parts. 17:8a is the ancient person, dead and in the bottomless pit even at the time of John. 17:8b separated by the colon in the text (KJV), is the end times person who will be killed (was), dead (is not), yet is (come back alive) that people will witness take place and will be amazed.

Once again, the idea that it's speaking of one who is 'dead' is a made-up tradition of men that have no discernment of what the Scripture is about.

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

That beast is not the kingdom beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. That is about the beast king. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a dead king of past history to be resurrected from the dead to be the final beast king at the end of this world. Those who made up that fib show they don't understand nor believe in the future resurrection to come of the wicked dead.

There is only ONE (and his angels) that is already judged and sentenced to perdition into the future "lake of fire". It is Satan himself:

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:'
KJV


Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV

And boy, will I be glad to see him perish forever. Gone.

Can we say that about any flesh born man? NO! It's because no flesh born man has been judged to perish yet today. So if you believe anyone other than Satan and his angels have already been judged to perish today, then you do not believe in The God of The Bible that I do.

 

[Davy]

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Yes, the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 is Satan. Who Satan represents is another matter.

You're just wanting to argue now, and have cut off understanding of the Scripture.

Rev 17:3-4
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
KJV

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

It's about Jerusalem for the very end of this world, fallen into false worship.

If your Jewish, I can understand how that may be somewhat upsetting to you; especially since many Jews today wrongly think God has or is restoring their kingdom of old. To be a believer on Christ Jesus for the end, that idea must be understood as deception, and instead be willing to wait on Jesus' return to establish His Kingdom. The closer it gets to the end, the stronger the orthodox unbelieving Jews will want the world to support their kingdom version.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

That beast is not the kingdom beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. That is about the beast king. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a dead king of past history to be resurrected from the dead to be the final beast king at the end of this world. Those who made up that fib show they don't understand nor believe in the future resurrection to come of the wicked dead.

It is impossible for anyone to come back from being dead - except by God making it happen.

The beast now in the bottomless pit is a disembodied spirit. That spirit is not going to be resurrected, but will come out of the bottomless pit in spirit form- a demon. The bible uses the term unclean spirit for demons in the gospels, that were cast out of people they possessed.

Separately - the end times person who that unclean spirit (the beast) will eventually possess, himself will be killed - the mortally wounded head on the beast in Revelation 13 - which recovers, i.e. comes back alive.... was, and is not, and yet is.

In Isaiah 14:18-19, the end times person comes back to life, "cast of out the grave" figuratively, because God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, not letting him reside there in the place of the dead.

When the person comes back to life, the unclean spirit - now in the bottomless pit - will be allowed to come out and possess him.

Isaiah 14:
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

_________________________________________________________

Revelation 17:8a - the beast now in the bottomless pit, as a disembodied spirit - imo, was/is Nimrod.

Revelation 17:8b - the end times person who will be killed and comes back to life after a short time, maybe a day or two, is whoever the little horn person is. The seventh king of Roman Empire, of the Caesar family. He is also a Jew.

 

[Douggg]

You're just wanting to argue now, and have cut off understanding of the Scripture.

Rev 17:3-4
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
KJV

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

It's about Jerusalem for the very end of this world, fallen into false worship.

If your Jewish, I can understand how that may be somewhat upsetting to you; especially since many Jews today wrongly think God has or is restoring their kingdom of old. To be a believer on Christ Jesus for the end, that idea must be understood as deception, and instead be willing to wait on Jesus' return to establish His Kingdom. The closer it gets to the end, the stronger the orthodox unbelieving Jews will want the world to support their kingdom version.

Davy, you keep wanting to condemn the Jews and Jerusalem. To the contrary, the Jews will be brought to Christ during the great tribulation. And Jesus will return to rescue them, and fight for Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, and John was told the symbolic "woman" of Rev.17 represents a "great city". That's not the beast king, nor the beast kingdom. But that city will definitely be involved with both beasts.

It's not the same woman.

 

[Davy]

Davy, you keep wanting to condemn the Jews and Jerusalem. To the contrary, the Jews will be brought to Christ during the great tribulation. And Jesus will return to rescue them, and fight for Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14.

You shouldn't make such rash statements; I am not, nor have ever, condemned Jews. You have just accused me of racism, and it is unwarranted. And you did it with trying to use racism as political lever. God rebuke you.

 

[keras]

the Jews will be brought to Christ during the great tribulation. And Jesus will return to rescue them, and fight for Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14.

This idea is absolute error.
It is the 'rapture to heaven' believers false idea, made to support their fanciful notion of sitting in heaven while the Jews face tribulation on earth. No scripture supports any of it.

Bible prophecy is quite plain; there is coming soon, a terrible devastation by fire that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. Read and understand Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-6, Amos 1:1-15, +
The State of Israel will be no more and only a remnant will survive to join with their Christian brethren in all of the holy Land. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 6:11-13,

Romans 9:27​

 

[iamlamad]

This idea is absolute error.
It is the 'rapture to heaven' believers false idea, made to support their fanciful notion of sitting in heaven while the Jews face tribulation on earth. No scripture supports any of it.

Bible prophecy is quite plain; there is coming soon, a terrible devastation by fire that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. Read and understand Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-6, Amos 1:1-15, +
The State of Israel will be no more and only a remnant will survive to join with their Christian brethren in all of the holy Land. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 6:11-13,

Romans 9:27​

You can stay behind on earth if you wish. It seems this is what you have chosen. But the Bride of Christ will be escorted into heaven to enjoy the 70th week in a place of safety.

 

[iamlamad]

It's not the same woman.

Of course IN CONTEXT it is the same woman first seen riding a beast. And he is right, it is a CITY. Believe it, for it is truth. It is Jerusalem.

 

[iamlamad]

Davy, you keep wanting to condemn the Jews and Jerusalem. To the contrary, the Jews will be brought to Christ during the great tribulation. And Jesus will return to rescue them, and fight for Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14.

I agree.