2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[JLHargus]

Then He says you have eternal life and will NEVER perish. He lied to you? John 10:28

No He is not lying to me.

 

[JLHargus]

And Humor us.

Did The Lord Jesus Christ have eternal life? Why did he physically die then?

JL: [Jn10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.]

Jn10:28=perish=apollymi=Strong’s g622.

[Lk13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!]

Lk13:33=perish=apollymi=Strongs g622

It seems Jesus is going to Jerusalem to perish.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So you don't consider yourself one of His sheep?

So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'
Luke 17:10

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Phil 3:10-11

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matt 5:5-7

It is not for me to claim something that I have already become, for my becoming is testimony enough.

I am a follower, it is for others to judge which fold they believe I am in.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Paul the apostle, who was a great light of Gods work in the heart of a man, still was not presumptious, and knew before God there is fear and trembling, and great love.

Though we know our walk with the Lord, we know how easy it is to get it all wrong.

One of the first lessons one learns is how deceitful our own hearts are, and how easily they claim something over which they have no rights.

So for us to claim eternal life, which can never perish, is to embrace the idea we can never get into a bad situation and fail. And I have seen brothers and sisters do this.

Jesus reassures us that He will save us, but in a sense this is a test of our hearts, do we love Him because of who He is or because of what He provides.

Jesus emphasises being exalted is our way, rather than claiming too much and being brought down. But for the proud and greedy, this is impossible for them to comprehend. God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A simple question was asked, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? .

Simple answer given, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.]

So you're going with avoidng adultery, killing, stealing, bearing false witness, defrauding others, and honoring your father and mother. Is that correct?

Is that how you seriously believe you will have eternal life and go to heaven?

Where does Jesus Christ fit into your religion? What did He do to save you, if all you need to do is avoid the 'biggies', sin-wise?

Why don't you grasp the fact that this so-called simple answer IS how one gets eternal life, then Jesus Christ wasted His time coming to earth, putting up with idiot human beings, and then dying for them in probably the worse way to die ever. Are you serious?

Have you read any of the NT? Seems you have not.

Here are some verses on how to be saved and how to have eternal life (same thing).

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

jAnd not a word about avoiding sin of any kind.

Now, don't make the mistake that sin has no consequences. They sure do.

Heb 12:11 teaches that God's discipline towards His children is PAINFUL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is the point. The one condition is not an easy to define condition.

So, what you're saying is that the Bible is unclear about how to be saved, how to have eternal life, how to get into heaven. Get serious.

I believe I can rock climb, except when I have to put my weight on a hold, I often doubt my ability to manage to balance all the forces.

Why in the world would you compare getting saved with your own ability in some dumb physical activity? There is no comparison.

So when you accept you are talking belief in Jesus, Jesus says this is expressed by obedience.

Again, you fail to provide any evidence for your opinions. Where is the Scripture that supposedly says this?

In fact, obedience is commanded of believers. Do you get the point here?

Jesus declares if we are to have His love, we need to listen and obey.

This is opposite of Scripture. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that He gave His Son, so that whosoever believes HAS eternal life and will NOT PERISH.

The Lord even says He is commited to listen. God will listen to us. The King of Kings will hear our voice.

And you'd better believe that He hears you EVERY TIME you reject His teaching in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is an interesting interaction.
To change ones position the argument or foundation has to move. If I come with obvious truth and reality to just repeat a sentence about one interpretation of a sentence meaning only that is not actually proving anything other than one believes that interpretation alone. Woooo, that was a real winner.

Yeah, this paragraph is a "real winner". woo woo. It doesn't make sense. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Who has "changed their position"? Not me, and not Gr8Grace. So, who then? You? Much of what you post is impossible to follow or understand.

I stand before the King. I hear Him.

And you don't believe Him.

And that is why I walk as I do. I follow, I listen and I have been taught.

From your posts, you have been taught by false teachers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Until I meet Him and He calls me one of His, I walk by faith.

Uh, "faith" in what, exactly? Surely not faith in His promise that you won't perish.

You exposed your LACK OF FAITH by your words "until I meet Him and He calls me one of His", to the question of "are you one of His sheep".

So, you have admitted that you don't even know if you are one of His sheep. Amazing.

That being so, then don't call yourself a Christian, because Christians are ALL His sheep. And only His sheep. So avoid that title at all costs.

And my faith is founded on the cross His love and the work He has done in my life.

What specifically is your faith in "on the cross"? Please explain.

And like all redeemed sinners, I could be wrong, and I could fail.

You ARE wrong. And everyone can fail.

If I fail then I will perish.

I see. So then, even though Jesus never mentioned that recipients have to succeed in order to never perish, you still believe that's a requirement or condition for never perishing.

Where do you get your ideas from? You said you have been taught. Who's been teaching you? I will surely avoid that person. They are a false teacher.

John 10:28 couldn't have been stated more clearly about eternal security, an idea you repeatedly reject.

As far as I know I listen to Jesus and follow Him, so as long as this remains true I will not perish.

Again, I see. Your faith is in your own ability to not fail, in order to be saved. You are a Pharisee, not a Christian. That's your title.

Jesus is declaring His love for me and His sheep.

So, are you something special, since you don't know if you are a sheep or not? Why do you say "for me and His sheep"? Sounds like 2 groups here; you as one group, and His sheep as another group.

He knows them and He will never let us go.

You are quite confused. You just stated that as long as you don't fail, you won't perish.

Now you're stating Jesus will never let you go.

So, which is it? Do you even know?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The divide He is describing in John 10:25 is people saying tell us who you are, but in truth they have already rejected Him, all they want is a charge of blasphemy.

Huh?? Here's the verse: Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

Did you read the context around that verse? Here's the immediately previous verse:
24 - The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

These were Jews that didn't believe that He was the Messiah. They were NOT believers.

And then Jesus made it crystal clear in v.26 - but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Then Jesus describes what His sheep DO. And there is nothing in v.27 that indicates what they DO makes them a sheep.

And v.28 is clear as can be. His sheep shall never perish.

Are you one of His sheep or not?

Jesus does not have to prove this to His sheep.

Jesus doesn't have to prove anything. But He proves His Deity all the time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JL Original post: [Gal5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.]



JL: What you miss is [1Jn3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.]

Not to be mean but since you asked me to reply to this post I will be quite frank. I didn’t reply before as I thought it not credible enough to waste my time. I can’t imagine anyone reading your post, would take it seriously.

[Eph5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.]

[1Cor6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.]

[Gal5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.]

[Mt13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.]

[2Pt3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.] (Strong’s g684 destroying, utter destruction of vessels a perishing, ruin, the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.)

[Rv21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.]

[Rv21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.]

Great tactic. Just ignore every point that has been made regarding a previous post of yours, and keep moving forward with more and more verses.

Until you deal with my responses, I'm going to do what you are now doing; I'm going to ignore any more of your verses. I've explained your verses from Scripture.

If you disagree with my explanation, then identify why and how my explanation is wrong.

In the meantime, I'm going to ignore any more of your verses. This isn't going to be a one sided discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely I consider myself as one of His sheep. But I am not so full of myself as to believe I can be unrighteous as a fornicator, idolater, adulterer, effeminate, abuser with mankind, and shall inherit the kingdom. If I do sin and repent and confess my sin I will be restored to grace.

This isn't clear. In John 10:28 Jesus said His sheep are given eternal life and shall never perish.

Why do you disagree with Jesus? What do you know that He didn't know?

Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So for us to claim eternal life, which can never perish, is to embrace the idea we can never get into a bad situation and fail.

Whoever taught you is a false teacher. Of course all believers are vulnerable to "bad situations" and failing. But you still can't find any verse that says we lose salvation or entrance into heaven based on failing or "bad situations".

Jesus reassures us that He will save us, but in a sense this is a test of our hearts, do we love Him because of who He is or because of what He provides.

No. This is more false teaching. Jesus reassures us that those He gives eternal life, which is at the moment of faith in Him, we shall never perish. Period.

You need to STOP rejecting what He taught.

Jesus emphasises being exalted is our way

No kidding. And guess what! Your view is exactly that; you've exalted your own way, by your "faith" in your own ability to not fail.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul the apostle, who was a great light of Gods work in the heart of a man, still was not presumptious, and knew before God there is fear and trembling, and great love.

Do you not understand what's behind "fear and trembling"? His painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That being so, then don't call yourself a Christian, because Christians are ALL His sheep. And only His sheep. So avoid that title at all costs.

I am sorry, presumption is a sin.
Your very words and attitude make me pause.
You say it is so simple to come to Christ, yet your sword chops most of the christian church to piecies saying they are going to hell and are legalists.

You then turn round and say all Christians are His sheep.
So with one hand you disown my faith and the other you give it back.

The apostles could not tell Judas would betray them.
Peter talks about false teachers who went out from the assembly, but until they did they appeared to be faithful brothers.

Paul talks about people having faith in vain, because they fall away.
I have had friends who called on Jesus and now deny Him.
Some I have prayed with and had fellowship with, yet have followed heretics and hold to heresy which causes in me confusion between my past blessing and their end.

I have been with people who would approve of Todd Bently, Bethel etc.
Some I have a heart for, some are just nuts.

So I am secure in my faith in Christ and the cross, and would count myself in His pen, yet I will also be cautious.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Whoever taught you is a false teacher

Jesus is my teacher. You are so quick to judgement and positions, you do not know the meaning of testing and caution.

And from your attitude I doubt you know the reality of Christ.
You want to be my teacher which is a failure to know Jesus, because He alone is our teacher, glory to His Name.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do you not understand what's behind "fear and trembling"? His painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

I am staggard at your approach.
We are mortal and God is the creator.

Simple things can make me fear and tremble. So God should shake me to my core, and I should never presume anything, but be careful to know whom I serve, as an unworthy servant, honouring the King of Life, Love and Salvation, the Lord of All.

It is His pleasure to raise us up to the place where He is, but until that day, I am where I am, and I am rejoicing that He should call such an unworthy sinner as me His friend, Amen.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It is not for me to claim something that I have already become, for my becoming is testimony enough.

Psalm 100:3~~New American Standard Bible
Know that the LORD Himself is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

Psalm 95:7~~New American Standard Bible
For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,

But we both know why you don't want to 'claim' to be His sheep. It makes an obvious and glaring contradiction in your theology.

His sheep NEVER perish.

 

[Gr8Grace]

No He is not lying to me.

Oh, ok. You just don't believe Him.

His sheep NEVER perish.John 10:28

 

[Gr8Grace]

I am sorry, presumption is a sin.
Your very words and attitude make me pause.

There is no presumption in it. Your doing your best to avoid calling yourself one of His sheep.

And just ponder on that a bit. Trying to avoid calling yourself one of His sheep? Amazing. It's one of the most wonderful things in this world to become one of his sheep and to proclaim it from the rooftops.

And your trying to avoid it to protect a false theology.

Are you one of His sheep?

Psalm 95:7~~New American Standard Bible
For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,

2 Cor 6:2~~New International Version
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

 

[Gr8Grace]

JL: [Jn10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.]

Jn10:28=perish=apollymi=Strong’s g622.

[Lk13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!]

Lk13:33=perish=apollymi=Strongs g622

It seems Jesus is going to Jerusalem to perish.

The critical question was, " Did the Lord Jesus Christ have eternal life?" Yes. He did/does. Yet He still perished physically.

So it is quite OBVIOUS that John 10:28 pertains to our eternal life/new creation/born-again human spirit.................that never perishes.
1 Pet 1:23~~New American Standard Bible
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God

 

[LightLoveHope]

There is no presumption in it. Your doing your best to avoid calling yourself one of His sheep.

You seem do not see what Jesus is saying.
Jesus did not go around saying, meet the Son of God, only one day, have all your diseases healed, never have to worry again about a tickly throat, line up, line up, come see the show.

He simply said follow me, come a listen to my words, my way, feel my heart, my intent my message. Then you will know who I am.

We are followers, and our message is based on who we are, not the labels we carry or what we say about ourselves. And our belief in what Jesus will do in the future does not change it. Jesus will save His people and keep those who listen and follow Him He will bring into the Kingdom.

So there is presumption on your part. There is so much presumption you believe you can rebel against all He stands for and become His enemy and you still will be saved. Korah felt like this and he was swallowed up by the ground. Ananias and Saphria felt like this and they died.

Paul, Peter, John, James counsel caution and testing, know the dangers and the blessing.

Now those who truly do not know the risks talk wildly and claim everything, which is exactly what you are doing.

I love the song, "You are the air that I breath". Thank you Jesus for your way and your truth.