28 issues with Quran

[AskTheFamily]

I couldn't attach the file here, so just go to this link: 28 Issues With Quran - ShiaChat.com

If anyone finds a solution to any of the issues, they can post it or pm me.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

I dont know the purpose of this thread but its not surprising Shia say such rubbish as this.

 

[SanFrank]

I dont know the purpose of this thread but its not surprising Shia say such rubbish as this.

Nothing else comes to mind? I always get a one line response from you too. So good to see you put an effort.

 

[SanFrank]

I'll take on one at a time. Great stuff for studying. Thanks for bringing these to our attention.

Now that you've moved on, consider looking at the koran from a exegetical standpoint rather than a religious one. Keeping religion out of it helps a person's perspective to see things in different angles.

With the foregoing, consider that the koran is a fabrication and a work of plagiarism taking bits and pieces from the Torah and NT. As stated in 10:37 "And that this was the collection, that fabricated one, from superior (to) “allah”,
The word used here is yuftara; it says that the qur'an is a fabrication.

So then, teeni is fig tree. 95.1 mentions both figs and olives. Guess what? They are both VERY biblical terms used by the Lord himself countless times in the NT. The Lord's parables includes the fig tree. The olive branch is symbolic of the Jewish candelabra. So let's see how they figure in with the rest of this sura.

95.3 mentions a city. What city? Has to be Jerusalem after we see mention of both fig and olive. But this Jerusalem is the NEW Jerusalem mentioned in Revelations. Remember the material they used came from the Torah and New Testament.

So here it is...

95.1 And/by the fig tree and/by the olive tree. (Announces and swears by The New Jerusalem)
95.2 And stones equal in length and breadth. (The New Jerusalem)
95.3 And this, the city, the faithful. (The New Jerusalem)
95.4 Truly we created the human in excellent stature. (The First Resurrection)
95.5 Then we returned him back lowest (to) those who are low. (The Second Death)
95.6 Except they whom believed and they did the righteous deeds, so for them a reward but not diminished. (Jesus’ Elect in the New Jerusalem)
95.7 So that which you cry lies after with the judgment? (The Second Death)
95.8 Is not “allah” with the judges more powerful? (The Second Death)

From this angle, we see that it mentions both resurrection and the second death as described in Revelations. In the context of New Jerusalem, only the resurrected inhabit here so obviously it talks about the second death of Revelations. At the time of the second death, everyone should have bowed their knees to Lord Christ. So only those truly wicked go to the second death. This is open to interpretation since we do not have the mind of the author.

 

[PHenry42]

I just looked into the first few of those verses. Frankly, I think you're picking them apart and reading them too literally without regard to context, even when the context makes it imo quite obvious what's meant. I can get back to you when I have more time.

 

[SanFrank]

With regards to sura 11: 15,16, you say: ​

This verse is basically telling anyone whom has desire for this world will end up eternally in hell. Now how does that even give a remote concept of a Merciful Loving Forbearing God? Whom can not desire this world at all? Notice the verse doesn't say "only desire this world" or anything like that, it clearly states any desire for the world will result the fire forever.
Now the verse in fact has a contradiction. Paradise is promised to those whom believe and do good deeds. Now what if they like most believers probably do, have love of this world, and did some good deeds. They would be promised paradise by verses promising believers whom do good paradise, yet this verse is stating they would go hell, for desire of this world.

I have to agree that there is a contradiction. For one, what is paradise if not a place that fills a person's desires? And muslims who desire this world are not given everything they desire, are they?

I would add that 13 and 14 are disingenuous. I think I could come up with 10 suras of higher quality.

Plus this is a statement any person would make full of pride over his poetry. Suppose I ardently spent time writing 10 suras of poetry. My pride would lead me to tell someone, "I bet you can't beat me." That is what I am hearing from this verse.

​

​

11:13 Or they say: "He fabricated and split it." Say: "So come or bring with ten chapters similar/equal/alike to it fabricated, and call whom you were able from other than god if you were truthful."
11:14. So if they do not answer to you, so know that (the Koran) was/is descended with god's knowledge, that (there is) no god except Him, so are you submitters/Moslems?"​

 

[AskTheFamily]

I would appreciate it if posts are limited to showing solutions to problems I presented.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I thought of a solution for one of the problems, the hardship with ease, can be specific to his hardship as opposed to being a general statement.

 

[SanFrank]

i see my post #4 as solutionary; i'm sorry you don't

 

[Kufffar]

[Yusufali 17:59] And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

This verse is basically stating the only thing that prevented from sending signs was that past people rejected them. The question is how can this be the reason and the one and only reason?

Assume it's reasonable, then we ask, why didn't it prevent signs being sent before. People before Isa time rejected miracles, but miracles were sent with him. Same is true for Musa.So this cannot be the reason. Now having discussed this, I've seen people say:

He didn't send signs because people would have rejected.
He didn't send signs because they were no longer effective
He didn't send signs because he didn't want them to be punished.

All these are other reasons that what is stated, the stated reason is simply one thing only: past people rejected the signs. So making different motives for not sending signs doesn't make sense.

I've seen it stated that some how the past people rejecting signs effected the people in the future. Some way magically it did and made in ineffective. Well the reason for not sending signs would be because it's ineffective as well, because he can still send signs even if it's ineffective. Now aside from that, if people in the past rejecting didn't stop people later receiving signs/miracles, then is it reasonable to assume its all together different for Mohammad people?

So this verse is illogical. In fact per other verse, a Sign was sent later, moon splitting supposedly. So it seems the reason didn't prevent from sending signs either way. Another contradiction.

Here is a solution.
Though miracles were absent (or never happened), people respond positively to someone saying they occurred... they become believers and wait for signs themselves. So lying and saying miracles occurred creates believers because of human nature.

I'm still looking for corroborating evidence from another historian saying that the moon split around 600AD. No other historian reported it that i know of.

Many numerous miracles translate to greater belief and a larger number of people believing. So the lack of miracles by mohammad does not make sense. That means that people becoming muslim today do it from peer pressure, not academic.

 

[Kufffar]

[Shakir 64:11] No affliction comes about but by Allah's permission; and whoever believes in Allah, He guides aright his heart; and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

This verse states anyone whom believes in God, God will guide his heart. Yet according to Quran, anyone whom rejects Islam is misguided, and is deaf, dumb, and blind. It's possible to believe in God and reject Islam. In fact, it's possible to believe in God and be of any misguided religion. So this issue of all people whom believe in God, will be guided, is simply not true.

Here is a solution.
Other religions don't have hell under their feet to deal with. The statement "believes in allah" is all-inclusive of the hot fires of Hell. This intense Fear of the unknown is what keeps muslims "guided" in that direction of islam. This ilah is cognizant of that.

Better to be deaf, dumb and blind so that islam never comes to mind and hell is never heard or seen.

Which god do you believe in? There is a good creator, and there is the bad liar one.

 

[SanFrank]

Hey ATF, I found a solution to one problem.

(7)
The following verses give an impression that there is no hope for the disbelievers of his time:

[Shakir 2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[Shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[Shakir 2:171] And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.

In fact, being deaf, dumb, and blind is for the purpose of not returning:

[Shakir 2:18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.
[Shakir 24:40] Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.
[Shakir 18:57] And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the communications of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his two hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts lest they should understand it and a heaviness in their ears; and if you call them to the guidance, they will not ever follow the right course in that case.

Basically, they are hopeless, in the darkness, will never understand the book, deaf to hear the call.

This verse summarizes it perfectly:

[Shakir 7:193] And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.
[Shakir 36:10] And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe.

Now was that true? Apparently, they ended up coming to the religion.

[Shakir 110:2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,

So all that talk about their fate sealed, going to hell, deaf, dumb, and blind, and they end up coming to the religion. The talk "they will not believe" and they end up coming in the religion.

A clear contradiction.

Another brief thing is that some people make "kufr" mean "to cover" or "obstinately disbelief", however we see clearly what it means here:

[Shakir 2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Here disbelief in the "taghut" obviously doesn't mean "obstinately" or "covering"..or anything like that. It means disbelief. And it doesn't make sense the word means something else when applied to "revelation" or "truth", with an added adjective. It obviously means the same thing.
So after saying "they will never be guided" "will not believe" "will not follow you", they are deaf to all calls, they ended up coming to Islam.

The solution is to delete suras 110 and 2:256 from the qur'an. The remaining suras you quoted would then make sense.

 

[SanFrank]

To be clear, there is no tug-of-war going on here between religions. I get the feeling there is a sense of losing when someone questions their religion or retreats from their religion.

I am also aware that I have very little if anything to do with another person's decision making. Each person gathers as much information as possible from multiple sources to come to a conclusion about their religion.

Someone else mentioned the existence of other gospels, like that of Barnabas, Thomas, Mary, all considered gnostic. I am aware that gnostic ideas are present in islam too. If I atleast get muslims to see that their version of Christ is gnostic, I have helped them get a step closer to the real Christ. My aim is for people to know the real Christ.

 

[PHenry42]

I'm in the process of replying to the issues raised in the linked document. I'll post you another file, with my answers included, when I'm done.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I'm in the process of replying to the issues raised in the linked document. I'll post you another file, with my answers included, when I'm done.

Ok thanks, look forward to it.

 

[ks777]

AskTheFamily, I haven't read the thread but I do admire that you critically think and question things about religion, often the religious can't rationally examine things to do with their faith and rather turn a blind eye, which is a bit pathetic. Same goes for science nuts who have a theory they believe in, and aren't open to anything opposing it, or going as far as to fabricate evidence for it. If only we could all search for the truth without being biased somehow...

 

[peaceful soul]

AskTheFamily, I haven't read the thread but I do admire that you critically think and question things about religion, often the religious can't rationally examine things to do with their faith and rather turn a blind eye, which is a bit pathetic. Same goes for science nuts who have a theory they believe in, and aren't open to anything opposing it, or going as far as to fabricate evidence for it. If only we could all search for the truth without being biased somehow...

Absolutely!

It's important to think, study, and look at more than just what one has been taught to believe in an attempt to find out what is true and right and what is not.

 

[SanFrank]

I tried looking for a solution to this one but could not find one.

(6)
[Shakir 17:94] And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?


This verse when thought about is illogical as well. First of all, it's unimaginable that no one considered a human messenger as a possibility, so that cannot be the reason in itself. 2nd, how can a question, rather then the motive behind the question, be the reason? Another issue is that a good response to this question would have indeed convinced them, unless something else would prevent them, so it cannot be the reason in itself. In fact, there is different motives in Quran presented as to why they didn't believe from it. This includes not believing in the hereafter and cling to Satanic whispering, not listening and pondering, being deaf, dumb, and blind and have covering so they don't understand. All this is mentioned. It also begs the question if this is only thing preventing from them from believing, wouldn't it stay the same reason later? Yet we see this is not the reason people don't believe.

Again we see defensive posturing from the author. Since a mere man presented the qur'an, the author has to defend himself with such an ayat. It is obvious he forgot this ayat when he mentions other reasons in other sura. There is no solution around this obvious error.

 

[SanFrank]

I dont get any response to my investigations but regardless, I am gaining knowledge as I pick thru these issues. Hope they help you.

(10)
[Shakir 14:34] And He gives you of all that you ask Him; and if you count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely man is very unjust, very ungrateful.
[Shakir 2:186] And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.

According to these verses, everything we ask of God, we should get a response. Now we know that is simply not true. People make prayers that are not answered. People ask to heal, but they don't get it. Poor people want to get out poverty and ask and don't get it. People whom want to be guided to the truth, ask, but don't get it. Different people of different faiths can ask for paradise but per Quran they won't get it, if they reject revelation. In fact, it's well established fact, that prayers not always answered. We certainly don't get all we ask for.

And this brings us to the most important request of all -- asking "allah" to forgive you. You are aware and acknowledge that nothing you or muslims ask is granted, so why should forgiveness be granted. There are over 150 aya that tell muslims to "ask 'allah' for forgiveness", but why? There are aya that tell muslims to "ask for blessings" but, as you are aware, these go unanswered.


4:106 "but ask God's pardon: verily, God is forgiving, merciful."

.