25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

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SavedByGrace3

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A Little History about me.

I was saved in 1971 at the age of 17, and became a part of what is commonly called "the faith movement" in the mid 70s. I began teaching about faith, healing, prayer, confession, gifts of the Spirit (and spirit) in 1980, and have been learning and teaching ever since. In 1992 I started debating with atheists and faith critics on the old AOL when it had a open debate area, and have been active in this ever since. I have likely heard it all at one time or another. In 1994 I started sending out lessons on a mail distribution list on the topics of foundational truth, How to Prophesy, and How to never sin again. In 1995, I started a web site that incorporated the years of teaching and debating into an online bible school which has been used by thousands of students.

I would like to use this thread to share some of this information with those interested, perhaps clear up some things, and maybe get some feedback. There has been a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about what faith people believe and teach. If you have only listened to the critics, then I promise you that you have been mislead about what the average faith person believes.

While I have studied all or most of the material put out by Kenyon, Hagin, the Copelands, Osborn, Capps, and others, I cannot and will not try and defend or answer for what they teach. I differ with each of them in a number of ways. I can only answer for myself. I have already entered a number of debates here at Christian Forums, and have already made some friends, and bumped with a few heads. While others are welcome to post in this thread to the pro and con: I can and will only answer for myself and those posts which I make.

I will try to start the series today if I can.
 

SavedByGrace3

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Why Do Some In The Church Miss The Faith Message?

There is a fundamental difference in our concept of what God is really like.

Because people do not know what He is like, they find it difficult to know what His will is. I think it is accurate to say that his will is a reflection of His nature. He does not do or will things that are outside of His nature.



There is a religious idea floating around that says God is so beyond our comprehension that His ways cannot be understood by mere men. Hence, His will cannot be determined by a knowledge of His nature. Some think that an all loving all powerful God could also put sickness on people to achieve some higher purpose. As earthly fathers it is inconceivable that we would even consider putting cancer or AIDS on our children regardless of how serious the lesson we desire to teach them. Yet some ascribe this very activity to our heavenly Father!They reason that "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts." They reason that the same love that saves the soul, will destroy the flesh to affect the soul. This despite the fact that the salvation of our soul was achieved by the sacrifice of Jesus, and not by the suffering of our flesh. There is no evidence that our physical suffering in any way improves our standing with God or state of righteousness. Any blessing or good thing we have comes from above, not from sickness, pain, or lack.



The question remains:

Does an all powerful God have to resort to the methods of the devil to accomplish His will? If so, then is He not admitting that the devil and his methods are correct? Of course I refuse this reasoning.

I contend that we can comprehend the love nature and actions of God, and that His ways are the same as, no... Better than our ways. Jesus came that He might show us the Father. I believe that He was successful! We see the nature, will, and power of God in the life, words, and ministry of Jesus. If we can know the nature of the Father, we can also reason what His will is. What is the will of a loving and merciful heavenly Father? It is the same... No, Better, than that of earthly father! Else the words of Jesus have no meaning:



Matt 7 (YLT)

7 `Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find;

knock, and it shall be opened to you;

8 for every one who is asking doth receive, and he who is

seeking doth find, and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.

9 `Or what man is of you, of whom, if his son may ask a loaf--a stone will he present to him?

10 and if a fish he may ask--a serpent will he present to him?

11 if, therefore, ye being evil, have known good gifts to give toyour children, how much more shall your Father who [is] in theheavens give good things to those asking him?

What good things do you want for your children?

His goodness factor is "how much more" than yours?

These words reveal that God displays His love toward His Children in the same way we display our love toward our children; with the exception that His love is greater, His gifts are better, and His power to give is greater. How can it be conceived that our heavenly Father (who is better in every way than earthly fathers) will not only fail to match our good gifts, but will actually deliver bad gifts? Which brings us back to Is 55, and the higher thoughts and ways of God.



Isaiah 55:9

For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



Is 55:9 is used by many to build God in the image of the devil. The devil is the author of sickness, disease, death, stealing, lies, and destruction. They will take their sufferings and the sufferings of others and claim them to be a manifestation of the "love of God" (despite the good gift declaration of Jesus). They reason that since God's thoughts and ways are higher than ourthoughts and ways, His higher thoughts and ways could therefore include thoughts and ways of of sickness! This reasoning bothered me for a long time, because it contradicted the image of God as being a loving merciful Father. I finally looked up the verses in their context, and the truth became clear:





Isai 55(KJS)

9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my wayshigher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, andreturneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bringforth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread tothe eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shallnot return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: themountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing,and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands.

13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead ofthe brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORDfor a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.



What do these verses reveal about the higher thoughts and higher ways of God?

They are contrary to the common understanding of verse 9. Look at the manifestation of God's higher ways and thoughts:

(1) rain and snow from the heavens that waters the earth and causes grain to grow and provisions of bread for men.(v10)

(2) In like manner, His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes that which He pleases, and PROSPERS the thing it is sent to.(v11)

(3) It brings joy, peace, and singing on the earth.(v12)

(4) INSTEAD of thorns, there shall come up a fir tree. INSTEAD of briers shall come up a myrtle tree. (v13)



Hence we see that the higher thoughts and higher ways of God are better than ours, NOT worse! There is nothing in the context of these verses that imply that His higher thoughts and ways would somehow lead Him to send briers, thorns, lack, sickness, suffering, sorrow, or crying into our lives; rather his higher thoughts and ways bring provisions, prosperity, joy, peace, singing, and good things.



I understand that there are examples of sickness and poverty in the word. But the rule of faith is that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, that He gives "how much more" than earthly fathers, that those who ask receive, that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick.This is the firstrule of faith and the starting point of any understanding that leads to a relationship with God:



Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Resignation Faith
Resignation faith is faith which "believes God is.." but falls short in believing that He is a "rewarder" of those that diligently seek Him. We commonly understand a "reward" as being a good thing, a blessing, and not an evil thing, or a curse. Resignation faith accepts the reality of God, but seems to have a misconception about His nature, and therefore His will. Very often this faith will say "I believe in God, and I know that whatever happens is for our own good, and we just have to believe...". This faith will attribute evil things like death, sickness, or other tragedies to God, while also attributing good things like healing, prosperity, and baptism in the Holy Spirit to the devil. This faith has a religious and sanctimonious sound to it, but is void of any real power to heal, deliver, or have prayers answered. This sort of faith accepts the testimony of the senses over the Word, and defines God by the things that are seen, rather than those which are not seen. Resignation faith walks by sight in that it will only believe those things seen and provable to the eye. Resignation faith is weak in that it will consider and go by the body, feelings, logic, and emotional testimony over the Word of God. It is questionable if resignation faith is faith at all; by the Biblical definition. Could resignation faith save? If a man were to come to God and say "Well, I know you are God, and you always know and do what is right, so, I am just going to trust you and rest in the knowledge that all is well and everything is going to be all right...". Would this save anyone? One of the main differences between resignation faith and overcoming faith is reliance on the Word. Overcoming faith is specific, where resignation faith is vague. Resignation faith is based on a superficial knowledge of God and His word. Resignation faith is unaware that God and His word are one, and that to believe God means to believe His word. Resignation faith puts forth an act of humbleness with a religious show of false spirituality; which is in truth a lack of confidence in the righteousness that God has given us by faith in Jesus. Overcoming faith comes boldly before the throne of grace, holding fast to the profession of faith, and boasting in the power of God to save, heal, and deliver.  
General Faith
General faith is faith which "believes that God is, and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him". This is the faith of the mass of Christianity. It differs from resignation faith in that it accepts that God is a rewarder... thought it may redefine the meaning of "reward". General faith is superior to resignation faith in that while it suffers with doubt, resignation faith suffers with unbelief. Unbelief differs from doubt in that doubt is a trap while unbelief is denial of the Word and nature of God. Doubt will see the goodness and mercy of God, but will fail to appropriate the promises of God due to ignorance, faulty reasoning, or overwhelming circumstances. Unbelief will deny the goodness and mercy of God (even with knowledge of the Word) and go so far as to attribute evil to God and good to the devil. Resignation faith walks by sight to such a degree that it seeks to define God's will and hence determine God's nature by their experiences rather than His revealed Word. Most dangerously:The man of Resignation faith creates God and the gospel in the image of their own unbelief. He will pray and determine God's will (and so His nature)by the outcome His prayer rather than the by His revealed Word. General faith will walk by sight when physical evidence is contrary to the Word. He knows that God is a God of love and compassion, but is not strong enough in his faith to stand up against physical evidence to the contrary.  
Overcoming Faith
Overcoming faith is the faith the overcomes the flesh, sin, satan, sickness, and poverty. It sees the will of the compassionate Father and will walk by faith and not by sight. It believes that God is, that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. It knows that God and His Word are one. To believe in God goes beyond just acknowledging His existence. To have faith in God is to have faith in His word. To claim to have faith in God and then to deny His Word is not overcoming faith, it is general faith at best, and resignation faith at worst. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word. When one "diligently seeks Him", he does it in the Word. It is impossible to seek Him and find Him outside of the revealed Word of God. The overcomer will side with God against all things that stand up against the Word. To side with God is to side with His Word. To side with sight against God is to missing God, for whatsoever is not faith is sin. (I am not talking about the kind of sin that affects your relationship with God, I am just talking about missing the Word). Overcoming faith knows that God has given us all things that pertain to live and Godliness. Overcoming faith knows that these things are settled in heaven, and that there is no need to utter a prayer for something that has already been given. Overcoming faith offers praise and thanksgiving to the Father for the things that He has done for us in Christ Jesus by the Gospel.
 
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LouisBooth

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"If you have only listened to the critics, then I promise you that you have been mislead about what the average faith person believes. "

This statement is key. I agree with you. The problem is that the TEACHERS and people leading this 'movement' are clearing in the wrong bibilically. If I the US doesn't agree with ANYTHING that the pres does, he gets impeached and they don't follow him anymore.

"As earthly fathers it is inconceivable that we would even consider putting cancer or AIDS on our children regardless of how serious the lesson we desire to teach them. Yet some ascribe this very activity to our heavenly Father"

So according to this you think all actions of God have to be able to be explained by men?

"There is no evidence that our physical suffering in any way improves our standing with God or state of righteousness. "

I can prove differently. Come meet some of my friends. I can introduce you to a parapelegic that would say differently, or a man that is crippled in one leg that would say it is a blessing to him because it kept him from going down the wrong path.

God has our DESTINATION in mind, not always weather the path is good or not. he is concerned with our obedience, not always our physical well being. Like the song says, "God I'll walk any path if you want me to."
 
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LouisBooth

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Now do I agree that God wants the best for us!! YES!!! but sometimes that best is painful. If you have cancer in your leg, better to loose the leg then die. The same is said for God. Better to be sick and strong in the Lord then health and far from him.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Now do I agree that God wants the best for us!! YES!!! but sometimes that best is painful. If you have cancer in your leg, better to loose the leg then die. The same is said for God. Better to be sick and strong in the Lord then health and far from him.

True enough Louis. The good news is, God is not asking you to choose. He does not say either or. There is no need to be sick while in your Father's house.
Do people get sick while wandering away? Yes indeed. But they don't have to wander. They can stay close to the Father and remain well. I will agree with you that is better to be sick, and even die physically and be with the Lord than to fall away from the Lord and be lost forever. This is in essence what Paul told the Corinthian fornicator in 1 Cor 5:

1Co 5
:1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
:2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 


This man was goin to be "delievered over to satan and" have his "flesh destroyed", "so that the spirit be saved". Ugly indeed... but better than being eternally lost.  

 
But the highest and best of God is to be well in spirit soul and body. It was better that this man not sin. There is evidence in 2 Corin that he repented.( 2Cor 2:5-11 )

This is not to say that all who sick have sinned. Sometimes a cold is just a cold...

  
 
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LouisBooth

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"He does not say either or"

Yes, he does sometimes. You didn't read my whole post.

"They can stay close to the Father and remain well. "

Spirtually yes, physically, not nessisarlily.

"But the highest and best of God is to be well in spirit soul and body. It was better that this man not sin. There is evidence in 2 Corin that he repented.( 2Cor 2:5-11 ) "

that's total speculation. There is no biblical basis to say this.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The writer of Hebrews exhorts us to "hold fast to the profession of our faith".

Hebrews 10 
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
 

To say:
"He is in charge of everything and all we have to do (or can do) is trust Him, through good or bad."
is not really a profession of faith. It is a devotional resignation to the inevitable that assumes that whatever comes must be of God; and as long as we don't bad mouth or question, then that is "faith"  and being "faithful." 

The Difference Between Revelation Knowledge and Walking by Faith.

Error has arisen because some have confused "revelation knowledge" and walking by faith.

We know that we are to walk by faith and not by sight.

2 Cor 5 7 
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)


Walking by faith means to profess (confess) the same things that we have in our logosystem. (logosystem is a term I use to describe the contents of you spirit knowledge)
Revelation knowledge is the process by which material is added to our logosystem. It can be said that walking by faith is what you do after you have received the revelation knowledge into your spirit. Attempting to "walk by faith" without revelation knowledge is like trying to think without words. Until you receive revelation, you cannot walk by it. This distinction is important as it is the answer to the failure of many who have attempted to step beyond the bounds of their actual development. It is commendable that we proclaim the Word to be true even when there is physical evidence to the contrary. But unless we have the revelation in our spirits which is the "stuff" of our faith, we cannot (by definition) walk by faith. You cannot have faith unless you have revelation, and strictly speaking you cannot walk by faith that you do not have. Attempting to walk by faith when that faith (revealed knowledge) is not there is doomed to failure. 

Most commonly this error is seen when people will say "I am healed because the word says I am". The word here meaning the written word of God. Again, it is commendable that they do not take sides against the word of God, but the manifestation will not take place until that which is recorded in the written word is revealed into the heart by the process we call "revelation knowledge". The written word is not believed until it is inserted into the spirit.

Many are in the same boat as the desperate father of the demonized child of Mark 9.

Mark 9 
23: Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 
24: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Some in this day would take the words of Jesus as criticism or even condemnation, and so miss the important truth. Jesus was not telling the man to try harder to believe. He was simply stating a fact concerning the operation of faith in our lives. The man replied "Lord I believe.". The man honestly thought he believed. If he had believed, the child would have been delivered. There is no condemnation in the words of Jesus.This is one of the most difficult things to get across to those seeking to understand the operation of faith. 

Return again to Romans 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I use a slight paraphrase of Romans 10:17 when teaching about revelation knowledge:

"Belief comes by being spiritually aware of truth, spiritual awareness of the truth is achieved by the reception of a spoken word from Christ"

We know that "head knowledge" of the Bible is not faith. I have met folks with ThDs who did not seem to have the least bit of spiritual revelation. I have met others who could quote whole passages from the Holy Scriptures and yet the life was missing in it. We call this "mental assent", or the knowledge of the natural man. This is the knowledge stored in the mind (soul). But we want in to be in the spirit! It is not faith unless we have the revelation in the spirit. This is one reason why some miss faith. They memorize all the right verses and say all the right things. But since the Word is not in their heart, it is not effectual. I like John 6:63

John 6: 
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


A surface reading of this verse might cause you to think "ya, the words of Jesus were alive and spiritual. The spirit is alive and the body is dead." But this is not what He is saying. Again with my paraphrase:

"It is the spirit (spoken word) that quickenth things, the flesh (spoken word) does not (cause) anything (to) profit. The words that I speak unto you are the spirit spoken kind, and they bring things to life."

When you ask about receiving "extra-biblical revelatory knowledge" I am sure you know that you are tipping over some peoples soup. They want to say you are adding something to the Word. But of course this is not what we mean by "revelation knowledge". By revelation knowledge we mean the Spirit of God "revealing" truth into our hearts. The content of this truth is the same as the scriptures. The difference is not the content but the source and the target. The source is the Spirit of Truth and the target is our spirit. Once this truth is inserted into our spirit (the process we call "revelation") it becomes the "stuff" or content of our faith. It is then that we "believe" in our heart. 

 
 
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Ben johnson

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The question that occurs to me, is "Do they have faith in GOD, or faith in FAITH?" Many in the "faith-movement" have very skewed ideas about God and our relationship to him. Not-a-few of them believe "we are as LITTLE GODS". I myself heard Robert Schuler, one Sunday morning on national TV, say: "Some say that for Jesus to be fully God, He had to first become Human. I think they have it backwards! For US to be HUMAN, we first have to become GOD! The KINGDOM of GOD is WITHIN!

Kenneth Hagin and many boldly proclaim, "Filled with the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues". Yet 1Cor12:30 (all do NOT speak with tongues, DO they!) combined with 14:2 (both use the same exact Greek word, clearly conveying that PRIVATE TONGUES will not manifest for EVERYONE) show that a Christian may be just-as-saved whether he tongues or not. Indeed, if you read chapters 12-14 with the idea that Corinth was immature, and felt superior BECAUSE they tongued, then the passage presents itself very much as a REBUKE BY PAUL! "Guys, GROW UP!!!" (verse 14:20)

Rather than focus on the gifts, why not focus instead on the GIVER. "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these THINGS shall be added unto you..."

:)

BTW, I highly recommend Hank Hannegraph's website, and all of the articles presented there. Go to the "free search" and enter "hinn", and read the interesting articles.

http://www.equip.org
 
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LouisBooth

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"The man honestly thought he believed. If he had believed, the child would have been delivered."

No..funny how you didn't look at what Jesus said to his disciplines..He DIDN'T say that they didn't have faith..he said it ONLY comes out by prayer. Please read the whole passage..

In John 6 the "words" he is refering to is that of the communion. Please take the passage in context. Good post though, other then these 2 things I liked it.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Paul and Revelation Knowledge

The two kinds of knowledge are defined according to their source; one the natural (senses), the other the spiritual (the Word of God through the spirit).

My favorite passage describing Revelation Knowledge is found in 1 Corinthians 2;

1 Corinthians 2: 
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

Very often that first verse is used in an incorrect context, saying; "we do not know what God has in store for us". But this is not what it is saying. The emphasis is on the fact that "eye that not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man". The point being that we do not receive this information into our hearts via the senses. The next verse points out that this info does enter our hearts, but only by way of the Spirit of Truth. This is revelation knowledge.

Faith is of the heart. That is the spirit. From verses 8-10 of Rom 10.

Rom 10
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


"...with the heart man believes..." "...the word is nigh thee.... and in thy heart..."

Numerous other scriptures could be related that indicate that "belief" is a spiritual matter. Not the least of which is Gal 5:22 "...the fruit of the spirit.... is faith...".

"Faith" and "believe" are the same word in the Greek: "pistis". They are interchangeable. So in regards to the subject at hand (revelation knowledge), the process of believing is the process of getting the Word into the heart. How does the Word enter the heart? It is evident that just having the word pass through the ears does not cause the word to enter into your heart, and so be believed. Look at the experence of Peter:

Matt16: 
15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 
16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 
17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Even though Peter heard the words spoken by flesh and blood, the actual "believing" came as a result of the Father revealing the words into Peter's heart. The implication is that if the Father had not revealed this into Peter, He would not have believed regardless of how many times he heard the words with his ears. 

Roman 10 (cont) 
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


A foundational scripture for the believer. "...the same Lord over all.." Jesus is Lord over all. As Acts 3:36 states "..God has made.... Jesus to be both Lord and Christ.."

Jesus is Lord by decree of God. He was not made Lord of just those who believe. We do not make Him Lord by force of will or acceptance. He is already "...Lord of all..." by the will and pronouncement of God. There is nothing anyone from heaven, earth, or hell can do to prevent Him from holding that position over them. Paul goes on to describe what our action should be: "...the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him..". Our reaction to the Gospel is to call on the name of the one who God has made Lord us. Jesus is the Lord of each and every man woman and child alive, and we receive mercy when we call on His name. Only He has the authority to deliver us from the sins and sin we are lost in. Paul then quotes Joel 2 for substantiation:

Romans 10 (cont) 
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


The way to get people saved, and the way they are saved, is to first make them aware of their need for salvation, and then make them aware that God has made Jesus Lord of all, and that if they will call on His name He will save them. As the scripture says, people are saved when they simply "call on the name of the Lord". How do they find out His name:

Romans 10 (cont) 
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Very specific wording here. I overlooked the use of the word "preacher" here by Paul. A preacher is someone who is speaking under the anointing. We have ideas about what "preachers" are, but I think the defining point is that a preacher is someone who is speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit; who is the Spirit of Truth. Of course this does not have to be someone called to the ministry since we all have been given the Holy Spirit and we all can speak under the anointing. But it is important to understand the need for the presence of the Spirit of Truth in the believing process. It is the Spirit that makes these things real in our hearts. This is "revelation knowledge".

Romans 10(cont) 
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


Here is the pivotal point in this passage. Here we have people who have heard the message (with their ears and minds), and yet (for whatever reason ) did not receive the revelation of it. The words did not go into their heart and they did not believe. The complete quote from Isaiah says:

Isaiah 53 
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?


This question is from a passage where Isaiah also states:

Isaiah 52 
10: The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.


The answer to the question is that He has made bare His holy arm in the eyes of _all_ the nations. Even though it has been presented to billions, not all of them have had it "revealed" to them in their hearts, and so not all have "believed". Simple "hearing" of the ears does not save. The words going into ears and mind does not cause one to believe. There are two kinds of hearing. One of the senses, one of the Spirit. Which (finally) brings us to the verse in question:

Romans 10 (cont) 17: 
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


This is a strange wording until you understand the principle of revelation knowledge. The Greek word for faith is "pistis". The same word is translated "believed" in verse 14. (Nestle - Marshall has "word of Christ"). The verse does not say "faith comes by hearing the word of God". Believing is more than just hearing words. It is deeper and is of the spirit. The Greek word for "word" is "rhema". It is almost always used in connection with the actual speaking or saying of the words. Look at the verse with this understanding:

"So then belief cometh by hearing, and hearing by a spoken word of God"

IOWs, your spirit (that which believes) does not "hear" and so "believe" unless the word is spoken into your heart by God. The words of the preacher may pass through your ears and even occupy your mind, but they do not enter your spirit and become the stuff of faith unless God speaks the words into your heart. It is therefore evident that the ability of your spirit to "hear" and so "believe" is not inherent in itself, but is governed by the speaker, or the source, which is God.Your spirit is faith-deaf unless the Spirit of God speaks to it. Hearing comes by an action of God, namely His speaking to your spirit. Hearing comes not by spiritually listening, but by God speaking to you. This is what I see in this passage and this verse.

So this is how I came to this paraphrase of Rom 10:17:

"Belief comes by being spiritually aware of truth, and being spiritually aware of truth is achieved by a spoken word of Christ"

I expand "hearing" to "spiritually aware of truth" because the passage is saying it is not sense knowledge "hearing" with the ears that causes one to believe. 

So as to the difference between sense knowledge and revelation knowledge:

Sense knowledge comes by your listening with physical ears and mental reasoning; Revelation Knowledge comes by God speaking words into your spirit. Sense knowledge is dependent on your listening, Revelation Knowledge is dependent on God speaking. You do not receive (and therefore believe) unless God speaks the words into your heart. Hence the message is open to the senses yet hidden to the spirit unless the Lord speaks the words to you. This is why it is "revelation" knowledge. It must be revealed to you. Paul tells the tale of the Jews who heard the sense knowledge words but did not receive the revelation knowledge. He spoke or "gave revelation knowledge" to the gentiles:
" I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." . 
That is the wonder of revelation knowledge. You receive it at the will and act of God rather than by your own efforts. You can ask for it (see Paul's prayer of Eph 1). But you cannot receive it by your efforts.

Rom 10 
18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 
19: But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 
20: But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 
21: But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Look at verse 20. They (gentiles) found God even thought they were not even seeking Him. They were not even trying to believe or receive anything. The gospel was preached and they received revelation. 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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LouisBooth totally agrees with ben on this issue and on the website.

Hank is a good watchdog.

As I said in the initial thread, I have no intention to try and answer for anyone but myself...
 
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LouisBooth

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"As I said in the initial thread, I have no intention to try and answer for anyone but myself..."

Okay :) Holbert, we are proably on the same side, except for a few points here and there. I think God uses everyting to further his glory and drawing us to him (christians and nonchristians alike). thus this includes sickness. As I quoted from a poem

"I asked for great strenght that I might accomplish great things and I was given infirmary that I might humbly obey.."

Along with this was the last line of the poem...and I believe it clashes very heavily with the "faith" movement...

" I asked for all things that I might enjoy life, I was given life that I might enjoy ALL things."

In the context of the poem, all things means all situations. Sickness included. I'm sick I praise God for serving him through it. I might not get healed, but I don't care as long as I'm doing what God wants me to do.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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....The question that occurs to me, is "Do they have faith in GOD, or faith in FAITH?" Many in the "faith-movement"  etc etc etc....

Thanks for your comments Ben.. I am afraid I cannot answer for these people yea or nea. If you have a comment on something you see here, I would enjoy reading it. 

I can only say that I have faith in my legs to hold me up, my arms to pick up things, my eyes to see things, my ears to hear things etc... and I do not think that makes me a "god". This includes faith too. Feeling secure in the abilites God gives us is not a bad thing. It is completely normal and we all do it.

P.S.  I can tell you have read HHs book. That argument is straight from it. It was not really valid when he made it 10 years ago, and it is not valid now. But if you have any other comments, you are welcome.
 
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Andrew

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Hobart,

Enjoyed reading your posts. basically u know I'm in agreement with you and know what ya saying. (only thing i dont agree is that I dont believe a Christian can be eternally lost, but that's another topic altogether)

Revelation knowledge is interesting. I read a book called the Voice of God, which talks about this. I call it rhema word, or the stage when the word drops into your heart/spirit from your head.

You talked about diff types of faith. There's one you 'forgot' that my church believes is the foundation of all other types of 'faiths'. -- righteous faith. I think when the NT mentions faith, it usu has to do with faith to believe that you are perfectly righteous with God by the blood. U see, it's hard to have faith for other areas if this area is not settled first. IOW one cant move in faith if there's guilt/sin consciousness.put another way: It's easy to understnd why God wants to heal, protect and prosper once you know how right you are with him. Or how close He is to us, despite our failures.

so in my church, we get the righteous faith issue settled first, by preaching Christ & Christ crucified. Once a believer has that revelation, its extremely easy to get them to believe God wants to heal them, prosper them etc, becos it all fits into place.

anyway, good posts. :)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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How to Get Revelation Knowledge 
(Which is synonymous with saying "How to get faith".)

Your faith is directly proportional to, and a result of, the Word that the Holy Spirit has revealed into your spirit. Simple Bible study and Bible memorization does not produce faith. It is good, and of course it is needful for renewing the mind. But faith comes by revelation into your spirit by the Holy Spirit. Revelation is key toward the development of your reborn spirit and faith. 

Faith and spiritual growth is increased by interaction with the Spirit of God. Interaction with the Spirit of God is prayer. 

Let us look at a couple prayers that Paul prayed for those he loved:

Ephe 1: 
17 (KJS) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 
19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 


In this one short passage we see one of the greatest truths concerning spiritual growth and faith in the NT. We are going to grow spiritually and in faith with the reception of "a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him..". The passage implies that until you receive this spirit, your eyes are closed, and your understanding is darkened. The phrase ".. that you may know.." means a full experiential knowledge beyond a mere awareness. He wants you to "experience" the hope of His calling, and "experience" the the riches of His glory, and "experience" the exceeding greatness of His power, according to the working of His mighty power. And these things are experienced by your reception of the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. Here we see the connection between belief and experience. A study of Hebrews 6 shows that there are 6 doctrines and there are 5 "things (experiences) that accompany salvation". The "things that accompany salvation" occur in our lives immediately upon the reception of the spirit of revelation. 

This brings us to an area which I want you to simply read and think about. It involves the mechanics of spiritual growth and how faith is actually increased.  It is my belief that receiving a "spirit of wisdom and revelation" is not actually receiving the Holy Spirit again. You have already received the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of truth, and there is no need to receive Him again. The reception of a "spirit of wisdom and revelation" is receiving words into your spirit, because spirit spoken words are spirit. When God speaks words, they are alive, They are spirits with life in them. They are alive. These words are added to our spirits much like a limb is grafted onto a tree. You (your spirit) is alive, and the words that are being added to it are spirit and alive also. 

Look at this passage (paraphrased by me): 

John 6 
63: It is the spirit (spoken word) that makes things alive; flesh spoken words accomplish nothing. The words that I speak unto you are inspirited (they are spirit) and alive (living words).


And this:

Isai 55: 
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
 

The wording supports the idea that once spoken, these words have a life of their own. In the case of words being spoken to inanimate objects, the thought seems to be conveyed that the spoken words are spirits, that they enter into the inanimate object, and the object is "inspirited" by the words and the object is made to conform to the content of the words. 

It is not necessary for you to accept this approach in order for it to work. You can and will grow spiritually as you continue in your fellowship with God. 

Broken fellowship means leaving the Father's table. If you break fellowship, you will find your faith falls flat and your growth ceases. 

Other prayers of Paul:

Romans 1 
9: For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10: Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 
11: For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 
12: That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me
.

Colo 1: 
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
 

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Fellowship and Relationship

(This post actually deals with numerous issues including OSAS, two kinds of life, the difference between fellowship and relationship, and why Christians are sick and cannot receive their healing. They are all intertwined and so the post is a little long.)

A theological battle has been raging in the church for hundreds of years. This is the battle over the concept of the "security of the believer". Some call it "once saved, always saved". 

Many years ago, I worked the evening shift at a local plant. I would get off work after midnight, and because I had no vehicle, I would walk a mile home in the dark. It was during one of these walks that the Lord began to speak to me about the difference between relationship and fellowship. 

There are two kinds of life (and death) spoken of in the Bible. There is physical life (and death) , and spiritual life (and death) . Physical life is life in the body. When you die physically, your spirit leaves your body, for "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Spiritual death means you have the fallen nature of the devil in your spirit. All men are spiritually dead from the day they are born. When a person is born again, that old dead spirit is removed, and the living new spirit of Christ is placed in you!

There are two kinds of sin for the new testament Christian. There is "sin unto death", and "sin not unto death". The sin unto death is the sin "after the similitude of Adam", that causes one to die spiritually, and results in a loss of relationship with the Father. Sin not unto death is sin that does not cause you to die spiritually, but does cause you to lose fellowship, and may eventually result in a judgment against you, leading to physical death.

1 John 5 
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 

Let me paraphrase and emphasize these verses for clarities sake:

1 John 5 (Hobie paraphrase)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto (spiritual) death.


With this, you can see the two kinds of sin, life, and death being discussed.

The reason I am bringing this out, is to show you that you do not lose your eternal life with every sin you commit. All unrighteousness is sin, and has a price. But that price is not always spiritual death. Most sin is sin not unto spiritual death. This sort of sin causes a break in fellowship with God, but not relationship. To fellowship means to partake of the cup together. It means to share of food with each other at the same table. When you sin a sin not unto spiritual death, you remain born again but you will be out of fellowship with God, and not be able to partake of the benefits of His table. You must restore fellowship with Him at once. Failure to repent and restore fellowship can lead to mental and physical sickness, problems in your life and family, and even physical death! 

The above passage from 1 John shows that we should pray for our brother who we see has sinned a sin not unto spiritual  death. If we pray for Him, our intercession on his behalf can actually save him from physical death! But John goes on to say that we should not pray for the man who sins a sin unto spiritual death. To do so is a waste of time. The one who has sinned a sin unto spiritual death is spiritually dead, and beyond the reach of our prayers to restore him. He has cast off Jesus and God and denied the Gospel. He is a child of satan again, and we cannot overrule his decision by our prayers anymore than we could pray to have any sinner born again against their will.

Lets Look at a few more passages to bring out and confirm this truth further.

Look at what Paul said about the sowing of the flesh, and where we would reap the corruption:

Galatians 6 
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


"...he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.."

You are going to pay for unconfessed sins of the flesh by the corruption of your flesh. This is why John said to pray for those who you see sinning sins of the flesh. You can save them from that corruption. The words say that the Lord will "...give them life ...".(1 John 5:16) 

Look at another of Paul's references:

1 Corinthians 5 
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined} 
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
. 

Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...". Why? So "that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".!!! This man's spirit was still saved, but because he was in danger of eventually denying Christ in preference to his sin, it was better that he be delivered to satan; not for the destruction of his spirit, but for the destruction of his flesh. It would be better that he die physically while in a saved condition than to continue to live in, and be hardened by sin, and eventually deny the Lord. 

We see similar wording in to Timothy:

1 Timothy 1 
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


These men were actually into some sort of false doctrine, and were in the same danger as the above mentioned fornicator because of it. 

Look at something Jesus said:

Luke 13 
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Note that Jesus said these men were not sinners beyond anyone else. He also says that the tragedy they suffered was a result of their sin. He also said that if we do not repent of our sin, we could likewise perish. The "likewise" perish was physical death. Nothing is said about hell or the condition of their spirits. If fact, Jesus specifically says they were no worse than anyone else. It is conceivable that there may have been righteous men among them! But Jesus said that if we do not repent of our sin, we would suffer, and even lose our physical lives. "Ye shall all likewise perish", i.e. you will suffer physical death. Yes, there is a hell, and there will unfortunately be many in it. But not all sin condemns you to hell. Not all sin causes you to lose your spiritual life.

I am trying to bring you to the place where you see the love of the Father for you. The prodigal son who left his Father and ended up eating pig food never ceased to be his Father's son. When he finally repented and went home, the Father was waiting for him with open arms. When we sin, we leave the banqueting table of the Father and eat pigs food. Sin has it's own punishments. The Father waits for you, hunting your silhouette on the horizon. He is not angry with you, nor will He cast you out for your weakness. He waits for your return. (Jesus, however, may have a few words with you about your conduct toward Himself and the Father, if you will humble yourself and listen! This is the chastisement that you need if you are to learn how to conduct yourself in the household of God.)

I want you to understand that He is on your side. He wants you to be victorious and overcome. He is cheering you on, and moving at every opportunity you give Him to act on your behalf. His is not waiting with a big flyswatter, drawn back ready to smack you at the first sign of weakness. He is not against you. He is like any earthly father who watches his children grow up. They fall, and pick themselves up, only to fall again. The father is there to help them up and heal their wounds. But he cannot walk for them. He cannot learn the lessons for them. He is saddened when they fail. He is disappointed when they fall short. But he does not turn his back on them. He does not disown them when they need him the most. Our Heavenly Father is infinitely better than any earthly father. 

What does this have to do with overcoming sin and never sinning again? You need to understand that your Heavenly Father is on your side, even when you sin a sin not unto death. He is there ready to forgive and accept you back into fellowship with Him. He wants you seated at the table with Him where you belong! Sinning a sin not unto death breaks your fellowship, but does not break your relationship.

DO NOT LET FAILURE KEEP YOU AWAY FROM THE THRONE OF GRACE!

It is when you fail that you need Him the most!!!

Much of the teaching today has you running to the woods to hide like a servant who go caught with his hands in the coin box. It is when you sin that you need Him! It is when you sin that you have need of His mercy, not when you are righteous!

Hebrews 4:16 
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
 

He is telling you to come boldly unto the throne of grace when you have sinned! You do not need grace, mercy, and help when you are walking in the light of righteousness! This is the place of those who have sinned, and are in need of mercy and grace. This is a departure from common theology. Most teach that when you sin, you are lost, and cannot approach God. This is saying that not only can you approach, but you can approach BOLDLY! God is on your side, and wants you to come to Him when you fail. Do not hide your face from Him, which would be the natural thing to do. 

There are two things we are dealing with: relationship and fellowship. Sin not unto death breaks fellowship with God, and results in loss of "physical life" blessings. Sin unto death breaks relationship with God, and results in loss of eternal life. 

If you sin a sin not unto death, you should immediately repent and confess your sin. This restores your fellowship and restores your access to the "physical life" benefits. Realize that God is on your side, and wants you restored.

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The Will of God.


There is the unwritten, yet commonly held, 
doctrine of the irresistible will of God. 

First there is the idea that because God is omnipotent, there is no power in creation that is not of God.  
Next there is the idea that God has "everything under control". Because of this, people feel that everything that happens can be traced back to an act of, and therefore the "will of", and "power of" God.

Hence there is the false assumptions that: 

  • God's will is irresistible.
  • His will and power are linked, and therefore everything that occurs in our lives must be His will.
  • His will is automatically implemented in creation, and in our lives.

Which brings up some traps and errors.

There is the "all is God's will" trap:

"I am sick by the will of God." Which would of course would have to be true if God has all under control. If God has everything under control, then how could it be any other way?

"God took little Jimmy home..." We do not want to think anything else of poor jimmy... It is better to ascribe the horror to God with some faulty religious reasoning. 

"Granny was the greatest saint of God I have ever known, I do not know why God allowed her to have cancer." The only solution for those who hold to these theories is that sickness is the will of God. Surely, one so righteous and faithful as Granny could not be at fault or in error. It must have been God. Of course I sound a bit harsh here, but only because the circumstances are harsh. Sickness and death are terrible things. It is my desire illustrate the contradiction as cleary as possible.

There is the doubt/resignation trap:

"I need this Lord, IF it be according to your will..." If it does not happen, then we can just assume that it must not have been His will. 

This leaves no room for lack of faith on your part. Rather it assumes the integrity of your belief and attempts to define the nature and will of God by the fruit of your faith (or doubt!). 

"Why should I pray? if it is not His will, He will say no... if it is His will, it will happen anyway... He knows best, and I just believe He will do what is best for me..."

The error of the "general faith" theory is evident. It is an attempt to elevate "hope" to the position of faith. Faith is exact and specific. It knows what the will of God is, and believes it to be so in the face of contradictory circumstances and physical evidence. Hope is not sure what the will of God is, and can only wait and see by the results.

"I do not know what you want me to do Lord... I will pray your will be Done, and wait to see what happens."

Again, the prayer attempts to define the will of God by resulting experience, rather than by the Word of God. Here the "general faith" theorist attempts to define the will and therefore the nature of God by the fruit of his own faith(or doubt). "I did not receive, therefore it is not God's will for me to have it." Again, this assumes the belief and the integrity of the man, rather than the goodness and integrity of God. 

Oddly, the proponents of this thought claim that they are honoring the power and glory of God. In reality, they are declaring the infallibility of their own "belief" and "reason" at the expense of the declared goodness and mercy of God.

The statement of Jesus applies to these:

Mark 6:5 (YLT) 
and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on  a few infirm people having put hands he did heal [them];


What you do not believe inhibits the ability of God in your life. His ability in your life is directly proportional to your specific faith. Hence His will is not automatically implemented in your life by a "general faith".

In all this, we can only join with Jesus:

Mark 6:6 (ASV) 
And he marvelled because of their unbelief..."


and pray we do not fail by the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:11)

In all this there is a very evident truth. Even though we know that God is certainly all powerful, it is very evident that He is not directly controlling every event in your life and the lives of the people around you. He has delegated power and authority to His creation and to man. For instance, He created gravity. People fall off cliffs all the time. It would be a mistake to say that God pushed them off the cliffs and caused them to fall! It would also be grave error to say that God is directly responsible for all the sin, sickness, death, and destruction on the earth and that it is the will of God that all this takes place. There is power, energy, and mass in the creation which God put into effect on the day of creation. He also delivered some of His sovereignty over to us, and this is the source of our free will. We are not robots who are devoid of thought and decision making power. He gave us free will to do or not do His will. My great grandfather was a Deist. A Deist believes that everything in creation is a manifestation of the mind of God. In other words: what you see around you is God manifest. This error is close to what has permeated the modern Church and modern theology. What you see around you (the death, sickness, sin, and destruction) is not a manifestation of God, the power of God, or the will of God. If all this were the will and power of God, then why would we pray about anything? Why would we not just thank God for the wars, the millions of abortions, and the gross sin that we see? No, we must realize that not everything we see is a direct manifestation of the will and power of God. Much of what we see is a result of the fallen creation. Some of it is a result of ignorance. Some of it is a result of sin. Some of it is the devil. In each case, we can overcome these things by faith in the promises of God. We do not have to live a life of defeat and torment! Let us go on to believe the promises and honor the word of God!
 
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