2Cor 5:19

[fhansen]

Thats error, Sin not imputed has nothing to do with what the person does, its because of what God did in Christ Jesus on their behalf 2 Cor 5:18-19

Can a believer engage in persistent, wanton sin and still expect to make it to heaven?

 

[fhansen]

Thats error,

No, it's a simple question. Are you saying that a believer could rape, murder, steal right up to the end of his life and not have those sins imputed to them?

 

[Brightfame52]

Can a believer engage in persistent, wanton sin and still expect to make it to heaven?

A True believer cannot have that sin imputed to them, and they are on their way to heaven based upon Christs saving work.

Now even though no sin can be charged to the True believer, they will struggle with sin, because they have two principals in them, the Spiritual Nature and the old carnal man or nature, sin to them is a warfare like what Paul describes in Rom 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Nevertheless, sin will not be charged to them, no matter how much sin a believer commits sin,nor how long they may be overcome with sin!

 

[Brightfame52]

No, it's a simple question. Are you saying that a believer could rape, murder, steal right up to the end of his life and not have those sins imputed to them?

Yes if they are a True believer, and Christ has taken away their sin penalty, all their rape, murder, stealing has been already punished in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Yes if they are a True believer, and Christ has taken away their sin penalty, all their rape, murder, stealing has been already punished in Christ.

Ok. While your position would've been absurd to the early church and the early fathers, it is an honest logical extension of the doctrine of Sola Fide. How do you understand 1 John 3:7-8, for one?

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."

 

[Brightfame52]

Ok. While your position would've been absurd to the early church and the early fathers, it is an honest logical extension of the doctrine of Sola Fide. How do you understand 1 John 3:7-8, for one?

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."

Those who Christ died for aren't charged with sin,its not imputed to them, even though they sin 1 Jn 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The holy saved Paul realized he was still a sinner Rom 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul is saying presently as a Christian because of my sinful flesh, I serve the law of sin

But his sin cannot be laid to his account because Christ has dealt with his sins,the same for everyone Christ Died for.

God has promised to be merciful to all the sins of His People Heb 8 12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

They will not be charged to themin the day of Judgment.

 

[fhansen]

Those who Christ died for aren't charged with sin,its not imputed to them, even though they sin 1 Jn 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John also goes on to say in chap 3:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:9

And similarly Paul doesn't leave us hanging in chap 7, as he provides the answer to his dilemma:
"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Rom 7:24-25

Which he goes on to further explain in the next chapter:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:1-4, 12-14

 

[fhansen]

Paul is saying presently as a Christian because of my sinful flesh, I serve the law of sin

You don't know that. And yet we'll all continue to struggle against sin in this life-but now we can also overcome it. Man was not created to be a sinner, after all.

God has promised to be merciful to all the sins of His People Heb 8 12

The writer of Hebrews, there in chap 8 and also in chap 10, is quoting Jer 31:
"I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

By coming to know God we come to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him. Beginning with faith, this is what makes us His people, and that vital union, which results in those virtues, is the essence and basis of man's true righteous, a righteousness apart from the law that the Law and the Prophets could only testify to but could never accomplish in us (Rom 3:21). The way to this is reconciliation with God, the heart of the gospel, the object of our faith, the reason Jesus came.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

That's how/why John 17:3 works:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

As we come to know Him personally, as one of His children now, He justifies us, the ungodly; He 'puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts'. And the primary name of this righteousness is love, God's own nature, which fulfills the law by its nature (Rom 13:1, Gal 5:14), without even needing to hear the law.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

 

[Brightfame52]

John also goes on to say in chap 3:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:9

And similarly Paul doesn't leave us hanging in chap 7, as he provides the answer to his dilemma:
"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Rom 7:24-25

Which he goes on to further explain in the next chapter:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:1-4, 12-14

Yet the believer sins everyday,but its not charged to them, it will not be imputed Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Brightfame52]

You don't know that. And yet we'll all continue to struggle against sin in this life-but now we can also overcome it. Man was not created to be a sinner, after all.

The writer of Hebrews, there in chap 8 and also in chap 10, is quoting Jer 31:
"I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

By coming to know God we come to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him. Beginning with faith, this is what makes us His people, and that vital union, which results in those virtues, is the essence and basis of man's true righteous, a righteousness apart from the law that the Law and the Prophets could only testify to but could never accomplish in us (Rom 3:21). The way to this is reconciliation with God, the heart of the gospel, the object of our faith, the reason Jesus came.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

That's how/why John 17:3 works:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

As we come to know Him personally, as one of His children now, He justifies us, the ungodly; He 'puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts'. And the primary name of this righteousness is love, God's own nature, which fulfills the law by its nature (Rom 13:1, Gal 5:14), without even needing to hear the law.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

Paul said he sins everyday, he with the flesh served the law of sin,was captive by it , and looked for deliverance from it some day Rom 714-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says O wretched man I am [present tense] not wretched man i was past tense

Neverteless, sin will never be charged to Paul or any other believer because Justice has been satisfied.

 

[fhansen]

Paul said he sins everyday, he with the flesh served the law of sin,was captive by it , and looked for deliverance from it some day Rom 714-25

Paul is describing a struggle and a problem common to all of fallen humanity. And he gives the answer to it in Rom 7-8, the answer to sin! And no, it's not that God suddenly decides to ignore sin just because you believe, but rather that He does something about it, not holding you accountable for the past while opening up a new future. Your obligation to be righteous and live accordingly doesn't go away-it's finally made possible now as you become yoked together with Christ, now feeding off of the Vine. And yet He's patient in your growing in that slavery to righteousness now, but walking with the Spirit is where we now can be and must remain, overcoming sin. You have to throw out or ignore or deny half the new testament to believe otherwise.

Now under grace, He's not demanding absolute perfect sinlessness in this life, however, but a believer must be changed nonetheless, not fulfilling the desires of the flesh as outlined in Gal 5, Rev 21, 22, and elsewhere, not persisting in grave, serious sin IOW, such sin that leads to death as it directly opposes love of God and neighbor by its nature and destroys that love in us.

 

[Brightfame52]

Paul is describing a struggle and a problem common to all of fallen humanity. And he gives the answer to it in Rom 7-8, the answer to sin! And no, it's not that God suddenly decides to ignore sin just because you believe, but rather that He does something about it, not holding you accountable for the past while opening up a new future. Your obligation to be righteous and live accordingly doesn't go away-it's finally made possible now as you become yoked together with Christ, now feeding off of the Vine. And yet He's patient in your growing in that slavery to righteousness now, but walking with the Spirit is where we now can be and must remain, overcoming sin. You have to throw out or ignore or deny half the new testament to believe otherwise.

Now under grace, He's not demanding absolute perfect sinlessness in this life, however, but a believer must be changed nonetheless, not fulfilling the desires of the flesh as outlined in Gal 5, Rev 21, 22, and elsewhere, not persisting in grave, serious sin IOW, such sin that leads to death as it directly opposes love of God and neighbor by its nature and destroys that love in us.

Paul said he sins everyday, he with the flesh served the law of sin,was captive by it , and looked for deliverance from it some day Rom 714-25 and Paul is speaking as a Believer

 

[fhansen]

Paul said he sins everyday, he with the flesh served the law of sin,was captive by it , and looked for deliverance from it some day Rom 714-25 and Paul is speaking as a Believer

He's talking about the human fallen condition, that we're now able to triumph over. And this is very obvious as he proceeds to explain it at the end of 7 then on through 8, which you've apparently ignored.

 

[Brightfame52]

He's talking about the human fallen condition, that we're now able to triumph over. And this is very obvious as he proceeds to explain it at the end of 7 then on through 8, which you've apparently ignored.

Paul is talking as a believer who still has the sinful flesh which causes him to sin everyday, in captivity Rom 7:23

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[fhansen]

Paul is talking as a believer who still has the sinful flesh which causes him to sin everyday, in captivity Rom 7:23

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

And we can now be free from that captivity.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

 

[Brightfame52]

And we can now be free from that captivity.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

Every believer born of God will continue to sin Rom 7 but their sin will never be imputed to them. Paul as a born again believer says he serves the law of sin with the flesh.

Rom 7:23-25

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Only a saved man can serve the Law of God, so Paul is saved and still serves the law of sin

 

[fhansen]

Every believer born of God will continue to sin Rom 7 but their sin will never be imputed to them. Paul as a born again believer says he serves the law of sin with the flesh.

Rom 7:23-25

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Only a saved man can serve the Law of God, so Paul is saved and still serves the law of sin

And yet he said we can and must overcome the deeds of the flesh: sin. All of scripture reconciles well when the gospel is properly understood.

 

[Brightfame52]

And yet he said we can and must overcome the deeds of the flesh: sin. All of scripture reconciles well when the gospel is properly understood.

Just understand a believers sins everyday for the rest of their life,but they will never be charged with it or condemned for it. Thats their account in the Day of Judgment

 

[fhansen]

Just understand a believers sins everyday for the rest of their life,but they will never be charged with it or condemned for it. Thats their account in the Day of Judgment.

Nah
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences." 2 Cor 5:10-11

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

And so, again:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

So that John can rightfully say:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

But, what the heck, it's only Scripture. By grace God gives us the way to overcome sin but we'd prefer no obligation, no burden at all, even the light one that Jesus offers us.

 

[Brightfame52]

Nah
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences." 2 Cor 5:10-11

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

And so, again:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

So that John can rightfully say:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

But, what the heck, it's only Scripture. By grace God gives us the way to overcome sin but we'd prefer no obligation, no burden at all, even the light one that Jesus offers us.

Those whom Jesus died for and reconciled to God, dont have their sins charged to their account 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Thats there account in the Day of Judgment. They will not give an account for any sins they committed, not ever, Jesus who is their account paid it all. And they shall sin all the days of their life while having the flesh, the body of death Rom 7