2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

James didn’t write chapter 2 verses 14-26 because he thought everyone who believes will produces works. He wrote this as an example for those who do believe and still do not do good works. Just the same Jesus didn’t say to His faithful 11 apostles abide in me because He thought they could not turn away. That would’ve been a pointless message to tell someone who believes to abide if they had no choice but to abide.

Exactly. I haven't seen anyone arguing otherwise for quite some time. Did I miss a post?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How can two people who live in different worlds communicate?

Only by speaking the same language. So, for believers, that common language is Scripture. But since you don't a lot of it, how can we communicate?

Much of my understanding in Jesus is through my heart, through the word and through my communion with Him.

Well, this is what the Bible says about your heart:

Jer 17:9 - The heart (of mankind) is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Regarding "through the word", why would you say that since you don't believe so much of it?

And "communion with Him"? Again, how can you have communion (fellowship) with Him when you don't understand the commands regarding the Holy Spirit, and don't believe what Jesus says.

How can you have fellowship with your wife if you don't believe what she says?

The Lord describes the problem with His people like this

Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel
Isaiah 46:12-13

Do you realize that these verses apply to those who don't believe Scripture?

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Isaiah 29:13

Ahem! The notion that salvation can be lost is nothing other than "rules taught by men". The Bible sure doesn't teach it.

You have planted them, and they have taken root; they grow and bear fruit. You are always on their lips but far from their hearts.
Jeremiah 12:2

This directly applies to those who claim they have communion with the Lord, love Him, but don't believe what He says.

When people claim we walk by the Spirit, yet are evil doers, they are lying.

Of course they are. Just like people who claim to have communion with the Lord yet don't believe what He says. They are LYING just as much.

If these people claimed to know God they would love His people and minister love to them rather than condemnation and judgement.[/QUOT]
If people claim to have communion with the Lord, they would BELIEVE all that Jesus said.

So likewise with myself, when I explain or want to talk about simple realities, I am wrong, and do not know the Word or God.

Because what you explain or want to talk about doesn't line up with the Word.

It is strange that a people should be so hemmed in, and only one idea dominates above all, that they are Gods elect, rather than walking in His ways.

So, this seems to be an admission that the truth of Scripture isn't the only idea that is valuable.

Do you know what that suggests? That there are other ideas that are just as legit.

ARE YOU KIDDING???!!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gods elect or walking in His ways?

Yes, some of God's elect do walk in His ways.

This appears to be the divide. Do not talk against Gods elect, because you are the enemy. If Gods elect sin, that is just their right, do not judge or condemn them.

What in the world are you talking about? Who says that believers have a "right" to sin? Please identify who these are.

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him
John 7:38

But do you believe what He says? No.

If you feel rejected by this picture, I ask why?

You don't need to ask me. I don't feel rejected by it.

Has it ever occurred to you that your heart does not want to give up evil deeds and repent and make your paths straight?

Since none of this nonsense applies to me, no, it can't occur to me.

How many things do you covert, women you lust after, wealth you need, comfort you cannot do without, power and recognition that must be given and achieved?

Coveting is a sin. I do not covet.

So many things can make us prisoners.

A main one is emotions.

Bitterness over family, friends, situations gone wrong, spurned partners, children gone awry. These are tough issues, but they can become foundational to what we will do and where we will go. Say just a few words at the wrong moment, and the emotional electricity becomes very alive. These are things we need to bring before the Lord before they bring us to the seat of judgement.

The good news is that none of this applies to me.

I know how to by cleansed from my sins, how to maintain fellowship (communion) with the Lord and grow in grace.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Of course they are. Just like people who claim to have communion with the Lord yet don't believe what He says. They are LYING just as much.

According to your testimony you are a righteous walker.
Amen, welcome brother into the communion of the saints.

The great thing about walking with the Lord is to walk in His will through His word.
And believing what Jesus says, is not as simple as you like to make out.

If two or three of us agree together on earth it will done in heaven.
If we forgive sins of people, they will be forgiven in Heaven, if we do not forgive them on earth they will not be forgiven in heaven.

I am not sure about such things, though Jesus gives us this authority.
Equally if we ask anything in His name and have faith that we have already received it, it will be done.

I know in part what this is. If we ask the Lord for His intervention, and we know He will answer through a gift of faith, it will be done. But this kind of insight, agreement and faith seem rare.

So as I grow I gain more insight, but what Jesus means over some things is still not clear to me.

And our righteousness being better than the pharisees, is clear in terms of hypocracy. Jesus talking about being perfect in how we show anger, again is clear to me.
So I admit there are issues I still have, and knowing Gods gifting in my life, but we grow in grace and love, so praise the Lord and let us walk on in fellowship and encouragement, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Only by speaking the same language. So, for believers, that common language is Scripture. But since you don't a lot of it, how can we communicate?

I have shared many scriptures about the heart and how we speak from it and by it and through it. It seems this is a problem to you, as if your heart is not who you are.

So I ask you simply, do you speak from the heart or only from your thinking and intellect? Or another way of putting it, you life is a reflection of you beliefs but not your actions, or are you wholly committed to walking like Jesus?

In the end it is this walk and this fellowship I desire most, empowered by the King.
Amen.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Exactly. I haven't seen anyone arguing otherwise for quite some time. Did I miss a post?

Not from me I haven’t posted here in a while. Hope you have a blessed evening friend.

 

[Gr8Grace]

.

So I ask you simply, do you speak from the heart or only from your thinking and intellect?

You know the heart is a thing that pumps blood right? When the Bible speaks of the heart it is speaking of the right lobe of the brain.........where we do our THINKING. What we think is what defines us. Not our emotions or feelings.

If we are led by our heart/thinking/objectivity/truth/His word.......emotions and feelings are good or sorrowful and will follow with our thinking.

But if we are led by our emotions or feelings our heart/thinking/objectivity/truth/His word......... will not follow.

Intellect has nothing to do with it. The Lord Jesus Christ has offered salvation for anyone who believes and fellowship for believers as equal opportunity and equal privilege for ALL.......no matter someones intellect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Of course they are. Just like people who claim to have communion with the Lord yet don't believe what He says. They are LYING just as much."

According to your testimony you are a righteous walker.
Amen, welcome brother into the communion of the saints.

Let's just focus on why YOU claim to walk in the Spirit and commune with the Lord, YET you DON'T believe what Jesus says about recipients of eternal life.

The great thing about walking with the Lord is to walk in His will through His word.

Yet, you don't believe His word. Your words are contradictory. I believe you are insincere.

And believing what Jesus says, is not as simple as you like to make out.

Of course it is simple. You either:
1. accept and BELIEVE what He says, or
2. don't accept and REJECT what He says.

There are no other options.

If two or three of us agree together on earth it will done in heaven.

If you 2 or 3 don't agree with what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, then it doesn't matter what your crowd (3's a crowd) agree on. It WON'T be done in heaven.

If we forgive sins of people, they will be forgiven in Heaven, if we do not forgive them on earth they will not be forgiven in heaven.

Will your rejection of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life be forgiven?

I am not sure about such things, though Jesus gives us this authority.
Equally if we ask anything in His name and have faith that we have already received it, it will be done.

If you ask "amiss", God WON'T hear you.

Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Pros 15:29 - The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Don't kid yourself. Rejecting what Jesus said so clearly is wicked.

I know in part what this is. If we ask the Lord for His intervention, and we know He will answer through a gift of faith, it will be done.

Not for those who have blatantly rejected His words.

But this kind of insight, agreement and faith seem rare.

You have no insight.

So as I grow I gain more insight, but what Jesus means over some things is still not clear to me.

Are you trying to suggest that John 10:28 just isn't "clear enough" for you to understand yet? But that in time, you'll understand it?

And our righteousness being better than the pharisees, is clear in terms of hypocracy. Jesus talking about being perfect in how we show anger, again is clear to me.

Let's just focus on your rejection of Scripture, which IS very clear.

So I admit there are issues I still have, and knowing Gods gifting in my life, but we grow in grace and love, so praise the Lord and let us walk on in fellowship and encouragement, Amen.

No believer can grow spiritually WHEN they REJECT what Jesus said.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

You have indicated that believers CAN perish.

Your views are OUT OF STEP with the Lord's words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have shared many scriptures about the heart and how we speak from it and by it and through it. It seems this is a problem to you, as if your heart is not who you are.

I've never had any problem about speaking from the heart.

I've made my issue clear: I have a HUGE problem with professing believers who REJECT the words of Jesus, as you do.

So I ask you simply, do you speak from the heart or only from your thinking and intellect?

I invite you to research the Hebrew and Greek words for "heart" and see what you learn. The 'heart' is the seat of the intellect.

If you want emotions, that word is 'kilyah'. The word is related to the gut.

In the end it is this walk and this fellowship I desire most, empowered by the King.
Amen.

If this is true, then the FIRST THING you must do is believe ALL that Jesus said, including what He said about recipients of eternal life.

Until then, you are OUT OF STEP with the Lord, and NOT having any fellowship at all.

In fact, you are OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.

And that ain't good.

 

[Gr8Grace]

No believer can grow spiritually WHEN they REJECT what Jesus said.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

You have indicated that believers CAN perish.

Your views are OUT OF STEP with the Lord's words.

This really is the 'heart' of the problem.

To talk deeper things, is like talking to a fence post until this is understood and applied in one's life.

If eternal security is not understood, then the truth of fellowship and how to live the Christian way of life is invariably denied and rejected.

AND, eternal security is so closely tied to His plan of salvation that invariably His gospel is turned into a cursed 'gospel' by us if we don't believe in eternal security.

 

[JLHargus]

I said this:
""Having looked over all the following Scriptures, it is clear that there is NO CLEAR STATEMENT about salvation being lost. None.

By unclear, there is no plain language about losing salvation. One has to assume that. Could you refer to the specific post # that the list was given?


Sure. First, we have to ask, "it's impossible for WHAT?" The answer is "to renew them again unto repentance".

Nothing about salvation here. So one has to assume that's what's being meant.

However, the Greek word for 'repent' means "change of mind". So the passage is about those saved Jews who had or were going to return to the Law and its sacrifices. It is impossible for them to change their mind about their view of the levitical sacrificial system. That's all. Again, salvation isn't even mentioned. Must less losing anything.


Again, in v.28, the first phrase, "I give them eternal life" is a clear and direct statement by Jesus that speaks to the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Himself.
iow, since He gives eternal life, He is the CAUSE of those who have it.

The second phrase, "and they shall never perish" is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Couldn't be any more clear or direct. By simply being given eternal life, Jesus is saying that the recipient shall never perish.

Is there any condition or conditions listed after the first phrase or CAUSE before the EFFECT phrase? No.

Therefore, v.28 is a clear statement about eternal security, which applies the MOMENT one believes. How do I know this?

Jesus said in John 5:24 and 6:47 that whoever believes HAS (present possession) eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT one is given eternal life, which is WHEN one believes, they shall never perish. No strings attached.


Review v.38. It says "neither the present, nor the future". What does that mean? It means that nothing that occurs will separate the believer from the love of Christ.

Another verse on eternal security.


Except, of course, that there is no "exception" anywhere in Rom 8. Or anywhere else in the Bible.


Do you think this verse rerfers to spiritual death? Why would you? Human beings are BORN spiritually DEAD and in need of being born again.

And once given the gift of eternal life, how can that person die spiritually, when they are said to be spiritually alive? Eph 2


The flaw here is to think that one who HAS eternal life can die spiritually. There is no evidence for that in the Bible.

In fact, Heb 9:27 says "it is appointed to man to die ONCE, and then to face judgment. That refers to physical death. The "second death" is the final residence of unbelievers. Everyone is born spiritually dead, and unbelievers stay in that state throughout eternity.

Those who believe are born again, or made spiritually alive, and cannot EVER die spiritually again.


Everyone is born that way.

So your view is that eternal life can die. Ludicrous.

 

[LightLoveHope]

.
You know the heart is a thing that pumps blood right? When the Bible speaks of the heart it is speaking of the right lobe of the brain.........where we do our THINKING. What we think is what defines us. Not our emotions or feelings.

If we are led by our heart/thinking/objectivity/truth/His word.......emotions and feelings are good or sorrowful and will follow with our thinking.

But if we are led by our emotions or feelings our heart/thinking/objectivity/truth/His word......... will not follow.

Intellect has nothing to do with it. The Lord Jesus Christ has offered salvation for anyone who believes and fellowship for believers as equal opportunity and equal privilege for ALL.......no matter someones intellect.

Let me burst your bubble. Let us say I love parties, having a good time, going a bit far with the girls. Now how is this reflected in my heart. It is reflected in what I want to do, the types of people and things I like. It effects everything I think and do.

Now the way a person is made up is what they think about and their priorities.

In your description "what we think is what defines us".
So let us look at the most important things in life, conversion, birth, marriage and death.

Are you seriously saying what you think defines these events?
God help you, you live is a very secluded world and need to get out more.

You are spock, a man with no involvement or heart for people.

In scripture when people are "cut to the heart"

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:37-38

These people are hurt, convicted, want a solution, know they are in a difficult place and feel it.

The heart of a person is everything that comprises who they are, their passions, desires, hopes, dreams, experiences, ideas, thoughts, interactions.

I feel like only with you guys I would have to ever say this, because anyone knows we are this mixture of things. It shows how way out there you are to try and suggest we are just thoughts. Why do you think it says,

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away
Rev 21:4

If you want an dry intellectual heaven with no feelings, then probably you will find a place of great darkness, gnashing of teeth and judgement. Part of having an open heart is dealing with that pain and trouble, owning up to the difficulties and walking in His love.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let me burst your bubble. Let us say I love parties, having a good time, going a bit far with the girls. Now how is this reflected in my heart. It is reflected in what I want to do, the types of people and things I like. It effects everything I think and do.

Now the way a person is made up is what they think about and their priorities.

In your description "what we think is what defines us".
So let us look at the most important things in life, conversion, birth, marriage and death.

Are you seriously saying what you think defines these events?
God help you, you live is a very secluded world and need to get out more.

You are spock, a man with no involvement or heart for people.

In scripture when people are "cut to the heart"

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:37-38

These people are hurt, convicted, want a solution, know they are in a difficult place and feel it.

The heart of a person is everything that comprises who they are, their passions, desires, hopes, dreams, experiences, ideas, thoughts, interactions.

I feel like only with you guys I would have to ever say this, because anyone knows we are this mixture of things. It shows how way out there you are to try and suggest we are just thoughts. Why do you think it says,

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away
Rev 21:4

If you want an dry intellectual heaven with no feelings, then probably you will find a place of great darkness, gnashing of teeth and judgement. Part of having an open heart is dealing with that pain and trouble, owning up to the difficulties and walking in His love.

I would like to add a bit to your discussion.

The heart in the way the Bible presents it is our desires and priority.

Many verses in the Bible talk about our hears and our desires, such as the verse where it is explained that not only is a sexual interaction with another person is not only a sin, but also the desire to want to be with a person by lusting after another one also commits the sin of adultery.

That is why the Bible deals so much with the heart. The Holy Spirit convicting us of our sin and desires as well as our repentance from them.

I believe it is Biblical to understand this as

Heart —> Mind —> Action or doing/ making it reality

 

[LightLoveHope]

I believe you are insincere

You build you faith on the idea you are secure. This is security idolatry.
It is like a sports team celebrating victory before they have even started. It is just delusion and insanity.

If I go on a mountain walk I have to prepare for the journey, set the goal, the timings, the places to rest, water to take.

You are suggesting a few words said, a few ideas accepted and we are eternal.
But the hazy bit is the words and ideas and any actions.

I am sincerely concerned you have no real understanding of what it means to be a new creation, born again, a whole person saved unto God. You have a lot of scripture but one idolatrous notion you are saved before you have even begun. And this is not a problem to any converts, they would not get the idea they can do what they want and desire because they are "saved", except that is exactly what these people do and say. So it is just an excuse for sin and letting it rip if you want or being pious if you choose.

It is clear if I am upset or find anything hard to take from your words you do not care or even have any emotions about this interaction. It is all just hard facts. Except there is no such thing as "hard facts" only reasonable assumptions and observations.

So when I meet an emotional dwarf, who wants me to feel secure on the delusion of I am safe without actually doing, saying or being anything, I just say, No way.

I love Jesus and His way of Life, His truth, the way He leads His people. Thankyou Jesus for giving us a full life, in all its aspects, freedom in our emotional expression, freedom in our thoughts and ambitions, freedom in our imagination and creativity, to bring to you our King our offering of that thanks, Amen.

 

[Gr8Grace]

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:37-38

kardia: heart
Original Word: καρδία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kardia
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)
Definition: heart
Usage: lit: the heart;mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
HELPS Word-studies
2588 kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.

[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but neverreferring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]

 

[LightLoveHope]

His gospel is turned into a cursed 'gospel'

Here is the poison and condemnation.
We are secure in Christ, but if you do not follow our ideas you have a "cursed gospel"

This is how you encourage people to know Jesus, love, freedom, forgiveness, compassion, care? No. This is how you create division, condemnation and trouble.

If you have a congregation with closed hearts, unresolved sin, stunted and disfigured inside, and you preach the Holy Spirit will guide you, you will just get a mess.

There is nothing greater than sin that grieves the Holy Spirit.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
Eph 4:30-31

For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent--not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him.
2 Cor 2:4-6

Here is Paul is great distress, anguish, grieved because of his love for the corinthians.
And the grief was over a sinning brother, who needed a rebuke and putting right.

Yet here is a group who are intellectual, no not believe in resolving issues and are so secure, being impure and unrighteous is not a problem.

Whey they say we care deeply, the truth is over what? There is no morality that they hold to, because they are not under the law, it is just the subjective feelings of the Spirit that it might be of the flesh so wrong, but it might not. Subjective chaos or lawlessness is a better description of what this produces, with no power for anybody in the fellowship to help put things right.

 

[Gr8Grace]

If you want an dry intellectual heaven with no feelings

Why lie about what I said?

Feelings and emotions are wonderful/great/sorrowful/joyful/happy/sad if they are LED by right THINKING.

Feelings and emotions are downright dangerous if they are not LED by right THINKING.

If we are led by our emotions..........we go off the deep end rather quickly.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I am a robot, I can only take information and give facts out.
I have no loyalties cares or empathy, there is nothing in me that can be hurt or upset, joyful or sad.

This is not a human. Ever met a child and played with them.
You will then know we are emotions with the help of ideas and models to tell us what is good and what is dangerous. We are integrated and social, linked to our family to a degree without nurture we die inside and are stunted in how we develop.

As we grow we bury our emotions to cope, so at some later point we can work things through. Some never get to the working through, and live as a surface individual never knowing what is going on inside.

Emotional dwarfs do exist, and insist they are the truth, their handle of chaotic emotions in the truth, and the world is lost to random impulses and hedonism. Hedonism is a problem, feed worldly passions and it will kill you. But equally being an emotional dwarf is just denial and stopping being alive in any meaningful way.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why lie about what I said?

Feelings and emotions are wonderful/great/sorrowful/joyful/happy/sad if they are LED by right THINKING.

Feelings and emotions are downright dangerous if they are not LED by right THINKING.

If we are led by our emotions..........we go off the deep end rather quickly.

You were in denial that emotions are part of who we are.
Do you want to change your summary of people and put a fuller picture of what people are in truth?

I am talking about opening our hearts to God. What do you think God means by

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
Mark 12:30

Heart - emotions, desires, passion
soul - will, essence, core
mind - thinking, analysis, thoughts
strength - body and action

Now if God separates mind from our heart and soul I suggest everyone should also do likewise. This is why emotional dwarfs have no clue what they are saying or living.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Here is the poison and condemnation.
We are secure in Christ, but if you do not follow our ideas you have a "cursed gospel"

Well, here is your chance to clear it up then.

What must I do to be saved?