25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

[LouisBooth]

"You can not find that any where else in the bible. "

Really? Have you not read romans? or any other of Paul's letters? You will fail. YOu will sin. It is only unrepented habital sin. paul says those are the people you discipline in love. did you not read that? Paul also says we are not to keep sinning.

 

[SnuP]

In every one of those scriptrues Paul is not talking to people who are living in Christ.  This is specifically what we are talking about.

 

[SnuP]

I am not talking about ordinary christians, I was never talking about them, they always sin.

I am only refering to Christians who are living in Christ (i.e. living out God's perfect will in every area in life).  These Christians will not sin.  They cannot as long as they remain in Christ.

 

[LouisBooth]

"I am not talking about ordinary christians, I was never talking about them, they always sin."

HUH? all christians are "in christ" so you're saying now there are at least 2 different types of christians? Where in the world do you get this from? Do you have scripture to support this? (oh..I'm trying not to be mean or anything to that effect just surpised more then anything else).

 

[SnuP]

Maybe you should slow down a bit and accually read the post.  It would keep me from having to type the same thing more than once.  I know that you are posting to a lot a different treads all at the same time, but please slow down a bit for the rest of our sakes.

There are two types of Christians, those who do God's will and those who don't.      Those who obey and those who don't.  I don't need scripture to prove this, you already know this.  God is not the one who has made this distinction, christians have done this by there own actions. 

 

[LouisBooth]

Ahh..okay, I did indeed miss that, my appoligies. So now, are you saying that it is possible to do his will all the time, perfectly?

 

[SnuP]

Yes I am.  What we call walking in the Spirit.

Galations  5:16

 

[SnuP]

The idea is that you are not trying to do any thing but remain close to Him (His presence).  And by virtue of that lusting after the Spirit you remain in His will, do not sin, and do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Galations 5:16"

okay, using your arugment then the christians that don't do God's will are under the law then still? this seems like an oxymoron? if you are not living in christ and you say that you can be a christian and not do this then according to verse 18 you think some christians are under the law, which is not what Paul says, thus I would think your interpreation might be wrong.

Paul very clearly says in scripture that christians are no longer under the law.

 

[SnuP]

But he also says that if you try to fulfill one part of the law then you are bound by all of it.

I believe that if you are trying to do anything in the way of righteousness (I.e. trying to stop from doing a perticular sin) then you are under the law.  The only way to stop sinning is to allow God to deliver you from it and heal any emotional wound that caused the sin.

This way there is never any wresling only victory.

And yes I have experienced this process and it is wonderful.

 

[SnuP]

The idea is that you can place yourself back under the law by trying to do what only God can do.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear SnuP,

you said this, But he also says that if you try to fulfill one part of the law then you are bound by all of it.

I believe that if you are trying to do anything in the way of righteousness (I.e. trying to stop from doing a perticular sin) then you are under the law. The only way to stop sinning is to allow God to deliver you from it and heal any emotional wound that caused the sin.

AND this The idea is that you can place yourself back under the law by trying to do what only God can do.

Those under the law are not under grace. Those under grace are not under the law. There is only one way to get out from under the law- getting saved. There is no way to get unsaved and get back under the law. We died to the law [Rom 6:15 -Rom 7:3].

Like the widowed woman who is freed from her marriage to her dead husband, we are freed by our death [through being buried with Christ and risen to new life] from the law. We are forever dead to the law. That is why Paul says to reckon ourselves as dead to the lae but alive unto righteousness. But we can place ourselves under the law by our attitude, BUT that is a frame of mind not an actual position.

IF by living as if we are under the law we lose out on the blessings God has for us under grace, NOT because we are actually under the law, BUT because we are blind to the truth and ignorant of it as well, unable to stand on our faith and trust God. For those trying to live under law are trusting themselves and NOT God and therefore NOT living by faith.

Since those who are actually under the law CANNOT keep it in its entirety, they earn the everlasting death they deserve.

Now you said you were in Christ then you sinned. According to what you are saying, you now are no longer in Christ, but under law. You also said you have been [paraphrased] in and out of this state numerous times. You seem to be saying that you go in and out of being under law. That is not OSAS. Those under the law will die. They will die because they are sinners under law and are condemned, or they will die by dying with Christ and being raised with Him –the born again experience,

Are you saying that you get born again every time you sin and repent? What about your sins of ignorance? Where do they fit in?

To sum up: We died to the law when we died with Christ and rose with Him to new life. This new life is life under grace which we live by faith. When we do not walk by faith and instead try to walk by sight, we are trying to walk under law, under the old man, or as Hobart puts it, we are walking in the soul and not in our spirit. But we are not actually under law. James, Paul, and especially Jesus point out to us the impossibility of our ALWAYS walking in perfect obedience of which only Jesus did. BUT that is the standard of God’s righteousness. That is why we walk by faith, because we counted righteous due to the blood of Jesus which covers our unrighteousness and clothes us with the pure white robes of His righteousness. It is because we are no longer under the law [the need to walk perfectly] that we are free to walk in love knowing that our sins are not counted against us. With the law no longer there to condemn us, we admonish ourselves for we have the law written on our hearts: we know by the Spirit within what is and is not pleasing to our Lord.

So no matter what experience you had, your theology is confusing to me and seemingly inconsistent.

In Him,
mike

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SnuP
I know when I posted that I lived sinless for at least three months that I did not tell how this was acomplished.  At the time I only wanted to show that it was a real possibility and not just a belief.  The thruth is that during that time I was completely dedicated to seeking God with all of my heart.  I wanted Him badly.  The result was that I did not sin.

The purpose wasn't to live without sin, that was rust a bennifit.  The purpose was to touch God, and remain there, for as long as I could hold on.

Eventually God began to show me that there were areas in my life that needed to be cleaned up.  I accually became discuraged because some of those seemed insurmounable.  But by His grace He has brought and continues to bring healing to the wounds of my heart.  I am much stronger now than I was before and my relationship with God has grown significantly.  Praise be to the Most High, creator of heaven and earth and adopter of wayward children.

Wow, what an incouragement to hear someone tell of their desire to touch God.  My desire too is to be the same tpye of "friend" to God that Moses and Abraham were.  I want to hear and feel His heartbeat. 

To touch God's heart is sometimes beyond my comprehension. But it is not beyond His.  And always, as we draw closer to Him the light of His presence shines on us and reveals the "stuff" that He wants to clean away so we don't trip over it anymore. 

He's made the path straight and lit the way.  I agree, praise be to the Most High God.  Our Redeemer.  Our Wall of Fire. Our Fortress. Our Shadow from the Heat.  Our Strength.

I passed you some blessings brother!  Just because I wanted to.

 

 

 

[SnuP]

Quaffer, thanks.  You already on my buddy list.  You are a blessing to me.

 

mjwhite, check out Galations 5

these people were saved but came under the law again because they persued circumsision.  Would you say that they were never saved?  The truth is that they are still saved need to be brought back to repentence and grace. 

 

[mjwhite]

Dear SnuP,

I agree that they needed to repent and live by faith, but it is by grace that they will do that. Romans 2:4 tells us: "Do you think so little of the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and patience, not realizing that it is God's kindness that is leading you to repentance?"

There is a difference between being under the law and living like you are under the law. Paul wasn't telling them the were under law but living like it. Look at the last few verses of chapter 4. Verse 31 tells us: "So then, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman."

You become a child of the 'free woman' by having faith in the promise, by being born again. Who are you? You are a child of the free woman. That is who you are and you cannot change that by actions [works] because you have been born from above by the Spirit of God.

But you can seek to live like you are still enslaved [a child of the slave woman]. He is not talking about whether one is saved or not but about the BENEFITS of the freedom we have in Christ. When we choose to submit to the law, the benefits we have by living by faith go bye bye. That is what it means when it says that if we allow ourselves to be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to us.
Verse 13 tells us that we have been called to freedom. We are are called to because we are free in Christ, so the call is for us to live in that freedom, both by realizing we have it [we are not under law] and by not using the freedom to sin. Verse 18 tells us that if we are being led by the Spirit, we are not under the law.

Romans 8 further clarifies this: 9-14 However you are not under the control of the flesh but under the control of the spirit, since God's spirit lives in you. Whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to Him. If Christ is in you, your bodies are dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the one who raised Christ from the dead lives in you, then the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who lives in you. So then brothers, we don't owe it to the flesh to live the way the flesh wants us to live. If you live by the flesh, you are going to die, but if by the Spirit you continually put to death the activities of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the God's Spirit are God's children."

If we have the Spirit, we are God's children and will be led by Him. We will sometimes stumble, sin and lose focus, but because of WHO we are [children of God because we have the Spirit] we will be led on towards God.

It is because of WHO we ARE[children of the free woman] that we can never be children of the slave woman [WHO we WERE] EVEN IF we try and live like it.

So who brings back His children who are trying to live under law [slavery] and not grace? God does. It is by His kindness that we are led to repentance.

love in Him,
mike

 

[SnuP]

Thanks for your reply mike.

Its seems that we accually are in agreement, just we are using our terms differently.

I believe that a person, once they are saved can never be in bondage to the law again.  But, like you said, they can submit to the law again.  I believe that all sin is out of submission to the law or from under the law.  That you can submit to the law in some areas of your life and see the curse active and submit to Christ in other areas and see those areas blessed.  If you submit to the law then you reep from it.  If you submit to Christ then you reep from him.

 

[LouisBooth]

"But he also says that if you try to fulfill one part of the law then you are bound by all of it."

Agreed, he is saying that if you want to do on part, you must do it all because its an all or nothing thing. That's the thrust of that verse. He DOES NOT and NEVER says any Christ is EVER under the law again. they are under Christ, now and forever.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The idea is that you can place yourself back under the law by trying to do what only God can do."
Nope, you can't..this statement of yours also doesn't mess with this statement

"I believe that a person, once they are saved can never be in bondage to the law again. "

If you are never under the law, you can submit until the cows come home and that doesn't change anything.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Louis,

you said"
If you are never under the law, you can submit until the cows come home and that doesn't change anything.

It doesn't change your status, you remain NOT under the law. But when you change your perspective, it changes how you see life. There are real problems with Christians doing this otherwise Galatians wouldn't have been written.

Paul wasn't trying to LEGALLY bind the Galatians, but warn them about that trying to live by rules instead of by the Spirit is the wrong perspective on how to live out their lives as children of God. And by living out their lives in the wromg way, they will be ineffectual due to their strivings to live up to that which they cannot live up to: perfectness through obedience to the law.

Rather Paul was telling us that we are free from the law so that we can walk in confidence that despite our failings[and sins], God loves us and will always love us. This freedom is ours because God has taken the enemity that seperated us and nailed it ot the cross. Since we are free, we should walk as free men, as who we are, children of the King of Kings, princes and princesses in the everlasting kingdom of the Creator God Almighty.

To walk under the law, as if it had power over us negates that freedom and the grace that comes with it. By living under the law we are not walking by faith but by sight, not by the Spirit, but by the world.

So it does change things.

in His love,
mike

 

[LouisBooth]

"There are real problems with Christians doing this otherwise Galatians wouldn't have been written. "

Agreed, but in the perspective you and I have, this dismissed the views he offered earlier about romans chapter 7.

"To walk under the law, as if it had power over us negates that freedom and the grace that comes with it. By living under the law we are not walking by faith but by sight, not by the Spirit, but by the world."

Totally agreed. It changes things in terms of our sanctificaiton, not our salvation, and that was what he implied, and why I said that. Context my friends