2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Free, Here you are, not able to see ownership.

No, you are not able to see ownership.

Jesus became our atoning sacrifice, so that our sins might be forgiven.

That's not what you posted. This is what you posted: "His deeds becoming OUR atoning sacrifice for sins".

Jesus did not need an atoning sacrifice, it was His gift to us.

You're still in error. His sacrifice isn't described as a gift anywhere in the Bible. Where do you get your material? And of course He didn't need an atoning sacrifice. He fulfilled the Law perfectly and completely.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If you really believe this, why did you post, "His deeds becoming OUR atoning sacrifice for sins"?

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:2-4

It seems you're not very familiar with what the Bible says. Given all your errors.

The above verse is interesting. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, yet if one claims that sacrifice and do not obey his commands, one is a liar.

Correct.

Speaking of which; how many of His commands do you obey?
How much do you obey His commands, in percentage: 100%, 90%, 80%, what?

It is very clear, to not obey is to lie about Jesus.

Yes, that is correct. There are many believers who are also liars.

Praise the Lord that He is so clear for His people to know how to follow, Amen.

How can you "praise the Lord" when your theology is just like the Pharisees, by your previous post that one's lifestyle determines whether one enters heaven or not?

Such an idea totally dismisses the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on your behalf.

If our own lifestyle determines entrance into the kingdom, then Jesus died for nothing.

Oh, that reminds me of something.

Gal 2:21 - "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

 

[FreeGrace2]

You make a statement as if it has meaning.

I have to take this as meaning that this is rather unusual, and you don't. But then, many of your statements really don't have meaning, so I guess that's an affirmation of my conclusion.

The meaning of the word of God is infinite, with many nuances that over time and experience minister to our hearts.

No, His words are quite finite. They have a specific meaning. You just want to believe that you have "artistic freedom" to take His words the way you want to take them.

I am just testifying to this reality.

Your views are not reality. They are subjectivity and emotionalism.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You're still in error. His sacrifice isn't described as a gift anywhere in the Bible. Where do you get your material? And of course He didn't need an atoning sacrifice. He fulfilled the Law perfectly and completely.

Are you sinless? According to God in your eyes, you are.
Is this sinless state earned by faith? No. The whole world is sinless.

You will enter heaven because you believe in Jesus, and others will not because they do not believe in Jesus. The trouble is which Jesus and how? Not obedience, not following, not saying the right words, not believing He died for you, and took your sins, because everyones sins have already been taken and washed away. Is it Jesus was a nice guy, or Jesus is the son of God? And how is this exam managed?

The gospel is simple. Walk in obedience to God and He will come and dwell with you. That is Jesus's promise. He said this.

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
John 14:21

This is a promise. A promise. Obey Jesus is to love Him. To obey Jesus means He will show Himself to that believer.

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

So the opposite of this is also true. Those who hate Jesus will disobey Him.
So what of those who claim, to disobey Christ is not evil and rebellion and sin?
They are false teachers and doomed to judgement for the sins that they abide in.
As Hebrews says

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.
Heb 10:26

This verse shows the lie about the worlds sins are forgiven forever, now, today.
If one deliberately continues to sin after one has come to faith, then there is no sacrifice for that sin.

So either this scripture is lying or one has got ones theology wrong.
Worse still, if ones theology is wrong and one claims to be a teacher, and this position is so deep, it is impossible to reverse, how lost is that individual? What hope can there be for them?

I always live in hope. And delusions can be very deep, and emotional blindness is often very persuasive. I will always hope and trust, Gods Holy Spirit will convict, and His word is sharper than a two edged sword.

Our calling has always been to Holiness.

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do 1 Peter 1:15

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Heb 12:14

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, you are not able to see ownership.

Ownership is about applying things to oneself which we are involved in.
Jesus died for me, sacrificed His life so that I can be forgiven and have eternal life.

It needs to be the most personal, deepest experience in my life for it to be effective.
It must ground me, become my life, my death, my breadth, my waking thought, the
one I go to sleep at night having. My whole mind, body, spirit, soul must be in submission
to this eternal reality.

This is what it means to walk in two commandments

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength
'Love your neighbor as yourself' Mark 12:30-31

We all live alone in our own heads. We imagine others understand us, and know what is going on, except that is an assumption. Most do not, maybe two or three do know part. Even a husband and wife though intimate can live in totally different worlds.

God is brutal, totally brutal. Not because there is another way, but because He is Holy and we will die in His presence unless we walk in His ways from our hearts.

He declares His people are made like this

I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Jerm 31:33

Those who feel condemned by this law, the precepts and principles of God, His way of being and dwelling with man, what He approves of and what He condemns, are not people of this covenant, rather they are enemies of it.

We have no excuse when we sin and refuse to repent, because by our refusal we are accepting the punishment for sin, judgement. But Jesus is always there to work with us, if we believe and bow the knee and accept His ways.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Scripture and emotion

Scripture is eternal. Scripture holds up a light and asks us, "What are you doing?"
That is hard to take, as many motives and issues in our hearts are not aligned to God, holiness and purity.
But the closer we get to the way, the easier it is to stand in the light, for we have become beacons of light to the world and to ourselves.

So when people say they feel condemned looking at Gods holy law, they are in darkness and their hearts are far from Him, as testified by their own emotional reaction.

And to avoid this testimony of the need for repentance they will invent the most involved justification for their life staying the same and doing nothing, nothing to resolve things.

This is the foolishness of religious folk and their hypocrisy. God is not silent, and His word that changed the world, founded society and still works through all our deeds and actions, will always find us out.
So stop running and just repent. Humble yourself and accept the way He has given us for life, because the path is easy and the burden is light. Amen, thank you Jesus.

 

[JLB777]

I just ANSWERED your bogus question, for the umpteenth time.

Where what post number?


Was your answer yes or no?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

You just continue to be wrong. There are NO verses that I don't like. What a hoot!!

It's you who won't reconcile the verses that REFUTE your erroneous opinions.

More opinion without an answer.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?


In Christ = Eternal life

Disconnected from Christ = Disconnected from eternal life








JLB

 

[JLB777]

When are you going to quit ignoring John 10:28 and the FACT that those who receive eternal life shall never perish?

I'm not the one who ignores any verse. Unlike yourself.

All you have to do is reconcile verse 27 with verse 28 and stop trying to disconnect the reality of the condition for eternal life with the result.


Now please answer my question.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


If a brother begins to hate his brother, does he still have eternal life remaining in him?



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

You make a statement as if it has meaning. The meaning of the word of God is infinite, with many nuances that over time and experience minister to our hearts. I am just testifying to this reality.

No, His words are quite finite.

How can eternal words be finite?
Jesus declared His words are eternal, without end.

But if you call Jesus words finite then equally if Jesus says you have eternal life it can also mean you could end up with a mortal finite life, which is not eternal after all......

And this has been my point about meaning. A word spoken is spoken with an intent and meaning by the speaker. How we hear it and understand can change its meaning, so we have to be careful and explore the implications, and if necessary compare and contrast with similar information from the same source.

Words can also have unintended meaning, which often happens to songs, written with one idea in mind but the listener sees many others.

And it is this sea of meaning and communication which is the sea upon which God sends us, to use our hearts to steer a path to truth as it is. And for those who think things are so easily defined, here is Jesus on John the Baptist

Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.
But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
Matt 17:11-12

For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Matt 11:13-14

So one could accept John the Baptist was Elijah who was to come, or not, it does not matter.
There are simple principles that rise above others, that are Gods heart, not legalistic nit picking which so many want to do, like an accountant making sure how things are, when the whole place is burning down.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Stubbornness

Some appear to be stubborn even when the facts testify against them.
And we know this is true we a simple explanation is thrown away because it does not fit their model and another which speaks plainly to the situation in hand is ignored without an answer.

Now I would love to be given proper answers to the points raised, but on the other hand if the best argument needs a strong reply I am happy to search deeper for it.

To date we know false teachers are liars, hypocrites, full of thorns and thistles whose aim is to pull down rather than build up. The refuse to confront sin, repent and walk righteously in faith, dreaming up excuses and reasons why this is unnecessary.

Paul was given grace because though he was a sinner it was in ignorance and unbelief

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

What of people who are neither ignorant or unbelieving but just openly walking in darkness and refuse to come into the light or testify to it? For them probably only this fate remains

They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:13

And what were these people originally like
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude 1:4

So these men are godless. How do we recognise godless men? They do not have love for either the brothers or for Jesus's word. Rather they spread condemnation and judgement, standing against righteous deeds, claiming a righteous deed is evil.

They are so deluded they will say a deed done must be for the right reasons, not a deed by itself is a good deed, and those who do good things for the wrong reasons will soon stop doing them, but the good deeds remain. We are not in a point scoring game, where good deeds balance out bad deeds, but good deeds flow from a heart of love, and without a heart of love one is dead. It is the heart of love that matters, and encouraging people to discover this, and the gift Christ gives us is everything.

It is why we encourage good deeds so people might see the source, Jesus and the cross, and go here to find healing and life for themselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you sinless?

No. No one is. The Bible says "all are under sin" and "all have sinned". Rom 3:9, 23.

According to God in your eyes, you are.

This is delusional. Do you have a verse that backs up your statement?

Is this sinless state earned by faith?

No, no one is sinless. Only Jesus Christ is sinless.

No. The whole world is sinless.

Total delusion. Where do you get all this ridiculous stuff? Certainly not the Bible.

You will enter heaven because you believe in Jesus, and others will not because they do not believe in Jesus. The trouble is which Jesus and how?

There is no "trouble". The Jesus of the Bible.

For faith in Jesus to be saving, a person MUST believe that He is the Son of God (Jn 20:31), that He died on the cross for our sins (1 Cor 15:3), and that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it (Jn 5:24, 6:47, 10:28).

Notice that I include Scripture to support what I claim.

Not obedience, not following, not saying the right words, not believing He died for you, and took your sins, because everyones sins have already been taken and washed away.

It's clear that you really don't understand very much of the Bible.

Are you ignorant of the FACT that Jesus told Pharisees that they would "die in their sins" unless they believed that He was the Messiah?
John 8:21, 24.

Is it Jesus was a nice guy, or Jesus is the son of God? And how is this exam managed?

There is no exam.

The gospel is simple. Walk in obedience to God and He will come and dwell with you. That is Jesus's promise. He said this.

Prove it. With verses.

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
John 14:21

This verse says NOTHING about dwelling with believers. It's about those who obey His commands love Him.

Can a person love Jesus when they REFUSE to believe what He says? Like yourself?

This is a promise. A promise.

The promise is about fellowship, not salvation.

Obey Jesus is to love Him. To obey Jesus means He will show Himself to that believer.

For fellowship.

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

The words "make our home" refers to fellowship.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.
Heb 10:26

Scroll back up to v.18. Because of His "once for all" sacrifice, there is no more need for any sacrifice. And v.26 is a warning of God's discipline for those who deliberately rebel.

This verse shows the lie about the worlds sins are forgiven forever, now, today.

Interesting. Your post opened with the nonsense that everyone's sins have been forgiven.

If one deliberately continues to sin after one has come to faith, then there is no sacrifice for that sin.

Correct.

So either this scripture is lying or one has got ones theology wrong.

That would be you.

I always live in hope.

Please explain what you mean by "hope". I know what the Greek word actually means, and it isn't how it's used in today's culture.

And delusions can be very deep, and emotional blindness is often very persuasive.

I've noticed that about you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I just ANSWERED your bogus question, for the umpteenth time."

Where what post number?

Seriously? Aren't you even trying to follow this discussion? Or just rather keep on repeating your very tired talking points?

Was your answer yes or no?

It was a RESOUNDING YES.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?

A RESOUNDING YES.

In Christ = Eternal life

Disconnected from Christ = Disconnected from eternal life

False alert!!! Eph 1:13,14 guarantees an inheritance for the sealed believer, for the day of redemption.

note that the key word is "redemption", not "judgment".

 

[FreeGrace2]

All you have to do is reconcile verse 27 with verse 28 and stop trying to disconnect the reality of the condition for eternal life with the result.

You are the one who is not functioning in reality.

v.27 is a clear description of WHAT Jesus' sheep DO. There are NO conditions for anything in v.27.

v.28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

The red words state the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words state the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is to never perish.

I've given this to you many, many times. And you've repeatedly failed to even address my points, that I color coded for ease of understanding my points.

A person would have to be either color blind or stupid to not follow my points.

So, if you decide, once again, to ignore my points, then at least let the forum know which you are: color blind or stupid.

Now please answer my question.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother begins to hate his brother, does he still have eternal life remaining in him?

A RESOUNDING YES.

Every reasonable and rational person understands that those given eternal life shall never perish. So even a believer who hates another believer STILL HAS eternal life and shall never perish.

But you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Sad.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You make a statement as if it has meaning.

You've already made this silly statement, and I've already responded, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Total delusion. Where do you get all this ridiculous stuff? Certainly not the Bible.

Unfortunately if you believe Jesus died for the sin of the world and resolved it so people are now not going to be judged for sin, because it is now eternally forgiven, this is the foundation to saying the world in sinless.

Now thank you for calling it total delusion.
We stand in Christ, forgiven, cleansed and made Holy. Amen.

But only those who by faith have taken the cross as their atoning sacrifice for their sins.
Only they are forgiven in Christ, shown by their freedom and obedience with an open heart
flowing with the love Jesus has given us, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Unfortunately if you believe Jesus died for the sin of the world and resolved it so people are now not going to be judged for sin, because it is now eternally forgiven, this is the foundation to saying the world in sinless.

But, fortunately, I DON'T believe that. You sure get confused about what I believe, in spite of how much I explain what I believe.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ died for the sins of all of humanity (because the Bible says so repeatedly), and those who believe in Him for salvation receive the gift of eternal life. No one is forgiven of their sins until they believe in Christ (Acts 10:43).

Now thank you for calling it total delusion.

Sure. I'll always call your views of what you think I believe as total delusion when you post what you do.

If you're correct, I'll make note of it as well.

 

[LightLoveHope]

But, fortunately, I DON'T believe that. You sure get confused about what I believe, in spite of how much I explain what I believe.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ died for the sins of all of humanity (because the Bible says so repeatedly), and those who believe in Him for salvation receive the gift of eternal life. No one is forgiven of their sins until they believe in Christ (Acts 10:43).

Sure. I'll always call your views of what you think I believe as total delusion when you post what you do.

If you're correct, I'll make note of it as well.

In your version, believing Jesus is going to save us, we receive eternal life.
What is Jesus saving us from and how?

Is Jesus like a life boat, there to get me out of the water and put me safe on dry land but that is it?

And our sins are forgiven when we believe in Jesus? But if we sin after believing what happens?

I believe, we believe in Jesus, the man, the Lord and Saviour, and do what He tells us to do. He is the one doing the saving and the one who says if you love me you will obey my commands. Salvation is this walk, it is how He saves us. The start is repentance and cleansing, openness and letting love flow.

And because the walk is part of how we are saved, transformed, part of believing, part of being one with Him, if one rebels against this, one has rejected salvation and walked away.

In the Kingdom, out of our own free will we will walk without sinning. But how?
Because we are changed, transformed, and it starts with the Holy Spirit in our hearts and walking His way.

I have heard too many people say obedience does not matter, and faith is the whole point, while there very actions deny the faith they claim to have. As John says

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:4

So are you a liar or a follower of the truth?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your version, believing Jesus is going to save us, we receive eternal life.

So you don't believe this is the biblical view??

What is Jesus saving us from and how?

1. past tense: we were saved from the penalty of sin. Justification.
2. present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification.
3. future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.

Any questions?

Is Jesus like a life boat, there to get me out of the water and put me safe on dry land but that is it?

No.

And our sins are forgiven when we believe in Jesus?

How do you read Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

But if we sin after believing what happens?

We are out of fellowship and cannot bear fruit. It's described as grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

The only solution is found in 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The red words speak to the forgiveness that leads to justification.

The blue words speak to restoration of fellowship.

All justified people have been forgiven of their sins.
But all justified people are not always in fellowship.

If you don't grasp these 2 sentences, you will be unable to grasp the core of the NT.

I have heard too many people say obedience does not matter, and faith is the whole point, while there very actions deny the faith they claim to have. As John says

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:4

Once again you bring up knuckleheads that have no bearing on my discussion with you.

So are you a liar or a follower of the truth?

After all I've posted, this is a most stupid question. You know better.

 

[LightLoveHope]

In your description there is no repentance, conviction of sin and righteous walking, love, confession, testimony.

So I doubt your assumptions and big words.
The cross is significant, and again dying with Christ to the world is missing.

You have believing without involvement. But to me that is not belief, it is a formula.

Sin. You appear to believe it is always present, so no making us Holy, pure or cleansed. So what is the point if the power of Christ is to appear as a saint but not be one?