25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

[SnuP]

1 John 2:6

Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.

So who here walks as Jesus walks?

Luois, you continuely question those who claim to be able to do things that Jesus did, as if they were decieved.  When are you going to start doing the things that Jesus did and walk the way that Jesus walked (sinless, etc.)?

 

[MizDoulos]

Note: If the discussion continues to deteriorate into personal accusations, this thread will be closed permanently. I suggest everyone cool off and then return to the forum. This will be the last warning, so please think twice before posting again.

Thank you.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. "

Hi Louis and Snup,
As I was telling Mike, we really need to read more than one verse in this chapter to see what 1st John is saying. We have to look back to verse 6 and look carefully at the word "IF".

1 John 1:
6 If, while we are living in darkness, we profess to have fellowship with Him, we speak falsely and are not adhering to the truth.

What the passage is saying is:
If you find yourself in darkness but claim to still be in fellowsip with God, then you are lying. This is only if you are in darkness. If you are not in darkness, then these words as well as verse 8 do not apply.
You have to read verse eight with the prior "if" in mind .If you are in darkness and if you say you have no sin, then you deceive youself.

It is not saying we are always sinners and always in darkness. This only applies when you have sinned and are in darkness. The normal state of a believer is to be sinless and in the light.

 

[mjwhite]

 

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobart,

I agree with your post. Your last two in fact.

But when I asked you if you knew of anyone who did not sin, you replied that none of our [born again Christians] spirits sins because our spirit is that of God [the Holy Spirit].

That is true. But your current topis is this: How not to sin again.

But if we do not sin now [since we are saved and have a new una able to sin spirit] why do we need to know "How not to sin"?

Only those who sin need to know "How not to sin". Those who do not sin already know how not to sin.

So when I asked you if you knew anyone who did not sin, I wasn't refering to whose spirits do not sin, but rather to the whole person who does not sin. Since we can sin [as Christians] even without our spirit sinning, you have given us instruction on how not to sin, correct?

And since your stated goal was to instruct us how not to sin AGAIN, I thought I should ask if anyone you know has ever reached that state [not sinning again] while still in the body. So I ask...

Do you know anyone who doesn't ever sin?

In otherwords, do you know anybody who has reached this goal you are instructing us in.

Thanks,
mike

 

[Andrew]

One might reach that state -- but for a while and then fall again. nonetheless we all strive not to commit sin, and it helps to know that our sins are not counted against us.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But when I asked you if you knew of anyone who did not sin, you replied that none of our [born again Christians] spirits sins because our spirit is that of God [the Holy Spirit].

That is true. But your current topis is this: How not to sin again.

True, though I see the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit as completely separate. The Holy Spirit is God. the spirit we have is reborn, a completely new creation. It is the spirit of Christ. We are one with Christ just as we were once one with the devil(in spirit).


But if we do not sin now [since we are saved and have a new unable to sin spirit] why do we need to know "How not to sin"?

Only those who sin need to know "How not to sin". Those who do not sin already know how not to sin.

Good point. This is because we are not spirits floating around. We have a flesh that needs to be crucified and a soul that needs to be renewed. "How to never sin again" is actually "how to walk in the spirit of Christ and how to crucify the flesh and how to renew the mind"
The first step is to learn to walk in the power of your regenerate spirit. To do this we first have to realize the reborn spirit we have is a trustworthy thing to walk in. We can "put on" this inward man. Before we were born again we did not want to put on this inward man! Before we were born again evil things proceeded out of the spirit and we learned to not do them, or even say these leadings.

Mat 15:
19 for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:

This was true about us when we were unregerate. No longer! So we have a lifetime of supressing the spirit. We are practiced in walking in the soulish cultures/religions. These are all things we have to stop doing. We have to stop the practice of walking in the dead religions that we used to suppress the spirit. We have to find out how to walk in the spirit.

So when I asked you if you knew anyone who did not sin, I wasn't refering to whose spirits do not sin, but rather to the whole person who does not sin. Since we can sin [as Christians] even without our spirit sinning, you have given us instruction on how not to sin, correct?

Yes. And the instruction is how to overcome the world. John refers to the power of sin in our "whole person" as "all that is in the world".

1 John 2:16
(YLT) because all that is in the world--the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life--is not of the Father, but of the world,


And this brings us to the central point, and that is that we overcome the world by faith:


1 John 5:4
For every child of God overcomes the world; and the victorious principle which has overcome the world is our faith.


And since your stated goal was to instruct us how not to sin AGAIN, I thought I should ask if anyone you know has ever reached that state [not sinning again] while still in the body. So I ask...

Do you know anyone who doesn't ever sin?
In otherwords, do you know anybody who has reached this goal you are instructing us in.


In the context of 1 John 1, that is the "whole man"... no.
In the context of 1 John 3, that is the "seed"(spirit), all believers.

 

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by SnuP
So who here walks as Jesus walks?

Louis, you continuely question those who claim to be able to do things that Jesus did, as if they were decieved.  When are you going to start doing the things that Jesus did and walk the way that Jesus walked (sinless, etc.)?

Good point.

So are you also denying yourself and taking up your cross daily? (Luke 9:23) Are you losing your life for Jesus? (Luke 9:24) Are you giving up everything you have? (Luke 14:33) Are you hating your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sister? (Luke 14:26) Are you hating your own life? (John 12:25) Do you hate money? (Matthew 6:24) Do you love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? Are you being crucified with Christ? (Galatians 2:20) Are you suffering in your body to be done with sin? (1 Peter 4:1)

All this business about being "sinless" for a month or two weeks or whatever, is pretty worthless unless you're doing the very basic stuff that Jesus requires just for us to be one of His disciples.

love in Christ,

Malcolm

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Hobart,

Thanks for your reply.
I think we are in agreement on this subject.
Let us all walk in our spirit and not in our flesh.

A friend and brother of mine once told me that when we walk in the flesh, we are in a sense hanging a veil between our self and the Spirit within. This veil was represented by the veil that seperated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple.
Christ has torn down the veil by His death but we erct it again when we choose to walk in the flesh. God is still in our life, but we are veiled from Him unable to enjoy His blessings due to our sin.
Repentance turns us back to Him and tears down the veil, the veil of flesh that seperates us from Him.

Just a thought.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thanks to all for the discussion. Especially Mike.
I think some have missed the point though. I am not talking about how long you can go without sinning or even about commiting sins. Look at what John said about the sin question:

1Jo 2:
15 Love not the world, nor the things in the world. If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him;
16 because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing, and its lust, but he that does the will of God abides for eternity.



We are not talking about resisting the desire to sin. It goes without saying that we should not commit adultery or murder. That is mere legalism which is a waste of time. We are talking about totatlly eradicating and overcoming the very lusts that lead us to want to do these things. John is not merely saying we should not commit these things, we should not even want to do them! If the "world" (as described in verse 16 above) is "lust"... then we cannot even do that! To never sin again means to never lust.
This is the meaning of my posts.

1 John 5
4 For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith.

Hobie

 

[SnuP]

I know when I posted that I lived sinless for at least three months that I did not tell how this was acomplished.  At the time I only wanted to show that it was a real possibility and not just a belief.  The thruth is that during that time I was completely dedicated to seeking God with all of my heart.  I wanted Him badly.  The result was that I did not sin.

The purpose wasn't to live without sin, that was rust a bennifit.  The purpose was to touch God, and remain there, for as long as I could hold on.

Eventually God began to show me that there were areas in my life that needed to be cleaned up.  I accually became discuraged because some of those seemed insurmounable.  But by His grace He has brought and continues to bring healing to the wounds of my heart.  I am much stronger now than I was before and my relationship with God has grown significantly.  Praise be to the Most High, creator of heaven and earth and adopter of wayward children.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear SnuP,

I wasn't there with you those three sinless weeks, so I cannot address your specific experience. But I can address what seems to be the sticking point in this discussion.

There are those who count sins like a legalist, like one of the ten commandements broken counts as a sin. And therefore if they don't break one of those, they haven't sinned. They walk in darkness though because they fail to see that how they treat others is not always the way they wanted to be treated. In otherwords, some people claim to be sinless when they in fact are not. Now like i said SnuP, I am NOT addressing you or your personal experience, BUT instead I am addressing other people who I have first hand knowledge of.

The point is, that ignorance is not neccesarily a defense against sin. By not thinking of others, we commit sin, even if we don't realize it. In this sense we miss opportunities to love others. It happens. It happens to all of us. In that sense we are not sinless, even though at times we do walk without sin. So whenever someone boasts about their sinlessness, it raises a big question mark for some people. They are very sceptical of such claims. Indeed I see very little reason for any of us to make such claims.

Better put is like this: as we walk closer to Jesus, we walk further from what we once were. But when a person claims they have already reached a sinless state, one wonders why such a person might say they are stronger now than they were before, when in the before they claimed sinlessness.

Likewise if there are areas in ones life that needs cleaned up, then either their walk in sinlessness seems like either a legalistic obedience, or they misunderstand what sinlessness is.

Now SnuP, you have been freed from the law and are no longer subject to its rules and regulations. That is you are freed from it as it being a source of moral control over your life unless of course you submit yourself unto it. So if you are boasting that you obeyed the law for those three weeks, then so what?

But if you are not saying that, then I do not understand what you are saying, or why you are saying it. You seem to be speaking about a strange religous experience [to touch God and remain there as long as I could hold on], when God is always there with you, ALWAYS!

Grow in His grace and remember He is holding on to you, and will for as long as forever is.

in Him,
mike

 

[SnuP]

I'm talking about sonship.

It is not enough for me to know about God, or to be able to talk to Him, to be able to call Him father, or to experience His presence.  I want to experience His fathering, to know Him as Father, my father, on a deeper level than I know my earthly father.  This is what I was looking for.  And that is the relationship that I started.

Not just being a christian, a follower of Christ, but to be a son, to be one with God. 

No sin can remain in the presence of God.  And that is were I was.  Walking and talking with God.  But as I said this was just the beginning.  I personally had not reached sinlessness, but never the less I was seeking after the Spirit so I was by virtue of the seeking, sinless.  I was able to share love freely and operate in gifts that I didn't know I had.  I was experiencing the beginning of a relationship that goes beyond "Yes sir!",  "No sir!".  I was experiencing substance.

I am stronger now in my faith, my understanding of the word, my trust of God, and my relationship with Him.

The sin that ended this period of time was pride.  But I have been back to that place of intimacy many times, and so my relationship has continued to grow, as does my love for Him.  And He keeps showing me myself. 

"More of You and less of me."

 

[SnuP]

I was experiencing God in a way that "produced fruit in keeping with repentence".

Matthew 3:8

 

[mjwhite]

Dear SnuP,

I am sure you had a wonderfu experience, it sure sounds like it.

But you say l WAS experiencing God in a way that "produced fruit in keeping with repentance"[/i] [emphasis mine] and i am puzzled by that. You seem to be speaking about three PAST weeks where you experienced God in a special way.

I am puzzled because I do not understand why you are not walking with God NOW in a way that produces fruits in keeping with repentance? To me, Christianity is a life long walk with God, experiencing the sonship, returning fruit back to Him in love.

Maybe we are just miscommunicating, saying the same things in different ways. I simply don't understand what you are saying and I am trying to, so help me out here. Thanks.

In His love,
mike

 

[SnuP]

the key to that phrase is keeping. 

I believe that there is a place in Christ where you live with an attitude of the heart that ramains in proper position to God.  That is to say, always having a repentent heart, a heart that is continuely turning away from self and selfish desires.  "Keeping with repentence" is, to me, an attitude not an action.  It is knowing your real self, but chasing God.  A humble heart.  Being in Christ and following after the Spirit.

I said that the sin that broke my three month comunion with God was pride.  I could not maintain the attitude of "keeping with repentence" and be proud of my self at the same time.  These things oppose one another.  Darkness and light.  My focas now is removing the hurts and wounds that keep me from going even deeper in Christ.  Because I am wreasling with my flesh I struggle at times and move in and out of the secret place, under the shadow of the Almighty.  Acually, here lately it seems that I'm more out then in. 

Hurt, wounds, bitterness, pride, these things are hard to get rid of because it seems that we humans love them.  Isn't that twisted.  But for me to get even more of God I must love Him even more then these.  The truth is that we all struggle with these, but most christians ignore trying to remove them and just sweep them under a rug.  I could do that too, but then I could not get to the deepest levels in Christ, and my heart would not always be completely open to the Father's love.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear SnuP,

It is faith that overcomes these things in our lives. By trusting the one who is trustworthy, the Designer and Creator, we can achieve victory over these hurts and wounds. We need to remember who we are and what we were created for: as children of God to fellowship with Him.

And I agree with you, for sometimes just finding out what is really wrong is a struggle in itself. But know this, as we seek God, He will reveal these secrets to us at the right time, in His time, so that we grow and mature in Him. Once they are revealed, they become a whole lot easier to overcome.

That is why the Spirit within intercedes for us, with groans too deep for words, helping us with our weaknesses when we do not know how to pray as we should. He intercedes for according to the will of the Lord and he leads us into the paths of righteousness.

So always trust the Lord.

In Him,
mike

 

[LouisBooth]

snup...

"So who here walks as Jesus walks? "

Everyone that is a christian does. Again, like I said, I'm just being a doubting thomas at this time. Better to err on the side of caution then sin on the side of leaping before you look. That's just my policy. I do not think anyone in this world can go without sinning, for its not just an action, but throughts also. For me, another telling this is for you to bring it up as a defence of a point you're trying to make. The period of time in my mind is something that can't be documented unless I can speak to someone that you live with or something of that nature. As long as you are here on earth you will sin. That's a fact of life christian or not. if you're repenting and having a repentant heart, you're sinning and still sinful. So again, I can't choose to believe you based on what you have told me here. Paul couldn't do it, peter couldn't either...can you or I? Maybe, but I haven't seen it done yet.

 

[SnuP]

Accually Christians don't walk as Jesus walked.

He saw the fathers will at all times and always followed it.  He never sinned.  He always did exactly what He preached.  He never wrongfully judged someone, He never judged anyone.  He never missed a step or missed God.  he always said exactly the right thing.  He never doubted.  He never feared.  He had perfect love and perfect faith.  He never did His own will.  He never got anger when He didn't get His way.  He forsuke everything to do what the father wanted.

So you really think that everyone that is a Christian does all of this the way that Jesus did?

I know better.

 

[LouisBooth]

"So you really think that everyone that is a Christian does all of this the way that Jesus did?"

YOu said you did it for 3 months thats why I don't believe you.