• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

280 Weeks are Determined

Are you interested in the 280 weeks?

  • Not particularly. I’ll just read along.

  • Yep, let’s do a live Zoom Meeting.

  • Yep, but just continue on this thread.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,494
2,833
MI
✟432,939.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.
Excellent job of avoiding the point I made about the day of judgment occurring when Christ comes with His angels. Well done. Would it be too much trouble for me to ask how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?
 
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟916,165.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.


In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
You cannot have judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

Is His appearing found in Matthew 24?

.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,020
✟843,047.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Why didn't any of the writers of Scripture draw charts for us?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,417
575
58
Mount Morris
✟148,028.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
They have God’s seal on their forehead. Can Satan place God’s seal on a forehead or just 666?

Why do you think this is a big issue? The church is not even here during the Trumpets. Do you think good works and endurance sets you apart from those in Christ?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,417
575
58
Mount Morris
✟148,028.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Those in Christ are not dead, but in Paradise. There is no resurrection because the angels brought them from Paradise, the 4 corners of heaven, the 4 corners of Paradise. Christ brings the living church with him, to meet the living church on earth. The church is not dead, but alive. If you are in a dead church waiting to be resurrected, you are in the wrong church.

Do you think those in sheol get the same reward and judgment as those in Christ? Why would they all stand before God at the same time? Putting all humanity that ever lived at the same judgment, denies the Cross where the Lamb, God Himself judged sin and took the sting out of death. Those in Christ will never stand in judgment with those still in sin and death.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
You cannot have judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

Is His appearing found in Matthew 24?

.
Read the whole verse of 2Timothy4:1.

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Jesus reigns here on this earth for a thousand years after his coming. Then the Great White Throne judgment.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Excellent job of avoiding the point I made about the day of judgment occurring when Christ comes with His angels. Well done. Would it be too much trouble for me to ask how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?
It is one of the series of parables in Matthew 25, regarding how we should live and treat others.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,540
252
48
Washington
✟284,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
They have God’s seal on their forehead. Can Satan place God’s seal on a forehead or just 666?

So an angel which has the seal of God will appear on earth and start stamping people in the forehead? And when he reaches #144,000 he’s done?
Why do you think this is a big issue?

Because when someone puts forth a view it has to make sense. If you can’t define who a Jew is, then why should I believe the view that all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟916,165.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

The passage below proves you are not correct.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,020
✟843,047.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
They were not living in the time of the end. Really, what I think is going to convince you regarding my charts is when the EU forms that ten leader form of government, which the little horn appears.

The NT writers were. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The little horn appeared long ago.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,417
575
58
Mount Morris
✟148,028.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
"After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree.
2 I saw another angel coming up from the east with a seal from the living God, and he shouted to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea,
3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”
4 I heard how many were sealed — 144,000 from every tribe of the people of Isra’el:"

Have you ever read this? It gives us the names of 12 tribes next.

Explain what is symbolic about this if you reject God's Word for some man made private interpretation. God sent the angel and the text does not say the angel raised any objection like you have done. I am sure the angel understood clearly, from God, who gets sealed.

How does this effect the re-gathering of Israel? This is the harvest, not the resurrection that comes in Revelation 20:4. Israel alive at that time will see the Lamb as their Messiah. It will be God that opens their eyes, not magic, or a change of heart. But physical death has to happen before the kingdom can start at the first resurrection.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I have a chart addressing you claims. Showing the 7th angel sounding, Revelation 11:15, and the reward crowns given to the saints in heaven Revelation 11:18, while here on earth God begins the process of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the great.


 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,540
252
48
Washington
✟284,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Yes I have read this and my interpretation is this…

Revelation 7:1 has the 4 angels holding the 4 winds of the earth that they shouldn’t blow on the earth, sea, or trees. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind.

Revelation 7:2-3 another angel with the seal of God commands the 4 angels not to hurt the earth, sea, trees till we have sealed the servants of our God. The wind not blowing on the earth is what was hurting it. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind, this is the Gospel being allowed to be preached in all the world (to the Gentiles).

Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed, which is 144,000. I place the 144,000 as being sealed prior to the event of Pentecost because they “were”, as in past tense, sealed.


We have diverted from my original question which was not about the 144,000. I’m going to ask again, can you give a definition of who the Jews will be that return to Israel? If you can’t give me a direct answer on this then I think we should end our conversation. I’m really not interested in having a long debate that wanders into other various topics.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,417
575
58
Mount Morris
✟148,028.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So the 12 tribes were well defined in the 1st century but not now?

I’m going to ask again, can you give a definition of who the Jews will be that return to Israel?

Only ones currently alive. Not dead people in sheol.

I am curious though, why did no one in the early church mention 144k believers?

Jesus has 12 disciples and only God knows if each was from a different tribe. James and John were brothers. Andrew and Peter were brothers so that messes with your tribal theory in the 1st century.

Why would the Lamb now in the 21st century not have 1200 from each tribe as His disciples? Revelation 14:1-5

"Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Tziyon; and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing waters and like the sound of pealing thunder; the sound I heard was also like that of harpists playing on their harps.
3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;
5 on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect."

We see the same 144k with God's name sealed on their foreheads. They follow the Lamb everywhere. Is your claim that Jesus did not have the 12 named disciples but in reality there were 144,000 who have followed Jesus during the first 3.5 years of ministry in the 1st century, and will do the same at the Second Coming now in the 21st century? The same Jewish male virgins?

Your point is who can be a true Jew, no? Now you want to know who was a true Jew in the 1st century or now in the 21st century?

My point is Revelation 7 points out that with God all things are possible, even if you claim these 144,000 followed Jesus around both in the 1st century and will do the same in the 21st century. Honestly I can accept them being there in the 1st century, no matter how unplausible. As long as you accept they are still doing the same thing in the 21st century. They are not the church by choice. God chose them personally for a specific task: to be the disciples of the Lamb.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Whew! And there I was thinking that your "ramifications for Amils" would disagree (in the above 7 points you made) with Premils who agree with everything you said in the above 7 points, with reservation (in my case) about

* The word "Gentile" in point #2 (there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ); and
* Your (guesstimation?) in point #3 (which I believe is 100% possible, does not contradict scripture, yet is not stated explicitly enough in scripture to be included in the above points). There is already a quiet (Jesus) revival taking place among the Jews. I'm not looking forward to a major revival among them before the end of this age.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟916,165.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have a chart addressing you claims.

I have the text below which addresses your chart.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.
 
Upvote 0