2Thessalonians2:7 explained

[Douggg]

When I feel someone may glare at me in Heaven and accuse me of not having shared what I know, then I look for something to share. Debates such as these in this thread are not uplifting or even reassuring to those who are not strong in faith so the following is intended to help those who are struggling. I am not available to comment further.

“As you sit in your seat each Sunday, regardless of the sign on the church door, you’re joined by folks from Thyatira. They’re the ones who add to the Gospel: Jesus plus someone or something else, grace plus works, scripture plus tradition. There are also some from Sardis. They subtract from the Gospel. “You don’t need to be born again, just join the church, give some time and money, you’ll be fine.” And then there’s the group from Laodicea. “Jesus was a great man and teacher, and lived a life of such gentleness and grace that it’s ALMOST as if he was God. Just love everybody like he did. The good life you live is an obvious sign of your favor with God, and everyone knows there’s no real heaven, I mean come on.”

"But if you know you’re a sinner and have given your heart to Jesus because He gave His life for you, then you’re from Philadelphia. There may be some others there with you, but you’ll never really know for sure how many till you all vanish together some day soon. And don’t be surprised when you’re joined by some who’re Catholic, some who’re Protestant, some conservatives, some liberals, and even some who didn’t appear to attend any church at all. After all it’s not what you say you are, but what you believe in your heart that matters.”

Excerpt From: Kelley, Jack. “Understanding Revelation - Jack Kelley.” iBooks.

I don't think that there is any disagreement from the posters here that the rapture will take place. The opposing views are over when. Some are saying the rapture can't happen until Jesus returns. Others are saying before Jesus returns.

This is the eschatology forum. When a person enters this forum to read and/or post, they are jumping into advanced discussions regarding the end times. There is a lot of uplifting information in this forum being put forth - and there is some depressing information being put forth. What is depressing to me is the notion that some express the church, the body of Christ, will have to go through the great tribulation - although it is not mentioned in text of Revelation as doing so.

 

[Riberra]

What is depressing to me is the notion that some express the church, the body of Christ, will have to go through the great tribulation - although it is not mentioned in text of Revelation as doing so.

There is no mention of a rapture out of the Earth to Heaven for the believers before the Tribulation in the whole Revelation text.Some believe that because there is no mention of the Church after Revelation chapter 4 that means that the church will be raptured.The rapture is nothing more than our caught up and gathering in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air (no trip to heaven) UNTO Jesus Coming which Paul warn us will not happen until -AFTER- the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What will be depressing is when the real stuff begin ...and those who have placed all their hope in a rapture to Heaven realise that they are still here on the earth spiritually totally unprepared.The wise virgins know that the return will be late that is why they buyed extra oil to keep their light on.

 

[Douggg]

There is no mention of a rapture out of the Earth to Heaven for the believers before the Tribulation in the whole Revelation text

John represented the church being caught up and observed things from heaven of things that take place on the earth.

The rapture is nothing more than our caught up and gathering in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air (no trip to heaven) UNTO Jesus Coming which Paul warn us will not happen until -AFTER- the man of sin is revealed.

Paul is assuring just the opposite. Paul is not saying to the thessalonians that the church would have to wait for the revealing of the man of sin before the rapture takes place. The basis for Paul even saying what he did is that the church is not appointed unto (the time of) wrath.

In 1thessalonians5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul is referring back to what Jesus said in Luke 21.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Riberra]

John represented the church being caught up and observed things from heaven of things that take place on the earth.

John have the mission to write everything that he will saw ...The whole thing was a vision of things which were going to happen. The first things to happen mentionned in the first four chapters concerned the 7 Churches in existence in the time of the apostles 2,000 years ago ....

Paul is assuring just the opposite. Paul is not saying to the thessalonians that the church would have to wait for the revealing of the man of sin before the rapture takes place. The basis for Paul even saying what he did is that the church is not appointed unto (the time of) wrath.

In 1thessalonians5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul is referring back to what Jesus said in Luke 21.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Both of these verses be it by Paul or Luke are about the same Day of the Lord that Paul mention in 2 Thessalonians 2 ie the Day of the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto him which Paul say will happen AFTER the Man of sin is revealed ... And Jesus said will happen after the tribulation...Matthew 24:29-31... Luke message means only that we will better pray and keep watching to be on the good side of the fence when Jesus will come...to destroy the wicked unrepentant sinners .

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall NOT COME, EXCEPT there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Riberra]

Double post.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Douggg]

Both of these verses be it by Paul or Luke are about the same Day of the Lord that Paul mention in 2 Thessalonians 2 ie the Day of the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto him which Paul say will happen AFTER the Man of sin is revealed ...

And where are you reading that (in blue) in Luke 21 verses and the 1thessalonians5 verses?

You are misunderstanding what Paul said in 2Thessalonians2.

Paul is indicating in 1thessalonians5 the world will be saying peace and safety (because the person has been received by the Jews as their messiah). Then Paul says to be sober and be watching, the same thing that Jesus said in Luke 21, and praying to be worthy to escape the Day of the Lord.

The escape (on some unknown day and hour) is before the person is revealed to be the man of sin, according to the act, the transgression of desolation, he commits. Then sudden destruction comes upon the Jews, and the rest of the world, including them who will have fallen away from Christianity, for having embraced him, only to find out that he is not the messiah at all.

 

[Riberra]

And where are you reading that (in blue) in Luke 21 verses and the 1thessalonians5 verses?

You are misunderstanding what Paul said in 2thessalonian2.

Paul is indicating in 1thessalonians5 the world will be saying peace and safety (because the person has been received by the Jews as their messiah). Then Paul says to be sober and be watching, the same thing that Jesus said in Luke 21, and praying to be worthy to escape the Day of the Lord.

The escape is before the person is revealed to be the man of sin, according to the act, the transgression of desolation, he commits. Then sudden destruction comes upon the Jews, and the rest of the world, including them who will have fallen away from Christianity, for having embraced him, only to find out that he is not the messiah at all.

You surely know that Paul have written 2 Thessalonians 2 for clarification...because many have been wrongly leaded to believe by false teachers that the day of our gathering unto Jesus will come before that the man of sin is revealed ...With the clarification of 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul was totally destroying the notion of imminent/at hand (which the Thessalonians wrongly believed because of false teachers /preachers) or the "at any time moment" about the coming of Jesus and our gathering unto Him promoted by the modern false teachers of the pre-trib rapturist cult.

 

[Douggg]

You surely know that Paul have written 2 Thessalonians 2 for clarification...because many have been wrongly leaded to believe by false teachers that the day of our gathering unto Jesus will come before that the man of sin is revealed ..

No,the clarificiation was because the Thessalonians were under the impression that the Day of the Lord had already started, and that they somehow missed the rapture, because they understood that the rapture would take place before the Day of the Lord.

Paul was clarifying that the Day of Lord is preceded by the great falling away and the man of sin's act, the transgression of desolation. So since neither of those things had happened, it took the worries away from the Thessalonians that they were in the Day of the Lord timeframe.

Paul was not clarifying any false teachings about the rapture. He was quelling the rumor that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

 

[Riberra]

Paul was not clarifying any false teachings about the rapture. He was quelling the rumor that the Day of the Lord had already begun.

Paul was teaching the Thessalonians that they got the WRONG TIMING about the rapture because of false rumors...

Paul was telling them in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that the rapture will happen unto the coming of Jesus which is the Day of Christ.
Paul made it clear to them that the Day of Christ which is the Day of our our gathering unto Jesus will NOT come until AFTER
the man of sin is revealed...how can you not see what is clearly written ?

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

[Luke17:37]

The ones in Revelation 13 are Christians agreed. But they will have become Christians after the rapture has taken place.

The ones in Revelation 12 are Christians as well, but specificially the Jews who will receive Christ after the man of sin betrays them, after they will have embraced him as their messiah for approximately 3 1/2 years thinking peace and safety, thinking they have entered the messianic age.

I don't disagree that Jesus Himself has ascended to heaven and sits on His Throne there now. The verse has to be looked at in the context of what the church has been taught about it being the body of Christ here on earth in his physical absence. There is no way that any other interpretation fits all three conditions for the "he", except that it be Jesus... and the he taken out of the way is the body of Christ, the church, here on earth.

Since we are talking about 2 Thesssalonians 2, let's look at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Note that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the gathering of the Church to Him is referred to collectively as the day of Christ or that Day. Jesus' coming and the gathering are the same day. The gathering doesn't precede the coming.

Further, this won't happen until after the falling away or apostasy (Greek: apostasia) and the revealing of the man of sin (who sets himself up as God). That happens in the Tribulation.

Daniel 11:36
36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Revelation 13:6
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

Note that Apostasy means:

1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.
   
   Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

In light of this Scripture, how can you believe a pre-tribulation rapture is even possible?

 

[Luke17:37]

The great falling away occurs first before the man of sin is revealed to be such by his going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God.

The great falling away from Christianity will be when Judaism's messiah arrives, the person who becomes the King of Israel, illegitimate, the Antichrist - will be so convincing that many in Christianity will depart Jesus and embrace the person as the messiah as well.

The great falling away will take place during the first half of the seven years. The church may still be here during that time, but there will be the great falling away.

Before the man of sin reveals himself to be such, the rapture will take place. Which could be near the middle third of the seven years - as a guess - if it has not already taken place before then.

When the rapture takes place, imo, there will be many who become Christians, although they missed the rapture.

Scripture says "that Day" (referring back to Christ's coming and our gathering together to Him) won't happen until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.

When it says, "Let no man deceive you," it is saying that the gathering (what you call the rapture) won't occur until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.

This Scripture does NOT say the rapture comes before the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, but it says the opposite.

 

[Luke17:37]

What is depressing to me is the notion that some express the church, the body of Christ, will have to go through the great tribulation - although it is not mentioned in text of Revelation as doing so.

Revelation doesn't use the word Church to refer to the body of believers in the Tribulation, but they are certainly present. If you haven't seen this, it's because you are trying to prove to yourself that you can't be there if the exact term isn't used. A clear reading of Revelation and the rest of Scripture gives no such impression.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7 discusses Christians living (Revelation 7:1-8) and dying (Revelation 7:9-17) in the Tribulation.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:7
7 It was granted to him [the beast of the sea] to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 14:12-13
12 Here is the patience of the saints [in contrast to those who take the mark of the beast]; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Revelation 16:6
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

Revelation 17:6
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 18:4
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Revelation 18:20
20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her [Mystery Babylon]!”

Revelation 18:24
24 And in her [Mystery Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

Revelation 19:2
2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

Paul was teaching the Thessalonians that they got the WRONG TIMING about the rapture because of false rumors...

No, Paul did not say a thing about them having the wrong teaching or understanding of the timing of the rapture. You are making a wrong conclusion - that is not in the text. The false rumors were about the Day of the Lord, which is in verse 2, not in verse 1. Christ is the Lord.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Your wrong conclusion is that verse 1, his coming is the Second Coming. And that the gathering takes place then.

Verse 1 does not say anything about the Day of the Lord, nor His Second Coming, but the about his coming - which his coming to resurrect the believers and translate the living (the living) is in 1thessalonians4:15-16. It does not say Second Coming in that passage, or in verse 1 of 2Thessalonians2. It will be Jesus Himself who comes to resurrect the dead - with a shout, and a trumpet blast to change the living. That's the Lord's coming and gathering in 2thessalonians2:1.

Which this thread explains verse 7, there is only one way that can be correct for the "he" to meet the 3 requirements of that verse.... which is that the body of Christ be taken out of the way.

Here is what it says in 2thessalonians2 about the rumors. It does not mention the gathering, but the Day of the Lord. Paul does not state that their understanding of the timing of the rapture was wrong - but to squash the rumors about the Day of the Lord having already begun or on the very precipice of it (at hand).

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In addition, Paul does not state anywhere that the church or the Thessalonians would have to go through the Day of the Lord. Just the opposite, that the Day of the Lord, dependent on the revealing of the man of sin - is not going to happen until "he", the body of Christ here on earth is taken out of the way. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who can meet all three requirements for the "he".

 

[Douggg]

Note that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the gathering of the Church to Him is referred to collectively as the day of Christ or that Day. Jesus' coming and the gathering are the same day. The gathering doesn't precede the coming.

That is where you are making a wrong conclusion. It doesn't say "that" Day in verse 2, but "that the day of Christ is at hand". Textually, a noun clause beginning with the conjunction "that". http://www.englishgrammar.org/noun-clauses-3/

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

His coming as it pertains to the resurrection/rapture in verse 1 is not the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord). Paul is not saying to the Thessalonians to look forward to the Day of the Lord; they are not happy about the rumors that the Day of the Lord had already begun. Paul is not telling them to look forward to the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.... so that they will be gathered unto the Lord. Jesus, in Luke 21:34-36, is saying to pray to be counted worthy to escape the times of troubles of that timeframe.

Paul is telling them that the Day of the Lord is not coming until Jesus takes the believers out of the way (the escape). And that the Day of the Lord has not already begun or on the edge of it (the rumors) because the two things must happen first.

From an eschatology standpoint for us, this generation, the motivation is that we see the things start to take shape that would lead into the great falling and the revealing of the man of sin - we are to look up for our redemption draws near. Watch and pray, be aware of the times.

Not let's hope that the great falling away and the man of sin be revealed so that we will be raptured after that happens.

 

[Luke17:37]

That is where you are making a wrong conclusion. It doesn't say "that" Day in verse 2, but "that the day of Christ is at hand". Textually, a noun clause beginning with the conjunction "that". http://www.englishgrammar.org/noun-clauses-3/

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

His coming as it pertains to the resurrection/rapture in verse 1 is not the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord). Paul is not saying to the Thessalonians to look forward to the Day of the Lord; they are not happy about the rumors that the Day of the Lord had already begun. Paul is not telling them to look forward to the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.... so that they will be gathered unto the Lord. Jesus, in Luke 21:34-36, is saying to pray to be counted worthy to escape the times of troubles of that timeframe.

Paul is telling them that the Day of the Lord is not coming until Jesus takes the believers out of the way (the escape). And that the Day of the Lord has not already begun or on the edge of it (the rumors) because the two things must happen first.

From an eschatology standpoint for us, this generation, the motivation is that we see the things start to take shape that would lead into the great falling and the revealing of the man of sin - we are to look up for our redemption draws near. Watch and pray, be aware of the times.

Not let's hope that the great falling away and the man of sin be revealed so that we will be raptured after that happens.

So you have decided that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" cannot be His return at the end of the Tribulation, or that verse 1 is completely divorced from verse 2 when they are one complete thought. This doesn't follow from the text. You are inserting an idea that isn't there so you can justify turning the clear teaching of the passage upside down. It is saying there's no gathering (you call this rapture) until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin... no pre-tribulation rapture. This passage doesn't say a thing about an escape for the believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Postvieww]

No way that Michael works. Michael is not the one who lets things happen. Michael carries out orders given to him. Michael has no power in determining the timing of future events. The "he" is verse 7 is the decider.

Michael also has not been letting the mystery of iniquity already at work even back in Paul's time. Michael doesn't have that kind of power.

The war in heaven in Revelation 12:7, takes place after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, corresponding to the 1260 days of the two witnesses - who are killed by the beast. Therefore the man of sin has already revealed himself before the war in heaven takes place. The war in heaven is after the man of sin has been revealed, killed for it, becomes the beast, then kills the two witnesses.

The person who decides that Satan and his angels shall be cast down is the Lord Jesus Christ (Ezekiel 28:16). Not Michael. Michael and his angels will fight the war, but not as the decider to take action.

Dougg said:

No way that Michael works. Michael is not the one who lets things happen.

I am in agreement with you that Jesus has been given all power

Michael carries out orders given to him.

My point exactly.

Michael has no power in determining the timing of future events.

Revelation 20:1-7 I never said he did. My point was always that angels carried out orders given them. The point you are ignoring here is the similarity of the task in 2 Thess. to other tasks in scripture I have pointed out.

The "he" is verse 7 is the decider.

There is absolutely nothing in this text to back this statement because verse 7, doesn’t even address this point.

2 Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. In fact the language of this text backs a point I’ve made over and over. If it is God the Father, The Holy Spirit, or Jesus, who is it that is going to take them out of the way? No one has or will answer that question.

Michael also has not been letting the mystery of iniquity already at work even back in Paul's time.

Agreed. “the mystery of iniquity was working in Paul’s day and continues even to our day. That is not what is held back.

2 Thess. 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is what is held back.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Foucus on the word revealed. Whoever is holding back in this passage is not restraining the mystery of iniquity from working, it is clear from the text he was and still is working, he is being held back or restrained from being REVEALED as the one who sits in the temple showing himself that he is God.

Michael doesn't have that kind of power.

He does have the power to restrain, bind, release or anything else Christ commands him to.

The war in heaven in Revelation 12:7, takes place after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, corresponding to the 1260 days of the two witnesses - who are killed by the beast. Therefore the man of sin has already revealed himself before the war in heaven takes place. The war in heaven is after the man of sin has been revealed, killed for it, becomes the beast, then kills the two witnesses.

My point in raising this scripture had nothing to do with timing, only that Michael under Jesus’s command has the ability to carry out the task which is similar in nature to the event in 2 Thess.

Note the man of sin here is not the person of satan , he is under his control, but is not satan himself. The beast (man of sin) and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire Revelation 19:20. Satan is cast into the bottomless pit and bound with a chain by the angel for 1000 years in Revelation 20:1-3. The beast (man of sin) is given his power by the dragon (satan) Revelation 13:2.

The person who decides that Satan and his angels shall be cast down is the Lord Jesus Christ (Ezekiel 28:16). Not Michael. Michael and his angels will fight the war, but not as the decider to take action.

Agree totally. You are addressing a point I did not make.

I stand by my points on this topic. You have not really addressed the main point of my posts. Michael or another angel under Jesus’s command have the ability and power to carry out the events of 2 Thess.

 

[Luke17:37]

No, Paul did not say a thing about them having the wrong teaching or understanding of the timing of the rapture. You are making a wrong conclusion - that is not in the text. The false rumors were about the Day of the Lord, which is in verse 2, not in verse 1. Christ is the Lord.

That's not true.

Your wrong conclusion is that verse 1, his coming is the Second Coming. And that the gathering takes place then.

Verse 1 does not say anything about the Day of the Lord, nor His Second Coming, but the about his coming - which his coming to resurrect the believers and translate the living (the living) is in 1thessalonians4:15-16.

Your wrong conclusion is that His coming is not His second coming.

The first resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) includes the beheaded in the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4-6), therefore it cannot precede the Tribulation.

It does not say Second Coming in that passage, or in verse 1 of 2Thessalonians2. It will be Jesus Himself who comes to resurrect the dead - with a shout, and a trumpet blast to change the living. That's the Lord's coming and gathering in 2thessalonians2:1

So you have decided the coming and gathering isn't the second coming. Look at Matthew 24 (these verses are after the Tribulation).

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is what it says in 2thessalonians2 about the rumors. It does not mention the gathering, but the Day of the Lord. Paul does not state that their understanding of the timing of the rapture was wrong - but to squash the rumors about the Day of the Lord having already begun or on the very precipice of it (at hand).

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

It does mention the gathering in verse 1, but it looks like you have to saw off verse 1 and deny it even though verse 1 and 2 together make a complete sentence.

In addition, Paul does not state anywhere that the church or the Thessalonians would have to go through the Day of the Lord. Just the opposite, that the Day of the Lord, dependent on the revealing of the man of sin - is not going to happen until "he", the body of Christ here on earth is taken out of the way. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who can meet all three requirements for the "he".

No. You are asserting all kinds of things that aren't there.

 

[Douggg]

Your wrong conclusion is that His coming is not His second coming.

His coming and gathering in verse 1, is the fulfillment of his promise in John 14:3 to receive us unto himself and 1Thessalonians4:13-18 is he himself coming for his bride , which is not his Second Coming. The Second Coming is after the rapture of the church, because the marriage feast in Revelation 19 is after the marriage.

The Day of the Lord is not a time of celebration. It is a time of judgment.

The first resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) includes the beheaded in the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4-6), therefore it cannot precede the Tribulation.

It doesn't say first resurrection in 1Thessalonians 4:14-17. Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't say anything about the translation of the living (the rapture)

So you have decided the coming and gathering isn't the second coming. Look at Matthew 24 (these verses are after the Tribulation).

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That gathering pertains to the Jews scattered around the world - a referral back to God's promise back in Deuteronomy in His commitment to them.

It does mention the gathering in verse 1, but it looks like you have to saw off verse 1 and deny it even though verse 1 and 2 together make a complete sentence.

I never said two separate sentences, but two verses.

No. You are asserting all kinds of things that aren't there.

he, who now letteth - Jesus - who is given all power in heaven and in the earth to let things happen
he, who will let - Jesus - who will allow the man of sin to be revealed
he, to be taken out of the way - (Jesus) his body here on earth the church

What doesn't fit the "he" for all three requirements:
God the Father
The Holy Spirit
Michael, the angel
The church

 

[Douggg]

2 Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. In fact the language of this text backs a point I’ve made over and over. If it is God the Father, The Holy Spirit, or Jesus, who is it that is going to take them out of the way? No one has or will answer that question.

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who comes to take the church, his body, his bride, out of the way. John 14:3. In Genesis, the woman came from the man's body, and became Adam's wife.