2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

This summarises the problem. Paul is saying simply walking in love after being cleansed by Jesus, is walking in fulfilment of the law, not being a law breaker.

I know that. And that isn't relevant to our discussion.

If one is not a law breaker, then one is not under the law, because we are not in condemnation, but living in the Spirit.

What does this mean to you, specifically?

I realise you appear to have a blindness to the actual answer.

I don't think that you realise very much about me. You keep making totally false and reckless claims, all without knowing anything about me.

And to what question are you referring to, regarding my blindness to the actual answer?

The commandments, "Do not commit adultery,Do not murder,Do not steal,Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:9

All the law, the ten commandments flow from "Love your neighbour".
So by living in love, and letting love flow from us, be are not guilty under the law.

Obedience is walking in love.

Yes, all true. And what is the relevance to our discussion?

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. Gal 5:18
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:14
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8

All true. And what is the relevance to the discussion regarding eternal security for those given eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is only part of the truth. I do not know how anyone can know God as His dealing with mankind and sin, to think just changing your mind is Gods way.

No, you just don't know what the meaning is.

Repentance is about turning from wickedness and doing good.

No, the Greek word means "change of mind". In order to be saved, one must change their mind about a whole lot of things.

Such as:
1. they can't save themselves
2. they are sinful and fall short of God's glory
3. they are headed directly to the lake of fire in their present condition
4. the only means of salvation and living with God after death is through faith in Christ Jesus

they refused to repent of what they had done. Rev 16:11

Many people do refuse to change their minds.

"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Tim 2:19

Did you notice the "must"? It means they are supposed to.

He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:11

In fact, this is what believers are commanded to do.

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
Ezek 18:26-27

Can you explain which death, specifically, is being referred to here?

To deny these words and their plain meaning absolves me of your blood and judgement.

Why would I deny any Scripture? You sure ask stupid questions.

And there is nothing I can or have done that "absolves you of your blood". How silly.

You alone are accountable for your own actions.

To think repentance is just changing your mind is to deny the cross, and the way.

I've explained what it means. If one doesn't act on the facts learned, then they haven't really changed their mind.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You alone are accountable for your own actions.

You demonstrate is this response, not understanding the command God puts upon prophets.
It has always amazed me how people can claim we know the facts and then deny the words.

No, you just don't know what the meaning is.

Please can you give me some grace. I know what the meaning is and the particular meaning you are dictating. The problem with a phrase to change your mind, is it is meaningless. You could argue everything is driven from our thoughts or mind, so if you change the mind you change the person.

What also helps, is if one is a dispensationalist, one is not saying repentence in the old covenant was not traditional repentance and changing ones behaviour, it is now under the new covenant this is no longer necessary. This is often used to disavow the obvious meaning in Jonah and Ezekiel and the prophets.

This at least shows some sanity.

I imagine the hatred anti-legalists hold against their view of legalism, to even admit this is giving ground to the enemy. The phrase written by Paul is simple

"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Tim 2:19

He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:11

The above phrase are righteous walking phrases. We must walk in love or we are lost.
Now if you want to express it, as you come to faith, go from death to life and then walk
in love and righteousness, then amen. But I doubt this can be agreed with.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't think that you realise very much about me. You keep making totally false and reckless claims, all without knowing anything about me.

Let me put it plainly, as this is so simple.
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery,Do not murder,Do not steal,Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:9

People say, "No one can keep the 10 commandments, no one can walk 24/7 righteously."

This is a faith position and not a position of reality, because we only ever know a few small
group of people and are not in a position to judge everyone.

The root is rebellion. We struggle therefore we should not even try, we are limited today so
nothing different can happen tomorrow.

Paul goes through the basic contents of the morality in the 10 commandments and says loving fulfills it, is the righteous, blameless walk in the Spirit. But of course if one believes this is impossible and Paul is a respected authority he must be meaning something else.

Paul describes himself as being pure, holy, blameless. He defends all he does as an example for others to follow as he follows Jesus. This is not a compromised believer, but one who is calling all believers to live as he lives. What makes me wonder is how quickly people write this off.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Did you notice the "must"? It means they are supposed to.

Must means you could choose to not do it, but you would not be a follower of Jesus, actually be lost.
So the must is to emphasise no option here though you have the ability.

It is like saying when you jump out of a plane with a parachute on, you must pull the rip cord or you will die. Now some people will get it wrong, and they will die.

What I find interesting "Free" is you scale all the warnings into advisary issues that if you are especially enthusiastic you can take on, but it is only secondary. It is the type of lunacy that says crossing a motorway by running across the lanes is fine, if you die, part of you will make it. It is why I will oppose all those who talk against obedience and walking in love with Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You demonstrate is this response, not understanding the command God puts upon prophets.

What does this sentence mean?

It has always amazed me how people can claim we know the facts and then deny the words.

I'm rather amazed at your obvious unrelated comments to my posts.

btw, what words have I supposedly denied?

It seems all you do is make very false judgments about me.

Please can you give me some grace. I know what the meaning is and the particular meaning you are dictating. The problem with a phrase to change your mind, is it is meaningless.

No, the defintion of words is never meaningless, regardless of what you may think.

You could argue everything is driven from our thoughts or mind, so if you change the mind you change the person.

Don't worry about what I "could" do. Just focus on the discussion.

What also helps, is if one is a dispensationalist, one is not saying repentence in the old covenant was not traditional repentance and changing ones behaviour, it is now under the new covenant this is no longer necessary. This is often used to disavow the obvious meaning in Jonah and Ezekiel and the prophets.

By this, do you believe that one must change their behavior in order to be saved?

This at least shows some sanity.

What does this refer to? I went back to the original post, and this comment was buried in a number of your paragraphs. So, please clarify.

The phrase written by Paul is simple
"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Tim 2:19

He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:11

The above phrase are righteous walking phrases. We must walk in love or we are lost.

What you keep failing to grasp is that you've NOT YET provided any verse that says lifestyle, behavior, etc results in being saved OR lost.

And the 2 verses above DON'T either. Why don't you see that?

The commands are for believers (saved people) to obey.

Now if you want to express it, as you come to faith, go from death to life and then walk
in love and righteousness, then amen. But I doubt this can be agreed with.

[/QUOTE]
What the Bible DOES NOT SAY is that a change in behavior or lifestyle is necessary for salvation.

The Bible DOES SAY that reward and blessing IS dependent upon certain behaviors and lifestyle.

And I doubt this will be agreed to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I don't think that you realise very much about me. You keep making totally false and reckless claims, all without knowing anything about me."

Let me put it plainly, as this is so simple.
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery,Do not murder,Do not steal,Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:9

Once more, you've made a statement that has no relevance to what I said. So why did you make it?

People say, "No one can keep the 10 commandments, no one can walk 24/7 righteously."

No. The Bible says it. Rom 3 is quite clear.

This is a faith position and not a position of reality

Yes, I do understand that for you, faith is not reality. Oh, how sadly wrong you are.

It's your feelings and emotions that will lead you astray.

because we only ever know a few small
group of people and are not in a position to judge everyone.

The only thing I judge is what people claim against what the Bible says. Just like the Berean's. Ever heard of them? Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

The root is rebellion. We struggle therefore we should not even try, we are limited today so
nothing different can happen tomorrow.

Another tortured sentence that doesn't make sense. Please re-phrase.

Paul goes through the basic contents of the morality in the 10 commandments and says loving fulfills it, is the righteous, blameless walk in the Spirit. But of course if one believes this is impossible and Paul is a respected authority he must be meaning something else.

Please define what "love" means and is.

Paul describes himself as being pure, holy, blameless.

And he commands all believers to be the same.

He defends all he does as an example for others to follow as he follows Jesus. This is not a compromised believer, but one who is calling all believers to live as he lives. What makes me wonder is how quickly people write this off.

Are you including me in this mess of people that you so much like to focus on?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Must means you could choose to not do it, but you would not be a follower of Jesus, actually be lost.

Here we go again. Please support your opinion with any verse that says salvation is dependent upon "following Jesus". I know you can't.

The Bible is clear; salvation is based on our trust in Christ for saving us. But you don't seem to really believe that. You add your own efforts into it.

So the must is to emphasise no option here though you have the ability.

What do you mean by "no option"? Of course there is. Every command carries the option of NOT obeying it. Of course, the Bible is very clear about the consequences of rebellion against God's commands.

It is like saying when you jump out of a plane with a parachute on, you must pull the rip cord or you will die. Now some people will get it wrong, and they will die.

Are you actually suggesting that the Bible got is wrong on how to be saved?

What I find interesting "Free" is you scale all the warnings into advisary issues that if you are especially enthusiastic you can take on, but it is only secondary.

I'm betting on the fact that you never read your posts before hitting the "post" button. Maybe if you did, you would realize just how confusing and unclear a lot of your comments are.

Please re-phrase the sentence above so I can follow what you are trying to communicate.

It is the type of lunacy that says crossing a motorway by running across the lanes is fine, if you die, part of you will make it.

Well, and list just goes on and on. Another silly sentence that has no relevance to our discussion, or to what I have posted.

If you think it does, you're going to have to break it down and explain how.

It is why I will oppose all those who talk against obedience and walking in love with Christ.

Who would that be?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Here we go again. Please support your opinion with any verse that says salvation is dependent upon "following Jesus". I know you can't.

This statement shows where you stand. Somehow when you read verses, "We know we know God because we keep Him commands." "We love our brothers so love dwells within us" "Be holy" "Be pure"
"Sow to the Spirit and reap eternal life" "Follow Jesus's example" "Follow my example as I follow Jesus's example" "Obey my commandments and I will come and dwell with you" "May you will come to earth as it is in heaven" "The Spirit seals us" "The Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus has come in flesh" "Jesus is our Lord and Saviour" "Obey my words you are building your house upon a rock" "Forgive or you will not be forgiven" "Love fulfils the law" you disbelieve them.

This means to you Jesus does not want us to follow, and in following change, we just believe and we are saved.

But it shows you do not believe Jesus. If Jesus said "Obey the commandments", that is what we have to do. What He meant as Paul explains in love your neighbour, because that is obeying the commandments.

Jesus said "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments" Matt 19:17

This is why I say love is the foundation of the Kingdom. When anyone says "Oh no, I cannot love like that, it is not possible" they are not in the Kingdom. It takes faith to believe and know Jesus can fill us with His Spirit, His love so we can love as He loved us.

Jesus knew the size of the gap between His disciples and who He was, but also that this gap would be closed. Learning about love is part of discipleship, part of the transformation into Jesus's likeness.

Are we truly saved when we first come to faith? Yes, because we are committed to the walk and believe in Jesus and the way.

 

[JLB777]

Seriously? Why don't you believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

Why do you directly oppose what Jesus so plainly said?

You ask about who would oppose the Bible, yet you directly oppose My Savior.

That is the height of hypocrisy.

Yes, it is hypocrisy to avoide such a simple question about eternal life, because you refuse to reconcile the scriptures you don’t like.

You won’t escape the Day of Judgement by ignoring the parts of Jesus words you choose to ignore.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?


In Christ = Eternal life

Disconnected from Christ = Disconnected from eternal life








JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Please support your opinion with any verse that says salvation is dependent upon "following Jesus". I know you can't."

This statement shows where you stand.

I certainly hope so. I make every effort to be as clear as possible.

Somehow when you read verses, "We know we know God because we keep Him commands."

Since I DON'T read any verse that way, it seems "somehow" that you just keep coming to very FALSE conclusions about what I believe and how I read.

Do you do this on purpose, or just by accident?

"We love our brothers so love dwells within us" "Be holy" "Be pure"
"Sow to the Spirit and reap eternal life" "Follow Jesus's example" "Follow my example as I follow Jesus's example" "Obey my commandments and I will come and dwell with you" "May you will come to earth as it is in heaven" "The Spirit seals us" "The Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus has come in flesh" "Jesus is our Lord and Saviour" "Obey my words you are building your house upon a rock" "Forgive or you will not be forgiven" "Love fulfils the law" you disbelieve them.

That is a very stupid comment. I believe every verse, unlike yourself.

This means to you Jesus does not want us to follow, and in following change, we just believe and we are saved.

Now your comments are just into the bizarre and delusional sphere.

But it shows you do not believe Jesus.

You are quite wrong, and your comments show just how much you fail to grasp my very clear statements.

If Jesus said "Obey the commandments", that is what we have to do.

That's what I've been agreeing to.

What He meant as Paul explains in love your neighbour, because that is obeying the commandments.

Jesus said "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments" Matt 19:17

I've already explained the context for this statement. If you think obeying the commandments will get you into heaven, I've got some verses for you to chew on.

From Galatians 3-
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

From your comments in just this post of yours, it shows that you yourself do not believe the Bible.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Here we go again. Please support your opinion with any verse that says salvation is dependent upon "following Jesus"

I am amazed at your attitude. Do you really have so much disdain for believers who follow Jesus and obey His word? You language implies such.

Take one simple phrase of Jesus,

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

He is not saying your righteousness as viewed by God, seeing only me, is good enough.
He is saying how you live must be righteous and not hypocrisy as the pharisees lived it.

His example of this is being angry with a brother.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Matt 5:17

Jesus is saying He is empowering His people through love in their hearts, filled with the Holy Spirit to be able to live a life that is not a law breaker. The problem with law breaking is its source or power is the heart, which Jesus is resolving. This sounds strange to those who are defended, hurt and lost, and only seeing a promise in Christ and His actions, but this is the fulfilment of the cross and maturity in Christ.

The view held by some is perfection is never stumbling, but rather perfection is holding love in ones heart and obeying it, following its lead. If one fails, repentance and reconciliation works. It is the walk, that is eternal life, which is fulfilled when we meet Jesus. We only truly know its truth when we meet Him, it is our hope, our faith, our reality.

This is why Paul says he is not saying he does not have faults or issues, but that he presses on towards the goal. It is this tension, which is our life, this reality which is our love.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it is hypocrisy to avoide such a simple question about eternal life

I just ANSWERED your bogus question, for the umpteenth time.

because you refuse to reconcile the scriptures you don’t like.

You just continue to be wrong. There are NO verses that I don't like. What a hoot!!

It's you who won't reconcile the verses that REFUTE your erroneous opinions.

You won’t escape the Day of Judgement by ignoring the parts of Jesus words you choose to ignore.

When are you going to quit ignoring John 10:28 and the FACT that those who receive eternal life shall never perish?

I'm not the one who ignores any verse. Unlike yourself.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?

Yes, yes, yes. Is that clear enough for you? How about yes, yes, yes.

It's your own failure to understand that once sealed with the Holy Spirit, the day of REDEMPTION (not condemnation) is guaranteed for sealed believers. Eph 1:13,14

You're the one who ignores verses that refute your claims.

In Christ = Eternal life

And once IN, by the sealing with the Holy Spirit, the day of REDEMPTION is guaranteed.

Disconnected from Christ = Disconnected from eternal life

Failure to properly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15).

Since our sealing guarantees our inheritance for the day of REDEMPTION, no believer can be removed from Christ. What is removed is fellowship with Him.

Remember my question that you repeatedly refuse to answer?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Well, when a husband beats his wife, just how much fellowship do you think is going on between them? None. They have been removed, separated from fellowship with each other.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Please support your opinion with any verse that says salvation is dependent upon "following Jesus""

I am amazed at your attitude. Do you really have so much disdain for believers who follow Jesus and obey His word?

I've never said as much, nor implied as much.

You language implies such.

It seems you have a big problem with grasping words.

Take one simple phrase of Jesus,

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

He is not saying your righteousness as viewed by God, seeing only me, is good enough.
He is saying how you live must be righteous and not hypocrisy as the pharisees lived it.

Actually, Jesus was speaking of the righteousness that comes by faith in the Messiah, as Abraham did.

His example of this is being angry with a brother.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Matt 5:17

Jesus is saying He is empowering His people through love in their hearts, filled with the Holy Spirit to be able to live a life that is not a law breaker.

No He didn't say or mean that. In fact, when Jesus said that, the Holy Spirit was not universally given to believers, but only very few people. So, you're just confused.

Jesus was saying that rather than abolishing the Law, He came to perfectly obey the Law, which He did, as the ONLY human being to do that. His life fulfilled the Law perfectly.

 

[LightLoveHope]

If you think obeying the commandments will get you into heaven

This is the core of the issue.
We are saying, not obeying Jesus, not having a cleaned heart,not walking righteously in love, means you do not know Him.

We come to eternal life because we have met Jesus and believed Him, and His deeds becoming our atoning sacrifice for sins. As fruit of this we walk in the Spirit and in love, fulfilling the law and inheriting the Kingdom.

To be excluded from the Kingdom is to claim to believe these things but never have the fruit of this new life, by not walking in righteousness.

So we do not hold one earns salvation by ones walk, but the walk is the proof new life has taken place. You appear to want new life despite ones walk and fruit.

It is easy in this use of language to miss the obvious difference in approach.
And it is why we would call your view easy believism.

The walk is not easy, and with an honest heart, working through ones issues one can be victorious. Easy believism is you are ok as you are, you are in the Kingdom, and if you want more reward or points, you can do extra steps, but not essential for qualification.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No He didn't say or mean that. In fact, when Jesus said that, the Holy Spirit was not universally given to believers, but only very few people. So, you're just confused.

Free, you cannot write "He didn't say" when those are the words He used.
And you forget, Jesus spoke all these things, which only took on a different significance after the resurrection. The disciples did not write down Jesus's teaching, but rather were reminded of it when they were baptised in the Holy Spirit.

So I am not confused at all. In many ways I see things clearer now than I have ever before.
My observations are my observations, it is up to the reader to investigate and come to their own conclusions. This is literally how God works.

We only grasp Gods meaning as we personally grow and it becomes relevant. So anger from the heart is a problem, when emotions and the heart are not cleansed and purified. When anger is resolved and put in its proper place, then the fulfilment of Jesus's words can become true. So for most this seems like a impossible suggestion, far outside our knowledge or ability, like words from another planet, which is where I was once.

Actually, Jesus was speaking of the righteousness that comes by faith in the Messiah, as Abraham did.

If you read the sentences, Jesus says here is the righteousness of the pharisees, quotes the commandments, and then shows anger is a problem in the heart and it needs resolving. This is a literal exact example of what being in the Kingdom means, with an open heart, walking in love and ones emotions resolved and functioning properly.

And your comment about righteousness imputed because of faith, is the same righteousness the pharisees had and claimed, just like you, though they lived as hypocrites, teaching obedience while breaking the law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what you quoted from my post:
"If you think obeying the commandments will get you into heaven"

This is the core of the issue.

Well, you actually missed the "core of the issue", because this is all of what I said from my post:

"If you think obeying the commandments will get you into heaven, I've got some verses for you to chew on.

From Galatians 3-
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

From your comments in just this post of yours, it shows that you yourself do not believe the Bible."

So, how come you chose to ignore actual Scripture that proves that you are wrong about your opinions on entering heaven?

We are saying, not obeying Jesus, not having a cleaned heart,not walking righteously in love, means you do not know Him.

Just as you have demonstrated over and over that you don't really know Him, by your disbelief in what He has taught us.

We come to eternal life because we have met Jesus and believed Him, and His deeds becoming our atoning sacrifice for sins.

Again, you really do not understand the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible do we read about "His deeds becoming OUR atoning sacrifice for sins". Are you KIDDING? Yes, I am shouting at you.

It was His atoning sacrifice for OUR sins. As usual, you have it totally backwards.

As fruit of this we walk in the Spirit and in love, fulfilling the law and inheriting the Kingdom.

It our walk in the Spirit that results in eternal reward (inheritance) in the Kingdom.

To be excluded from the Kingdom is to claim to believe these things but never have the fruit of this new life, by not walking in righteousness.

See? You DO think that lifestyle is the key to the kingdom. That is exactly what the Pharisees thought, and they all "died in their sins", according to Jesus. John 8.

So we do not hold one earns salvation by ones walk, but the walk is the proof new life has taken place.

That's NOT what you just said in the previous section. Please re-read what you wrote.

You appear to want new life despite ones walk and fruit.

See again? More Pharisee theology. One's "walk and fruit" refers to behavior and lifestyle. None of which results in new life.

But you would have known that if you had read and believed the verses in Gal 3 that I shared and you ignored.

It is easy in this use of language to miss the obvious difference in approach.
And it is why we would call your view easy believism.

So you believe in "hard believism"? Nonsense.

Apparently you don't believe these words of Jesus either, in Matt 11:30 - For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The walk is not easy, and with an honest heart, working through ones issues one can be victorious.

Please at least read Gal 3 from above. You are clueless regarding all this.

Easy believism is you are ok as you are, you are in the Kingdom, and if you want more reward or points, you can do extra steps, but not essential for qualification.

At least you DO understand the issue that is presented in the Bible.

I've proved that from Scripture.

What you've proven is that you don't believe what the Bible teaches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No He didn't say or mean that. In fact, when Jesus said that, the Holy Spirit was not universally given to believers, but only very few people. So, you're just confused."

Free, you cannot write "He didn't say" when those are the words He used.
And you forget, Jesus spoke all these things, which only took on a different significance after the resurrection. The disciples did not write down Jesus's teaching, but rather were reminded of it when they were baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Just an attempt to "explain away" a verse that you don't understand.

So I am not confused at all. In many ways I see things clearer now than I have ever before.

Maybe you're more than confused.

My observations are my observations, it is up to the reader to investigate and come to their own conclusions. This is literally how God works.

We only grasp Gods meaning as we personally grow and it becomes relevant. So anger from the heart is a problem, when emotions and the heart are not cleansed and purified. When anger is resolved and put in its proper place, then the fulfilment of Jesus's words can become true. So for most this seems like a impossible suggestion, far outside our knowledge or ability, like words from another planet, which is where I was once.

What you fail to understand is that ALL of Jesus' words become true, regardless of anyone's personal experience.

If you read the sentences, Jesus says here is the righteousness of the pharisees, quotes the commandments, and then shows anger is a problem in the heart and it needs resolving. This is a literal exact example of what being in the Kingdom means, with an open heart, walking in love and ones emotions resolved and functioning properly.

When Jesus spoke of the "righteousness of the Pharisees", He was referring to their legalistic adherence to the Law (behavior and lifestyle).

This is what Paul said about that in Rom 9-
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

So when Jesus spoke of a "righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees", He was referring to the words in red, not blue.

So, just like yourself, the Pharisees pursued a righteousness "by the law" and "by works". Your theology is found in the blue words.

Mine is found in the red words.

And your comment about righteousness imputed because of faith, is the same righteousness the pharisees had and claimed, just like you, though they lived as hypocrites, teaching obedience while breaking the law.

No, they NEVER believed in the Messiah. Just read Rom 9:30-33 and learn what they thought.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Again, you really do not understand the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible do we read about "His deeds becoming OUR atoning sacrifice for sins". Are you KIDDING? Yes, I am shouting at you.

It was His atoning sacrifice for OUR sins. As usual, you have it totally backwards.

Free, Here you are, not able to see ownership. Jesus became our atoning sacrifice, so that our sins might be forgiven. Jesus did not need an atoning sacrifice, it was His gift to us.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:2-4

The above verse is interesting. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, yet if one claims that sacrifice and do not obey his commands, one is a liar.

It is very clear, to not obey is to lie about Jesus.

The funniest trick here is to quote we are commanded to believe Jesus, so believing He is that atoning sacrifice, is obeying His commands. This falls down because of the phrase being used to justify it.

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.
1 John 3:23-24

The statement from John, especially states we need to love one another, ie obey His commands, the whole of the law and the prophets, as love is the fulfilment of this.

But hey, unbelievers will always deny the Kingdom, as it has always been so.
As Paul says, if one opposes the commands, one opposes God not man.

Praise the Lord that He is so clear for His people to know how to follow, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What you fail to understand is that ALL of Jesus' words become true, regardless of anyone's personal experience.

You make a statement as if it has meaning. The meaning of the word of God is infinite, with many nuances that over time and experience minister to our hearts. I am just testifying to this reality.

What was telling for me, when I was a teenager, I could read scripture and was aware of the emotions in part being expressed but did not understand what was actually going on. It was an odd experience. Now when I read the words I feel and see some of what Paul is getting at, but still there are aspects I miss. And the complexity is so vast, I see new connections and implications every day. What a King we follow, what a Lord who reigns over all.