2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

I can claim I know Jesus, but if I have no love I am nothing.
If I have words, but not light, I am in darkness.

Death to life is not like staying in the world, if one is friends with the world one has not the light.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your description there is no repentance, conviction of sin and righteous walking, love, confession, testimony.

Well, one would have to read my posts to find them.

So I doubt your assumptions and big words.

I don't use assumptions, as you do, or use big words, as you do.

I quote Scripture that parallels what I believe.

The cross is significant, and again dying with Christ to the world is missing.

No, it isn't, but again, one would have to read my posts to find that.

You have believing without involvement. But to me that is not belief, it is a formula.

Again, one would have to read my posts find them.

Regarding involvement, who has repeatedly explained being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18), walking with the Spirit (Gal 5:16), and the commands to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, other than Gr8Grace and I.

It's you who have shown your total unfamiliarity with these commands.

Sin. You appear to believe it is always present, so no making us Holy, pure or cleansed.

This is why it's just not possible to have a rational or reasonable discussion with you. You haven't been reading what I post. I guess, you're just too eager to continue your one-way diatribe, rather than actually engaging what I say.

The ONLY way to be holy, pure and cleansed is by confession of sin, something you haven't ever commented on. But just read 1 John 1:9. It's all there.

So what is the point if the power of Christ is to appear as a saint but not be one?

There is no point. And what's the point of trying to have a discussion with you when you won't read anything that I post?

You haven't ever explained how one fulfills the command to be filled with the Spirit. Even after being asked to explain it. So I have to conclude that you just don't know how.

So you hide your ignorance of spiritual living behind your flowery, feel-good, and emotional words.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Well, one would have to read my posts to find them.

I don't use assumptions, as you do, or use big words, as you do.

I quote Scripture that parallels what I believe.

No, it isn't, but again, one would have to read my posts to find that.

Again, one would have to read my posts find them.

Regarding involvement, who has repeatedly explained being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18), walking with the Spirit (Gal 5:16), and the commands to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, other than Gr8Grace and I.

It's you who have shown your total unfamiliarity with these commands.

This is why it's just not possible to have a rational or reasonable discussion with you. You haven't been reading what I post. I guess, you're just too eager to continue your one-way diatribe, rather than actually engaging what I say.

The ONLY way to be holy, pure and cleansed is by confession of sin, something you haven't ever commented on. But just read 1 John 1:9. It's all there.

There is no point. And what's the point of trying to have a discussion with you when you won't read anything that I post?

You haven't ever explained how one fulfills the command to be filled with the Spirit. Even after being asked to explain it. So I have to conclude that you just don't know how.

So you hide your ignorance of spiritual living behind your flowery, feel-good, and emotional words.

I am not sure what you mean. If you agree with me that dying with Christ and living in the Spirit, walking in His ways is the road to life, which is a simple summary of our walk, why do you behave like you disagree with me?

It is an odd question for me, to ask how to be filled with the Spirit, because walking in the ways of the Spirit, praise and prayer fills us with the Spirit. We receive the Spirit on coming to faith in Christ with repentance.

And you are saying we can be Holy, through confession of our sins, and purfication by the blood of our consciences. This is a big difference I have found with many. They do not see righteous walking as confirmation of the Holy Spirit within.

What is confusing is your positions appears similar to hyper grace believers, except you are taking a more tradional line with security or calvanistic views. The hyper grace believers go for all sin is forgiven for the whole world, and judgement is only on faith in Christ. They also have a view of a pure holy born again spirit dwelling in sinful flesh, which is similar to gnostic views. So aligning yourself with such believers maybe distorts what you actually do believe.

Just quoting scripture does not show up these differences.
Rejection of the sermon on the mount and its relevance to the christian walk is often a clear difference. If you agree with me that all the sermon on the mount applies to all believers, then Amen. One guy showed how their view was this was a sarcastic discussion by Jesus to show the level of our failure, rather than the path to new life in Him.

I hope you can see this is very foundational. They would deny all scripture before the cross and they are in a new dispensation of grace, starting after pentecost.

Their language of repentance is just a change of mind, is built on to deny Jonah or feel grief for sin. As I have stated before this leads to easy believism, which has lead many similar to myself to comment on forums and stand as a witness to their errors.

One discussion was repentance was like saying I do not like oranges now, only apples.
To me this is just insane. But maybe you have a fuller view than this. I am all ears.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not sure what you mean. If you agree with me that dying with Christ and living in the Spirit, walking in His ways is the road to life, which is a simple summary of our walk, why do you behave like you disagree with me?

I have been disagreeing with your view that a saved sealed person can perish.

It is an odd question for me, to ask how to be filled with the Spirit, because walking in the ways of the Spirit, praise and prayer fills us with the Spirit. We receive the Spirit on coming to faith in Christ with repentance.

You are confusing being indwelt with being filled. And after all the questions from Gr8Grace and me on this subject, you've never responded.

And you are saying we can be Holy, through confession of our sins, and purfication by the blood of our consciences. This is a big difference I have found with many. They do not see righteous walking as confirmation of the Holy Spirit within.

Of course it is.

What is confusing is your positions appears similar to hyper grace believers, except you are taking a more tradional line with security or calvanistic views. The hyper grace believers go for all sin is forgiven for the whole world, and judgement is only on faith in Christ.

I find your words "hyper grace" to be troubling. Those who insist that holy living is ultimately the way to heaven just seem to hate the notion that God will let in any of His rebellious children.

Since God's grace toward the human race is sufficient for everyone, there is no way His grace can be "too much", which is what "hyper" insinuates.

I disagree with those who think all sin is forgiven for the whole world, since the Bible never says so. Forgiveness of sin is based on faith in Christ, per Acts 10:43.

And I disagree with their view that judgment is only on faith in Christ.

The Bible is clear about WHY people will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15 says those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast there.

So, judgment is based on not receiving the free gift of eternal life. Now, one might argue that receiving the free gift is equivalent to faith in Christ, but since Rev 20:15 is so clear, those who end up in the lake of fire will have an eternity to consider WHY they are there; for not receiving something free from God. It's all on them.

They also have a view of a pure holy born again spirit dwelling in sinful flesh, which is similar to gnostic views.

Why don't you believe this? Haven't you read the Bible? Haven't you heard of being "born again", the "new birth", "regeneration"? These words have a specific meaning.

It's not "mystic". It's real. Paul mentions "body, soul, and spirit", of believers. Unbelievers, being spiritually dead, have only a body and soul. But at the moment of rebirth, what is RE-born is the dead human spirit.

Remember what God told Adam about eating of the forbidden tree? "in the DAY that you eat of it, you will surely die." Now, did he fall dead when he bit into the fruit? No, of course not. So then, did God lie to him? No, of course not. What actually and literally died that day was his human spirit. He lost his ability for fellowship with God.

What did Jesus tell the woman at the well about worshiping God? Jn 4:24 - God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the spirit and in truth.”

Worshipers must have a human spirit and must worship according to God's ways.

So, the terms "born again", "re-born", and "regeneration" refer specifically to our dead human spirit being "made alive" (Eph 2:5).

It is on this basis of being born again that the Bible describes saved people as a "new creature/creation" in 2 Cor 5:17.

So aligning yourself with such believers maybe distorts what you actually do believe.

No, I have NEVER aligned myself with such nonsense. You're the one who keeps trying to align me with idiots. And I've repeatedly refuted your attempts.

Just quoting scripture does not show up these differences.

I quote Scripture to show what I believe.

Rejection of the sermon on the mount and its relevance to the christian walk is often a clear difference. If you agree with me that all the sermon on the mount applies to all believers, then Amen. One guy showed how their view was this was a sarcastic discussion by Jesus to show the level of our failure, rather than the path to new life in Him.

Don't align me with that "one guy".

I hope you can see this is very foundational. They would deny all scripture before the cross and they are in a new dispensation of grace, starting after pentecost.

Don't align me with them.

Their language of repentance is just a change of mind, is built on to deny Jonah or feel grief for sin.

Where did Jonah feel grief? He was fairly hard hearted and headed.

Greek repentance has nothing to do with emotions. But you won't accept that. It's about aligning one's thinking with God's thinking.

As I have stated before this leads to easy believism, which has lead many similar to myself to comment on forums and stand as a witness to their errors.

OK, explain exactly what this "easy believism" is and means.

One discussion was repentance was like saying I do not like oranges now, only apples.
To me this is just insane. But maybe you have a fuller view than this. I am all ears.

I think you need to go back and review my replies to your posts. That's what I and Gr8Grace have been trying to get through to you about.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why don't you believe this? Haven't you read the Bible? Haven't you heard of being "born again", the "new birth", "regeneration"? These words have a specific meaning.

It's not "mystic". It's real. Paul mentions "body, soul, and spirit", of believers. Unbelievers, being spiritually dead, have only a body and soul. But at the moment of rebirth, what is RE-born is the dead human spirit.

My view is now based on two principles.
Does a belief or doctrine affect my life, one way or the other?
If the answer is no, for instance do we have a spirit, or just a soul?
The principles of the way and our communion do not changed dependant on my understanding or otherwise.

I do not believe you can separate the body from the spirit. When Paul says we go from death to life, he appears to be talking about us becoming alive in Christ rather than something new being given to us. There is no evidence that something external becomes us at spiritual birth. Rather life is given to the believer, something that was not there now exists and breaths. But equally it appears this life can also die.

What demonstrates the problem with sinful man is his ability to try and get away with whatever they can.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My view is now based on two principles.
Does a belief or doctrine affect my life, one way or the other?

This question suggests that doctrines don't effect your life. Which I believe, since you have been clear about living your life from emotions and feelings, rather than reality of objectivity.

If the answer is no, for instance do we have a spirit, or just a soul?
The principles of the way and our communion do not changed dependant on my understanding or otherwise.

I do not believe you can separate the body from the spirit.

Yet, the Bible does. And very clearly.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Some people dismiss this verse as simply being a statement about the immaterial (red words) and the material (blue words).

However, notice that joints and marrow are separate entities, in close relation to each other. Joints are found between bones, and marrow is found in bones. I believe the same relationship is found in soul and spirit. They are separate entitles, but in close relation to each other.

I also noted what Jesus told the woman at the well.

Do none of these verses move you at all?

When Paul says we go from death to life, he appears to be talking about us becoming alive in Christ rather than something new being given to us.

Are you kidding? He said those who are in Christ are NEW CREATURES/CREATION.

It seems Scripture just doesn't move you at all. Too busy emoting and feeling.

There is no evidence that something external becomes us at spiritual birth.

I never once mentioned anything "external" in my post. So why do you put this in?
It seems you're just dodging the issue by mentioning irrelevancy.

Rather life is given to the believer, something that was not there now exists and breaths.

The Bible clearly shows that a very dead spirit is born AGAIN, given a NEW birth, and is RE-generated. But these objective words seem to have no meaning or significance to you.

But equally it appears this life can also die.

Physical life, sure. Not eternal life, which is a gift given at the moment of faith in Christ.

What demonstrates the problem with sinful man is his ability to try and get away with whatever they can.

You didn't say one single thing to refute my explanation of what "rebirth", "new birth", and "regeneration" means. You merely ignored it.

Nor did you try to explain these words in real terms.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I do not believe you can separate the body from the spirit.

Paul did. And we can try to clean up our body(flesh) to the best of our ability, But if we are not in fellowship with Him through our new creation(regenerated human Spirit/that CANNOT sin) it is all for NAUGHT.
1 Thess 5:23~~New American Standard Bible
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice how Paul say's 'spirit' first. We are to walk in the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit, not quench the Spirit and not grieve the Spirit. This is the Spiritual life and if we live in it..........the soul and body will be blameless. I have said this countless times:

Living spiritually will ALWAYS lead to living morally......The soul and body will also be blameless.

Living morally will never result in living Spiritually.

When Paul says we go from death to life, he appears to be talking about us becoming alive in Christ rather than something new being given to us.

Eph 4:24~~New American Standard Bible
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Col 3:10~~New American Standard Bible
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Luke 5:37~~New American Standard Bible
"And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

What demonstrates the problem with sinful man is his ability to try and get away with whatever they can.

Correct. Man will justify all his bad with all his 'good'.........that is why we see the GWTJ judging people according to their DEEDS(human good) rather than their sins.(Jesus paid for ALL sin)

Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(NOT sins)

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"I just ANSWERED your bogus question, for the umpteenth time."

Seriously? Aren't you even trying to follow this discussion? Or just rather keep on repeating your very tired talking points?


It was a RESOUNDING YES.

Thank you for proving your “theology” is unbiblical.

Those who are in Christ have eternal life.

Those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


Please explain to everyone what the difference is between an unbeliever who is not in Christ and a believer who is not in Christ?



JLB

 

[JLB777]

A RESOUNDING YES.


False alert!!! Eph 1:13,14 guarantees an inheritance for the sealed believer, for the day of redemption.

note that the key word is "redemption", not "judgment".

LOL.


There is no scripture in your post.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

You are the one who is not functioning in reality.

v.27 is a clear description of WHAT Jesus' sheep DO. There are NO conditions for anything in v.27.

v.28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

The red words state the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words state the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is to never perish.

I've given this to you many, many times. And you've repeatedly failed to even address my points, that I color coded for ease of understanding my points.

A person would have to be either color blind or stupid to not follow my points.

So, if you decide, once again, to ignore my points, then at least let the forum know which you are: color blind or stupid

You never bothered to quote verse 27.

Why?


No one is interested in your opinion.


The reason you never use scripture, but instead you post your “explanation” of the verse and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.

What a joke.


Post a scripture with the context so we can all see what the Lord actually said.


Not your version of what He said.



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

This question suggests that doctrines don't effect your life. Which I believe, since you have been clear about living your life from emotions and feelings, rather than reality of objectivity.

Doctrines are a word that describes the ideas of a theology. They are not the living the theology, just its description. It is like saying I believe in love, yet not loving, or Christ is God yet not obeying Him, or my sin is forgiven yet continue deliberately sinning.

So it is how one applies the beliefs as well as believing them that matter, not the beliefs in isolation. So of course doctrines or theology bear fruit in our lives, but some doctrines are derived while others are obvious. So some believers will say they know Jesus yet do not apply it. The apostles talk about such people, and how lost they are without God, describes as liars, under judgement etc.

So if one believes on being born again, we become pure and holy and cannot sin, it has to be reflected in ones life. If the reality is struggles, failure with confession and repentance, then one has to admit, maybe things are not so clear cut. So has grown the theology of transformation, of open hearts, of rebuilding how we are and how we behave. This is not a self restructuring but one of applying the commands and the fruit taking root. This is called behaviouralism, were the actual change is not analytical, but through putting love in action, not because it says obey, but because one begins to see what to love and what to shun.
Love the sinner not the sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you for proving your “theology” is unbiblical.

You're just real funny.

Those who are in Christ have eternal life.

Absolutely.

And those who are IN Christ are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, who positions the believer INTO Christ. And this sealing is a deposit which GARANTEES the inheritance for the day of redemption of God's possession.

Doesn't sound like a sealed believer can EVER perish.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Did you notice that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't break the "seal".

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Here's the color coded explanation:

The red words speak to WHEN or the MOMENT one is sealed.
The blue words speak of the Holy Spirit as a seal or mark that seals the believer IN Christ. Also, this sealing is a deposit that guarantees something.
The green words speak of what is guaranteed: the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

All this proves eternal security, so your man made theology that salvation can be lost is revealed.

Those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life.

And this is EVERYONE who has NEVER believed in Christ.

Because those who HAVE believed, ARE sealed and GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Refers to believers, who are sealed IN Christ (have the Son) and unbelievers, who are NOT sealed IN Christ and will perish.

Please explain to everyone what the difference is between an unbeliever who is not in Christ and a believer who is not in Christ?

All I can explain is the stupidity of claiming that given Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, that anyone who has believed, can be unsealed. Now, that is stupidity.

Is that what you're trying to demonstrate over and over?

Also, what I can explain is a believer who is IN fellowship with Christ and a believer who is NOT in fellowship, or OUT of fellowship with Christ.

The former is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the Spirit (Gal 5:16), and the latter is grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Any more questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"False alert!!! Eph 1:13,14 guarantees an inheritance for the sealed believer, for the day of redemption.

note that the key word is "redemption", not "judgment"."

LOL.

There is no scripture in your post.

What is quite laughable is the calim that there was "no scripture" in my post.

But then, it's rather clear that you have chosen to reject the clear words of Eph 1:13,14, which I cited. Which IS Scripture, regardless of how you view it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"v.27 is a clear description of WHAT Jesus' sheep DO. There are NO conditions for anything in v.27.

v.28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

The red words state the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words state the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is to never perish.

I've given this to you many, many times. And you've repeatedly failed to even address my points, that I color coded for ease of understanding my points.

A person would have to be either color blind or stupid to not follow my points."

You never bothered to quote verse 27.

I cited the verse and explained WHY there is no need to quote it. Those who are intellectually honest can look up the verse and realize that my comment about v.27 is correct. It is a description of Jesus' sheep. It contains NO WORDS that even suggest being a condition for never perishing. That is simply foolish thinking.

Why?

See above. Which I've previously explained over and over.

No one is interested in your opinion.

I agree. That's why I cite or quote so much Scripture that ACTUALLY SAYS WHAT I BELIEVE. Unlike yourself.

ps: no one is interested in your opinion either.

The reason you never use scripture, but instead you post your “explanation” of the verse and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.

Again, you seem to relish lying. I quoted v.28 in my post, and even color coded it for ease in following my points.

But, when have you EVER even tried to refute any of my points? Never is when.

So, why not? It's either being color blind or the other. So, which is it?

Post a scripture with the context so we can all see what the Lord actually said.

My pleasure. From John 10. I hope I've included enough context. lol

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,
23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,
41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.”
42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

ps: my color coded explanation still stands:

The red words are the CAUSE of having eternal life.
The blue words are the EFFECT of having eternal life.

OK, I've given plenty of context and quoted the verse directly.

So, go ahead, and explain how my color coded explanation is false.

Not your version of what He said.

Unless you can and will explain how I have a different "version" of v.28 than what the Bible says, your statement is beyond absurd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doctrines are a word that describes the ideas of a theology. They are not the living the theology, just its description.

I don't know where you get your definitions from, but your claim is not correct.

A doctrine is a teaching or principle from the Word of God.

It is like saying I believe in love, yet not loving, or Christ is God yet not obeying Him, or my sin is forgiven yet continue deliberately sinning.

No it's not. That's just ridiculous.

So if one believes on being born again, we become pure and holy and cannot sin, it has to be reflected in ones life.

Except believing all this is folly, for the Bible teaches that all are sinners, that all have fallen short of God's glory, that there is none good, no, not one. You want the verses? OK: Rom 3:9, 23, 11.

The ONLY WAY to become pure and holy and not sin is WHEN the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the Spirit (Gal 5:16). But you can't even explain these verses.

If the reality is struggles, failure with confession and repentance, then one has to admit, maybe things are not so clear cut.

Wrong again. The struggles reveal lack of faith, not that the principles are not "clear cut".

So has grown the theology of transformation, of open hearts, of rebuilding how we are and how we behave.

Huh? How has this "theology" grown? What do you mean?

This is not a self restructuring but one of applying the commands and the fruit taking root.

Explain the commands that result in fruit bearing.

This is called behaviouralism, were the actual change is not analytical, but through putting love in action, not because it says obey, but because one begins to see what to love and what to shun.

No, spiritual growth is NEVER called "behavioralism". That is just more psycho-babble. Spiritual growth is growing in your salvation (1 Pet 2:2).

But again, you keep showing how much you do not understand Scripture at all.

Changing one's behavior through will power is not the Christian life.

Changing one's behavior through the filling of the Spirit IS the Christian life.

Yet, you cannot explain how to be filled with the Spirit, and use Scripture to explain it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't know where you get your definitions from, but your claim is not correct.
A doctrine is a teaching or principle from the Word of God.

Here is a problem. A doctrine is part of a belief system. It may or may not be from God or even in the bible. I am defining objective definition of belief systems.

I suspect you just enjoy being provocative. I have heard of people whose aim is just to provoke.

No it's not. That's just ridiculous.

What is ridiculous about hypocrisy and saying one thing and doing another?
People do it all the time. So one can see Jesus loves and believe He loves and not actually enter in to love oneself. It is why John points out to say you hate your brother you cannot have love in your heart.

If ones heart is closed, then these are just words, ideas painted in the sky to be dismissed.
When Jesus says we are light on a hill, that good works done through and by His power are this light, what does that mean to you?

As I said, we are called to be the people of light.
If one is full of darkness, one is not obviously a person of the light.

It seems this simple language is too much for you. How is this, unless you are deliberately avoiding it?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Wrong again. The struggles reveal lack of faith, not that the principles are not "clear cut".

Struggles in our walk are because of lack of faith, not a lack of resolution?
No surprise then things seem so hard, if you think faith bring you victory.
I have this disease but if I have faith it will go away.
I am addicted to ...... but if I have faith it will go away.
I hate my ....... but if I have faith it will be no more.
I stole ...... but if I have faith I am not guilty

Faith is trust in God, but one actually has to do what He tells you to do to resolve the issue.
The old story of calling to God for rescue, and all the people are rejected because they are not God, though all provided rescue. And church history demonstrates nothing is "clear cut".
Ask people in a congregation who is Jesus and you will get a different response from each one, some will be plain nuts while others full of the Holy Spirit.

All I can imagine is you do not listen much to others, and are too involved in your own belief system and not helping others discover who God is and what His will actually is.

I pray the Lord might open your heart to Him and His will, and He might help you to feel and be free, to be healed and made whole, to stop defending and just be in Him and through Him and by Him, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Correct. Man will justify all his bad with all his 'good'.........that is why we see the GWTJ judging people according to their DEEDS(human good) rather than their sins.(Jesus paid for ALL sin)

The above statement was stated as winner by Free.

Odd he denied all sin was forgiven through the cross.
This lack of clarity from the "objectivity doctrine" and "facts" preacher is just hypocricy.
He is completely emotionally biased to his approved of group and position, and the others.

The gospel is about taking us from A to B.
If you deny B has any relevance, you are lost, because that was the whole point.

And from our perspective, you have become an enemy of the gospel, a divisive individual and a false teacher. gnostic ideas were rejected because they refuse to resolve and take responsibility for sin, and scape goat sin onto the flesh rather than learning to walk, to have faith and be transformed through an open heart.

The idolatry of the self.
I am a sinner, no one can touch me or resolve my issues. God gives me a free pass to heaven, so you evil sin condemners can rot in hell, because you are the enemy, spreading satans lies that I am a sinner doomed to hell because I refuse to resolve my issues, and Jesus still accepts me.

The trouble is within this belief system is the lie that destroys and condemns the believer. They claim to know Jesus, but He is just a sop to their lifestyle, and their rebellion all dressed up in religion. They are just nice enough to carry this off, because they have a church background and know how to play the game. And their game is so good, they can try and con the elect into believing they are lost and evil in seeing them for who they are, fake believing sinners, evil doers, rejected from the beginning of time for their behaviour, and never interested is resolving their heart positions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is a problem. A doctrine is part of a belief system.

This is what I said: "A doctrine is a teaching or principle from the Word of God."

It may or may not be from God or even in the bible. I am defining objective definition of belief systems.

And that is the problem. You keep wanting to wander all over the place, while I am trying to stay ON TRACK with the Bible. I don't care a bit about false doctrines of any kind.

I suspect you just enjoy being provocative. I have heard of people whose aim is just to provoke.

There you go again, hiding behind all those "others". Does that give you some kind of comfort, or something?

Why can't you just deal with what I post and forget all about all those "others" you seem to prefer arguing against?

What is ridiculous about hypocrisy and saying one thing and doing another?

I don't understand your sentence. Hypocrisy IS saying one thing and doing another. So how is that definition "ridiculous about hypocrisy"? That doesn't make sense.

When Jesus says we are light on a hill, that good works done through and by His power are this light, what does that mean to you?

Just what it says. Believers are to be as a light on a hill, with our good works shining so they are seen by others, as a witness of our faith.

As I said, we are called to be the people of light.
If one is full of darkness, one is not obviously a person of the light.

I fail to see any point here. Oh, are you thinking about all those "others" you keep bringing up?

It seems this simple language is too much for you. How is this, unless you are deliberately avoiding it?

I wouldn't use the word "simple" in regard to your sentences. Many of them just don't make any sense. Which I always point out, and you never re-phrase to clarify whatever it was you intended to communicate.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Struggles in our walk are because of lack of faith, not a lack of resolution?

OK, I'll repeat myself: "The struggles reveal lack of faith, not that the principles are not "clear cut"."

No surprise then things seem so hard, if you think faith bring you victory.
I have this disease but if I have faith it will go away.
I am addicted to ...... but if I have faith it will go away.
I hate my ....... but if I have faith it will be no more.
I stole ...... but if I have faith I am not guilty

All your "applications" here are totally phony.

Instead of "it will go away/be no more/am not guilty", how about inserting "God will provide for me"? That's what faith does. Which it appears you had no idea.

Faith is trust in God, but one actually has to do what He tells you to do to resolve the issue.

Of course. God will provide for me. But I have to follow His guidance.

The old story of calling to God for rescue, and all the people are rejected because they are not God, though all provided rescue.

If you think this sentence is clear or has meaning, I disagree. Please re-phrase as to make sense. Thanks in advance.

And church history demonstrates nothing is "clear cut".

Oh yeah. All those "others" that you love to obsess over.

Ask people in a congregation who is Jesus and you will get a different response from each one, some will be plain nuts while others full of the Holy Spirit.

From all your examples, it seems you prefer to focus on the "plain nuts".

All I can imagine is you do not listen much to others, and are too involved in your own belief system and not helping others discover who God is and what His will actually is.

Well, you'd just be wrong again in all your imagining. The VERY REASON I keep posting to you is to try to get you to see what the Bible says, instead of all your emotin' and feelin'.

I pray the Lord might open your heart to Him and His will, and He might help you to feel and be free, to be healed and made whole, to stop defending and just be in Him and through Him and by Him, Amen.

Why do you think I'm diseased and broken, and in need ot being healed and made whole?