2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Our teacher is the Holy Spirit, and I know from previous interaction, I have shared my heart, so that is where it must end.

There are two reasons to share, to encourage and to be a witness.
I have done both so I am happy. God bless you, and may you find His love dwelling in your heart as you serve Him and follow His will.

We always make Jesus and the way so mysterious, but it is always humbling ourselves, carrying our cross and listening to Him. But praise the Lord you know this already, as you do not grieve the Holy Spirit and you walk in His ways.

God bless you, and may you find the blessing in Him as I have found blessing in Him.

So your saying you still don't know?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Well, I am glad we have you around to show us the Lord got it wrong.

There is an obvious logic problem.

God promised Israel to bring them into the promised land.
Except it was their children and not that generation except for Joshua and Caleb

Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
Num 14:30

What was the guilt of Israel?

Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it.
Numbers 14:21-23

The Lord has not changed. He does not force His people to follow Him, but calls them. Why would the Lord not deal with people who claim to know Him but treat Him with contempt ever have His blessing or salvation?

 

[LightLoveHope]

So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Hebrews 3:1-19

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Heb 3:14

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 4:11

the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 5:14

It appears a people have arisen who not only cannot distinguish good from evil, encourage others to believe God has no desire or ability to deliver them from sin and to be able to walk in love from their hearts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Babies going to hell. Believers perishing. Unfortunate sayings from the Lord................could you imagine living in this garbage theology FreeGrace?

Well, participating on these forums seems to remove any need for one's imagination. I see this idiocy all the time.

Like I said, what a PIT we find ourselves in if we are not positive to His word.

So sad to see how badly people are deceived by the devil. He's doing his job well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is an obvious logic problem.

God promised Israel to bring them into the promised land.
Except it was their children and not that generation except for Joshua and Caleb

Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
Num 14:30

What was the guilt of Israel?

Failure in trusting God to get them there. That's the "unbelief" of Heb 4.

Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it.
Numbers 14:21-23

The Lord has not changed. He does not force His people to follow Him, but calls them.

This is true. And has nothing to do with losing salvation.

Why would the Lord not deal with people who claim to know Him but treat Him with contempt ever have His blessing or salvation?

That's the whole point. He DOES deal with His own children. The Bible is full of warnings of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), including physical death, for disobedience.

So, in spite of the typical default by Arminians that OSAS encourages and promotes sinful lifestyles, no one gets away with anything. The problem is when teachers teach OSAS without balancing it with God's painful discipline.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This is true. And has nothing to do with losing salvation.

This statement concerns me. The Apostles were very keen to emphasise we need to stay faithful to the end.

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Heb 3:14

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 4:11

It is easy to see how Gods people fail and find things hard. But when people lose faith and abandon Him rather than walking and seeking wisdom and guidance over struggles and failures, I see the divide.

The problem is we see each issue as all encompassing, and immovable, not realising it is us who can move and the issue resolved. Why do people drink? Unresolved disappointment, pain, trauma that is deadend by alcohol. So the issue is not drink but the driving force that creates the need. Remove the need, then alcohol loses its power. So often the links are ignored or the causes and the symptom is attempted to be repressed by discipline, which will always fail.

This is why our hearts are the key to our walk, and to abandon resolving our hearts is to abandon the Kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"This is true. And has nothing to do with losing salvation."

This statement concerns me. The Apostles were very keen to emphasise we need to stay faithful to the end.

What you don't seem to grasp is that the need to stay faithful to the end is NOT for salvation, but for reward. Why is that so difficult to believe or accept?

You know full well that you have NO verses that teach loss of salvation. And a number of very clearly worded verses that clearly state eternal security.

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Heb 3:14

"sharing in Christ" isn't salvation. It's fellowship, another term that Arminians seem unable to grasp.

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Heb 4:11

What is the "rest" of Hebrews? Eternal reward, not eternal salvation.

Are you aware that Heb 3:19 applies to Moses as well? Yet, Moses was at the transformation of Christ on the Mount of transfiguration. So don't tell me he didn't make it to heaven, even though he didn't make it into the promised land.

Proof that the "promised land" has nothing to do with salvation.

It is easy to see how Gods people fail and find things hard. But when people lose faith and abandon Him rather than walking and seeking wisdom and guidance over struggles and failures, I see the divide.

Of course believers fail. All the time. So how does that equate to loss of salvation. You can't prove your opinion and assumption.

This is why our hearts are the key to our walk, and to abandon resolving our hearts is to abandon the Kingdom.

The ONLY WAY to resolve our hearts is to follow the Bible's directions:
be filled with the Spirit Eph 5:18
walk by means of the Spirit Gal 5:16
STOP grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
STOP quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

Yet, you seem completely unaware of these 4 commands.

 

[Gr8Grace]

There is an obvious logic problem.

Without a doubt there is.

God promised Israel to bring them into the promised land.
Except it was their children and not that generation except for Joshua and Caleb

We can draw a lot of parallels between the promised land and eternal security.

Your saved, but because of your unbelief(john 10:28) , you won't cease from YOUR OWN work(Eph 2:9) and enter HIS rest.........His promise of eternal security.

The Lord has not changed. He does not force His people to follow Him, but calls them.

Why do keep bringing this up? The calvinist will argue for this.

The Lord doesn't force any of His children to follow Him. But he darn sure will encourage,rebuke,discipline His children.

Why would the Lord not deal with people who claim to know Him but treat Him with contempt

Again. He does. And many examples in his word show that it can be quite unpleasant.

Just not loss of salvation. John 10:28,John 5:24,Eph 2:8.

 

[Gr8Grace]

the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 5:14

It appears a people have arisen who not only cannot distinguish good from evil,

This is what FreeGrace and I have been trying to show you.

It's distinguishing Divine good from human good(evil.) And It takes advanced doctrine to be able to discern between the two.

encourage others to believe God has no desire or ability to deliver them from sin and to be able to walk in love from their hearts.

He has given us a perfect plan to walk in. Yours is the human good way. His is the divine way.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk in the Spirit.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What you don't seem to grasp is that the need to stay faithful to the end is NOT for salvation, but for reward. Why is that so difficult to believe or accept?

Put simply this is not what the apostles are saying.
It is because you have a distorted view of what it means to be in fellowship with God, one with the Son, sacrificial love displayed from an open heart because that is the way of life, the Kingdom and eternity.

God has never been a place of safety who has his favourites, rather we identify with Him through our hearts and behaviour, trusting that He will stand by us as we exalt Him and His ways.

It is easy to believe God is so other, we can never attain anything like His walk, and He rescues us from our lostness though we never truly know this. This is the gnostic divide between the flesh and the spirit, and many have pointed back to Augustine as the first person to introduce such doctrines into the church as a whole.

I am neither calvanist or armenian, but a mixture of the two positions, and put my emphasis on knowing Jesus and His walk.

I know what mental illness can do to people, and how we are in His hands and judgement always. But in knowing love and the cross we gain all the security we need to walk in His ways, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

He has given us a perfect plan to walk in. Yours is the human good way. His is the divine way.

Thank you for your blessing.
I do not recognise your language, because I have experienced what it means to grieve the Spirit. Life is actually quite hard to keep a focus on the right issues and walk in faith knowing His blessing.

Many times people have discovered they were mistaken in their leading. We often want God to take control, when God Himself has given us the responsibility to put His words into action, but that is always harder. It is always easier to believe God has this grander purpose for us, rather than seeing the very people we know, we are called to love and bless, no matter how much we actually dislike this and want something so much better.

So when I encourage others to learn how to love, if their response is this is not important or foundational, it is then I begin to wonder who are these people.

Joshua and Caleb found the same with the people of Israel.

But the whole assembly talked about stoning them.
Num 14:10

It is with such barbs and anger I am often opposed. It does not occur to the people that this very point testifies against them and their lack of purity and holiness and dwelling in Christ.

But this is the way the Lord teaches me as to the state of others and their hearts which are ridden with anger and guilt.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"What you don't seem to grasp is that the need to stay faithful to the end is NOT for salvation, but for reward. Why is that so difficult to believe or accept?"

Put simply this is not what the apostles are saying.

Actually, it is. If any of them thought one must stay faithful in order to stay or be saved, then they would be in direct opposition to what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28, the verse that you keep rejecting.

It is because you have a distorted view of what it means to be in fellowship with God

That is rich, coming from one who can't even explain what fellowship means, or how one establishes fellowship with the Lord.

I am neither calvanist or armenian, but a mixture of the two positions, and put my emphasis on knowing Jesus and His walk.

A concoction of confusion is a better description.

I know what mental illness can do to people, and how we are in His hands and judgement always. But in knowing love and the cross we gain all the security we need to walk in His ways, Amen.

Are you sharing from experience?

 

[JLHargus]

Why would you think that my view of John 10:28 deals with continuing physical life? That would be ludicrous. Of course "never perish" refers specifically to avoiding the "second death" or lake of fire as described in Revelation 20.

JL: Exactly in the world to come, which is after the resurrection one will never perish, but not in this life time. If we possessed eternal life as those who will never perish in this life time we would never die physically or spiritually.

[Mk10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.]

Do you understand what is being said here about receiving a 100fold?

JL: Yes, we shall receive an hundredfold in this life time. Do you understand what is being said about receiving in the world to come eternal life? It is in the world to come that we will never perish not in this life time.

[2Pt3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.]

(Strong’s g684 destroying, utter destruction of vessels a perishing, ruin, the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

JL: Exactly in the world to come, which is after the resurrection one will never perish, but not in this life time. If we possessed eternal life as those who will never perish in this life time we would never die physically or spiritually.

Jesus was very clear about the fact that whoever believes has eternal life (that is present tense, meaning they possess the gift of eternal life NOW, in this life).

Possessing the gift of eternal life does not mean that being in possession of the gift means that one will not die physically, for the Bible teaches that everyone is appointed to die physically, and then face judgment. Heb 9:27

 

[Gr8Grace]

Thank you for your blessing.

Your welcome. The principles of living the Christian way of life are very simple indeed. satan has just been a master at blinding believers on how to do it.

I do not recognise your language,

It comes straight from the bible.

because I have experienced what it means to grieve the Spirit.

But you just said you don't recognize the language?

Life is actually quite hard to keep a focus on the right issues and walk in faith knowing His blessing.

Well, you have fallen for the lie of the world. To live the Christian way of life is pretty simple.......even in difficult circumstances.
Philippians 4:11~~New American Standard Bible
Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

We often want God to take control, when God Himself has given us the responsibility to put His words into action, but that is always harder.

Well, if we put His word into action...........God does take control. Just that very few know how to put His word into action.

So when I encourage others to learn how to love, if their response is this is not important or foundational, it is then I begin to wonder who are these people.

As believers, our love and forgiveness comes from being filled with Spirit and walking in the Spirit. Otherwise our love is just some emotional gushey feeling.

Biblical love is agape/virtue love. Same idea with how we forgive others. We love and forgive unconditionally............because of virtue. We love and forgive unconditionally because of what is IN US...........Christ.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Jesus was very clear about the fact that whoever believes has eternal life (that is present tense, meaning they possess the gift of eternal life NOW, in this life).

Possessing the gift of eternal life does not mean that being in possession of the gift means that one will not die physically, for the Bible teaches that everyone is appointed to die physically, and then face judgment. Heb 9:27

It would be interesting to see him squirm around the question's of," So Jesus Christ didn't have eternal life?" " Why did Jesus physically die then?"

Jesus(his humanity) dying on the cross and us(humanity) dying physically is another blessing that the majority just doesn't see I guess.

I know you know this, But it seems NOBODY else does. If Jesus(His humanity) didn't physically die, we wouldn't die physically.......we would be stuck in this pitiful flesh FOREVER. His physical death, secured the fact that when we die..........we will have glorified bodies.

 

[JLHargus]

JL original post: How many times does one have to be a fornicator, to be unrighteous? How many times does one have to be an idolater to be unrighteous and not inherit the kingdom of God?

[/QUOTE=" Free Grace2, post: 73459256, member: 319176"] Doesn't matter. [/quote]

If it doesn’t matter why does the bible even mention those who commit sins of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God? Was the Holy Spirit just kidding or making it up? With your theology we don’t need a holy bible we just need a holy leaflet. Adam and Eve where created with eternal life yet when they sinned they lost it for themselves and all humanity. Eternal life is conditional on doing God’s will. Only after the resurrection will we never perish.

[Mk10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.]

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your welcome. The principles of living the Christian way of life are very simple indeed. satan has just been a master at blinding believers on how to do it.

Here is the simple problem.
Jesus calls and His sheep hear His voice and listen and follow.

I have come to see, it is really this simple. Yes many might be confused, be chasing after this and that, but His sheep know Him.

The Lord is the King, and His Kingdom is born in their souls. The sad truth is, as you try and excuse what and who you are, Jesus is declaring there are always those who hear Him.

In your view satan is bigger than God, and can blind Gods people. Gods people can never be blinded.

You sound like people who say we are chosen by God, before the beginning of time, yet we can choose not to believe. Either spiritual choice is real, or it is all fake.

I have a simple reality. God calls His people. As they grow and move closer to Him, they can turn away. Some do. God listens to His people, His nature is to take into account everything. He declares His reaction and then says, because you called and asked I will respond. This is how He declares it to Moses

"In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked."
Num 14:19-20

God is gracious, and works with our weaknesses, if we stay faithful to Him and move towards His will and ways. It is faith that keeps us, and faith that is counted as righteousness.

But you would throw out even this, and declare God is gracious to the wicked, unfaithful and unbelieving, while scripture declares they are the ones God judges and casts out. But then as you will not listen to God, you will not listen to me, but still I will testify, because it illuminates and brings praise to God, our Lord and saviour, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

When we hear God, who are we hearing?

The creator, the founder of everything, the decider of destinations, the judge, the maker. The fact that He hears is wonder enough.

People miss-use His name. But He hears everytime. Do you want this level of attention on yourself? The righteous, the Lord of all, He who judges with fairness and justice, who can weigh all the issues and know the right outcome?

Some want to take a certain set of words, and then declare another lost and empty because they see the words one way and not another.

It is the spirit of this approach that declares where the heart is. God listens, He gives wisdom, He is the teacher, so go to Him, let Him teach you.

I read a man declaring God expects us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. This is impossible because we are not God. But we can love our enemies as He does, which is the actually calling we are given. And we can do this because we know how lost in sin we once were, and how convinced we knew the "truth" yet did not acknowledge the need in our hearts or were prepared to bring it to the throne. And in our blindness and bias we did not know who to condemn and who to lift up and why.

So find the King, humble yourself and repent, open your hearts and He will come in and eat with you. Thank you Jesus, I am truly humbled by who your are and what you bring to us, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It would be interesting to see him squirm around the question's of," So Jesus Christ didn't have eternal life?" " Why did Jesus physically die then?"

Jesus(his humanity) dying on the cross and us(humanity) dying physically is another blessing that the majority just doesn't see I guess.

I know you know this, But it seems NOBODY else does. If Jesus(His humanity) didn't physically die, we wouldn't die physically.......we would be stuck in this pitiful flesh FOREVER. His physical death, secured the fact that when we die..........we will have glorified bodies.

Amen!