2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"That being so, then don't call yourself a Christian, because Christians are ALL His sheep. And only His sheep. So avoid that title at all costs."

I am sorry, presumption is a sin.
Your very words and attitude make me pause.

I was hoping for that response.

You say it is so simple to come to Christ

So says Jesus Christ.

Matt 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

yet your sword chops most of the christian church to piecies saying they are going to hell and are legalists.

I've never even come close to saying such a stupid thing. Are you having trouble grasping my words that much?

You then turn round and say all Christians are His sheep.

Are you actually saying that there are Christians who are not His sheep? Where in the world do you get your information? Certainly not the Bible.

So with one hand you disown my faith and the other you give it back.

Look, many people call themselves "Christian" but have no idea what the Bible says about anything. Just look at the liberal mainline denominations. They have rejected evangelicalism in favor of "social justice" and working your way to heaven.

The apostles could not tell Judas would betray them.

So what?

Peter talks about false teachers who went out from the assembly, but until they did they appeared to be faithful brothers.

yep.

Paul talks about people having faith in vain, because they fall away.

No he didn't. Show me any verse where Paul said this.

I have had friends who called on Jesus and now deny Him.

They are rebellious children of God, just as there are rebellious children who denounce their own parents. Yes, believers can rebel. But they are still God's children, Christ's sheep.

I have been with people who would approve of Todd Bently, Bethel etc.
Some I have a heart for, some are just nuts.

Yes, you have made many references to some of the nuts you've had contact with.

So I am secure in my faith in Christ and the cross, and would count myself in His pen, yet I will also be cautious.

Cautious about what? Losing your salvation? How are you "secure in your faith" when you have already acknowledged that one must continue to be faithful to not perish.

That puts all the pressure and accountability on yourself. That makes you your own savior. That's YOUR belief, not what the Bible says.

I KNOW that I'm secure. Not because of anything I am supposed to do after placing my faith in Christ, but because of what He did. He gave me eternal life and SAYS that I shall never perish. That is why I AM SECURE.

Because of what He did for me. Not because of anything I may do for Him.

Your theology is exactly backward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus is my teacher.

No He's NOT. You don't even believe His very clear words in John 10:28. So don't try to kid me.

You are so quick to judgement and positions, you do not know the meaning of testing and caution.

You don't believe Jesus' teaching about eternal security.

And from your attitude I doubt you know the reality of Christ.

How hypocritical. You claim I am "so quick to judgment", yet here you are, doing exactly that to me. From all you've posted, your "reality" is not biblical, which I and Gr8Grace have been trying to point out to you.

You want to be my teacher which is a failure to know Jesus, because He alone is our teacher, glory to His Name.

If He is your teacher, and you really mean that, then believe the truth of John 10:28, instead of rejecting the truth of it.

You can't have it both ways.

He may be your Teacher, but you're surely not paying attention. Only learners pay attention. The day dreamers don't learn.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Do you not understand what's behind "fear and trembling"? His painful discipline, per Heb 12:11."

I am staggard at your approach.
We are mortal and God is the creator.

I am amazed at how little your comments are related to what I post. Do you really not understand the discipline of God towards His children? Are you really that lacking in biblical understanding?

 

[LightLoveHope]

No He's NOT. You don't even believe His very clear words in John 10:28. So don't try to kid me.

Hi Free,

Jesus says this
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
The greatest among you will be your servant.
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt 23:9-12

We are called to listen to and follow Jesus.
You appear want something else and desire to claim authority greater than Jesus himself.

Jesus loves those who obey Him. Jesus loves people who are grounded, motivated and walking in love. The two greatest commandments from which everything else comes is love God and love your neighbour.

Yet above these you would put security, your heart, and sin.

Have you not stopped to wonder that this is just wrong and the opposite of the gospel and the freedom Christ offers. And this security is vapour ware if Jesus will not honour it. Jesus honours repentant sinners brought to the cross, walking in love and faith.

His sheep are defined as those who listen to Him and follow Him. Whoever you are listening to it is not Jesus, and He will not honour and save sheep who dishonour Him.

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death
John 8:51

But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven
Matthew 10:33

Peter is a good example of this. But Peter kept the faith and repented and came back to Jesus.

It is like light and darkness. You hold Jesus will go into the darkness to bring back the rebellious sinners who have walked away and hate Him, which He declares the opposite, they will be judged.

Our hope and faith is in the light, and our life is dwelling in the light of His love, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How hypocritical. You claim I am "so quick to judgment", yet here you are, doing exactly that to me. From all you've posted, your "reality" is not biblical,

I know our divide, and I know the bridge, but you refuse to let your hearts be spoken to by the Lord.

Now I am not judging you, I am merely taking your words and saying what they mean.
There is no possibility of the things I share and dwell in my heart, are the foundation of my life which you reject, for there to be meaningful fellowship here.

And it is not because I am not willing, but as you stated, everything I share is irrelevant unless I hold your view of security. Funnily I have been in many different churches and praised the Lord and fellowshiped with people of many positions, but you are one of a few who would rather reject and exclude spiritual reality over your emphasis.

So if you are not with me, you are against me and my standing in the Lord. This is all 100% of your making. Dear Lord Jesus, help those who would listen to you, open their hearts and learn from you the way of the cross and love, to find life that is eternal and never ending through your word and your Holy Spirit, Amen

 

[LightLoveHope]

I was hoping for that response.

I realise something. When I listen to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, He emphasises certain things and ignores others. It is a two way conversation spoken over days, weeks, years, through His word, situations, fellowship, praise, worship, prayer.

You share like this is a cut out cardboard interaction, based on a few sentences which you latch on to like they define everything.

If I was to believe and walk like you do, I would become a 2d cut out believer, never really knowing what I was doing or why. You are so Holy Spirit fired, that in truth you junked the word of God, His commands, His love, His transformation, His example, His freedom, His delegation of authority, power and ministry to us.

All you have is a theology, a belief that sin dominates and drives everything, a belief that is just a belief without any action, and a conviction the cardboard cut out castle will not fall down. I see it all, but it is just meaningless to me.

To engage with you, I need to reduce my world down to the restricted, emotionally repressed and book like discussion of single words and how the world and eternity revolves on their tense, importance and timing, when there are 10,000 other things that if you actually look up will answer all these questions in time.

Paul put it that such disputes and arguments destroy the participants because they are not open hearted and end up wishing harm rather than blessing.

So God bless you, and I hope you can come into the 3d world of Christ and real love from the heart, and just learn how to love openly and with abandon, Amen.

 

[Gr8Grace]

All you have is a theology, a belief that sin dominates and drives everything, a belief that is just a belief without any action, and a conviction the cardboard cut out castle will not fall down.

You misrepresent so much........It's hard to believe you can follow a conversation with anyone.

Heck, your response to this will be something like:

Hey, we went out for ice cream yesterday also!

And by the way.........are you one of His sheep?

 

[Gr8Grace]

I am amazed at how little your comments are related to what I post.

Well, get ready for some more when you log on.

 

[JLB777]

You are amazingly dense. The red words that I just shared with you in my previous post refers to all your LIES.

You have NEVER addressed either post #1568 or #1703 both of which provided a full color coded explanation of both John 10:27 and 28.

What have you been waiting for? Or, have you finally come to the conclusion that you can't address either post because they totally refute your false man-made doctrines.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear and obey are given eternal life on the Day of Judgement.


Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"That being so, then don't call yourself a Christian, because Christians are ALL His sheep. And only His sheep. So avoid that title at all costs."

I was hoping for that response.


So says Jesus Christ.

Matt 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”


I've never even come close to saying such a stupid thing. Are you having trouble grasping my words that much?


Are you actually saying that there are Christians who are not His sheep? Where in the world do you get your information? Certainly not the Bible.


Look, many people call themselves "Christian" but have no idea what the Bible says about anything. Just look at the liberal mainline denominations. They have rejected evangelicalism in favor of "social justice" and working your way to heaven.


So what?


yep.


No he didn't. Show me any verse where Paul said this.


They are rebellious children of God, just as there are rebellious children who denounce their own parents. Yes, believers can rebel. But they are still God's children, Christ's sheep.


Yes, you have made many references to some of the nuts you've had contact with.


Cautious about what? Losing your salvation? How are you "secure in your faith" when you have already acknowledged that one must continue to be faithful to not perish.

That puts all the pressure and accountability on yourself. That makes you your own savior. That's YOUR belief, not what the Bible says.

I KNOW that I'm secure. Not because of anything I am supposed to do after placing my faith in Christ, but because of what He did. He gave me eternal life and SAYS that I shall never perish. That is why I AM SECURE.

Because of what He did for me. Not because of anything I may do for Him.

Your theology is exactly backward.

Where does 2 Thessalonians 2:12 mention eternal security?


that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12



Your whole thread misrepresents the Bible.



LOL.



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

You misrepresent so much........It's hard to believe you can follow a conversation with anyone.

Heck, your response to this will be something like:

Hey, we went out for ice cream yesterday also!

And by the way.........are you one of His sheep?

This shows one thing, a different mindset.
Subjects and how we think about them are layered and structured into different boxes. It is how we manage to communicate over complex issues using a few words when we have the same approach.

Once the boxes are moved around one person is talking about their conviction and revelation in Christ because of winning through a struggle, while the other talks about their battle with the enemy and how they need to be free of condemnation and getting to the right place.

Paul calls us to have the same attitude as Christ

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:5-7

Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11

agree together, to end your divisions, and to be united by the same mind and purpose.
1 Cor 1:10

So it is little wonder what I regard as core to my walk and heart, to another it is irrelevant and meaningless, unless I have the magic key that they hold. The trouble is this magic key to me means nothing, and it is the subjects close to my heart that mean everything.

If my heart speaks scripture, ie the very principles my heart expresses are those held in scripture and are in alignment with the Lords will, then we are one in purpose and direction. It is this goal I set of to make real many years ago. For what the mouth speaks the heart is full of.

For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Matt 12:34-36

 

[LightLoveHope]

No he didn't. Show me any verse where Paul said this.

Here is the problem. Do a search on the word vain in scripture

Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:2
you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain 1 Cor 15:58
we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2 Cor 6:1
for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. Gal 2:2

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb 3:14

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

 

[LightLoveHope]

If one takes Jesus seriously, everything He says has to be balanced.
And that is hard, because He proclaimed some very hard things.
They are hard because we are so far from Him.

But with a humble heart and a contrite spirit, everything is possible.
Often only when things are stripped away do we see the hold they had on us.

And the one subject in the heart, and how this functions.
It is here we have to change, be cleansed, set free and walking in the Spirit.

As soon as someone says, no their heart is desperately wicked and off limits to God, you know they have not begun to come to the cross and found the ultimate resolution to all needs.

Forgive from the heart.
Love with all our heart.
Love others as Christ has loved us.
Speak with the words the heart is full of.
Clean the heart with the blood of Christ.
Become like children, learning again the ways of life in Christ.
Be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Be one in mind and thought.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart Matt 18:35
To love him with all your heart Mark 12:33
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. John 15:12
For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. Matt 12:34
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water
Heb 10:22
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it
Mark 10:15
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Rom 12:2
that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Cor 1:10

Now to some this list would not even be read before it is dismissed.
Others will grudgingly read it but be basically in rebellion against its intent.
His sheep will read and understand this is Gods will for our lives.

If rebellion dwells in the heart over just the mention of these approaches, when Jesus comes it will be full blown. And it is this problem that identifies many as giving lip service to God while their hearts are far from Him.

And no matter how people think, the Lord knows, completely, without any ability for us to hide from Him. But He is just waiting, in the hope that you will hear, listen and turn to Him and come to Him for healing and reconciliation. Amen, Thank you Jesus.

 

[Gr8Grace]

This shows one thing, a different mindset.
Subjects and how we think about them are layered and structured into different boxes. It is how we manage to communicate over complex issues using a few words when we have the same approach.

Once the boxes are moved around one person is talking about their conviction and revelation in Christ because of winning through a struggle, while the other talks about their battle with the enemy and how they need to be free of condemnation and getting to the right place.

Paul calls us to have the same attitude as Christ

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:5-7

Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11

agree together, to end your divisions, and to be united by the same mind and purpose.
1 Cor 1:10

So it is little wonder what I regard as core to my walk and heart, to another it is irrelevant and meaningless, unless I have the magic key that they hold. The trouble is this magic key to me means nothing, and it is the subjects close to my heart that mean everything.

If my heart speaks scripture, ie the very principles my heart expresses are those held in scripture and are in alignment with the Lords will, then we are one in purpose and direction. It is this goal I set of to make real many years ago. For what the mouth speaks the heart is full of.

For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Matt 12:34-36

Can you, for once, just address some of our points? Please. None of this is relevant to my position.

I guessed you would respond with ice cream. And I guess, I shouldn't be surprised that you responded with magical boxes!

 

[Gr8Grace]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear and obey are given eternal life on the Day of Judgement.


Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.



JLB

"Given eternal life on the day of judgement?" At least your not trying to be a sneaky snake anymore.

Anyone who is His sheep(Your not one of His sheep?) He gives(Right now) eternal life.

1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

How big would one have to make "YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE" for you to understand this? Because it doesn't seem the clear statements of the Lord Jesus Christ is enough for you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are called to listen to and follow Jesus.

I find it rather curious how often you say this and never mention putting your trust in Jesus.

You appear want something else and desire to claim authority greater than Jesus himself.

Rather, it appears that you have quite an overactive imagination about what I want.

So, I'll tell you what I want. I want to defend the truth of Scripture.

[QOTE]Jesus loves those who obey Him.[/QUOTE]
Why stop there? The Bible says that that God so loved the world (that's everyone) that He gave His uniquely born son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. Jn 3:16

Jesus loves people who are grounded, motivated and walking in love.

So, in your overactive imagination, Jesus doesn't care about the ungrounded, unmotivated, and those not walking in love 9whatever that means to you)??

You do not know Scripture.

The two greatest commandments from which everything else comes is love God and love your neighbour.

I've asked you to define biblical love, and you just won't do that. So why do you keep mentioning "love" when you can't even define it?

Yet above these you would put security, your heart, and sin.

Where do you get the stupid notion that I put sin above anything? Now you're showing that your over active imagination is also delusional.

Have you not stopped to wonder that this is just wrong and the opposite of the gospel and the freedom Christ offers.

I'm beginning to get the impression from your posts that you don't even understand what the gospel is.

And this security is vapour ware if Jesus will not honour it.

So you're now suggesting that Jesus won't honor what He promises?

Just who is the "Jesus" that you speak of? Certainly not the Son of God as revealed in the Bible.

Jesus honours repentant sinners brought to the cross, walking in love and faith.

Jesus honors all of His promises.

His sheep are defined as those who listen to Him and follow Him.

No, they are defined as those who "enter through the gate (Himself) and are saved.

John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 10:27 describes what His sheep DO. But not to become His sheep. You have a problem with misreading Scripture. I serious problem.

Whoever you are listening to it is not Jesus, and He will not honour and save sheep who dishonour Him.

So, like so many flawed human beings, if we're not "nice" to Jesus, He won't be "nice" to us? Poppycock.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know our divide, and I know the bridge, but you refuse to let your hearts be spoken to by the Lord.[/QOUTE]
I have only one heart, not "hearts". And you have no authority to tell me what I refuse to do. I listen and BELIEVE what Jesus says, unlike yourself.

Now I am not judging you, I am merely taking your words and saying what they mean.

No you're not. Not even close.

So if you are not with me, you are against me and my standing in the Lord.

How can you claim to have "standing in the Lord" when you blatantly disbelieve what He says?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Those who hear and obey are given eternal life on the Day of Judgement.

Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.
JLB

This is what I posted:
"You are amazingly dense. The red words that I just shared with you in my previous post refers to all your LIES.

You have NEVER addressed either post #1568 or #1703 both of which provided a full color coded explanation of both John 10:27 and 28.

What have you been waiting for? Or, have you finally come to the conclusion that you can't address either post because they totally refute your false man-made doctrines."

Go ahead and address my points from posts #1568 and 1703, where my full color explanation for both v.27 and v.28 are clearly presented.

Your claim that v.28 is the result of obeying v.27 is poppycock.

There are NO WORDS in either verse that allows anyone to come to that nonsense view.

In fact, v.27 describes what Jesus' sheep DO. v.28 describes the result of receiving the gift of eternal life; they shall never perish.

I'm willing to bet that even first graders can comprehend that simple fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does 2 Thessalonians 2:12 mention eternal security?

Well, let's first examine the verse, shall we?

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

And, another verse:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So, principle is found in BOTH verses? The FACT that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

So, for any person who "HAS believed" cannot be condemned. It's that simple, even for those who are rather dense.

But your problem goes further than the thickness of your skull. You just don't like what the Bible teaches. In fact, from all your posts, you seem to HATE what the Bible teaches.

I"ve given 2 verses that tell us who WILL BE CONDEMNED; those who 'have not believed'.

And I've given 2 verses that very clearly tell us who WON'T BE CONDEMNED, or will not perish:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Your problem is that you hate what these 4 verses teach. So you hide your hatred by claiming they say something else.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the problem. Do a search on the word vain in scripture

I'm way ahead of you on that. I already have. The question is: have you?

Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:2
you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain 1 Cor 15:58
we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2 Cor 6:1
for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. Gal 2:2

The Greek word means "without cause or reason".

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb 3:14

The single Greek word for "hold firmly" means to 'possess'. It's not about our own grip strength, but what God has given us.

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

You should know better than try to use this verse on how to get to heaven. Paul was setting up the ONLY WAY to get to heaven APART FROM JESUS.

We know this for what he wrote AFTER writing Rom 2:6-8.

Such as: Rom 3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The inclusivity (all) of these 2 verses proves that NO HUMAN BEING can fulfill Rom 2;6-8 and receive eternal life.

Not only that, but Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Heb 7:19 - (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Gal 3:19-25
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Gal 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

What is sad is that your posts seem to indicate that you never bother to read any of the verses that I post, all of which refute your ideas.