2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[ICONO'CLAST]

I don't claim to be in either camp. I just claim to be a Bible-believing Christian.

Who have you met who claims to be a NON bible believing Christian?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who have you met who claims to be a NON bible believing Christian?

I’ve met a few who were believers who later became atheist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ve already shown the word for word translation.

You've shown nothing. I've shown the aorist tense, which it seems you're just not willing to accept.

Nothing indicates that believing is past tense.

Again, the aorist tense is the tense of COMPLETED ACTION. Words that end in "ed" indicate past action. I can hardly believe I'm having to explain to an adult.

You said abiding is important but not necessary.

Please define what you mean by "necessary". Necessary for WHAT?

If you really want to know the truth about the Greek lexicon I suggest you speak to some of the Orthodox brothers we have here and see what they have to say on the subject.

I don't need anyone to explain the "truth about the Greek lexicon". I have both textbooks (lexicons) and the internet.

I’m sure your aware the Orthodox Church is somewhat of an authority on Greek interpretation of scripture.

I wouldn't bet on that.

I’m also sure you will reject their interpretation because I believe you are too blinded by pride my friend.

No. Just "blinded" by the truth of the Word.

I’m also certain that you are aware that no church ever taught eternal security until the mid 15th century.

This is exactly WHY I am totally unimpressed with the "Orthodox" brand. That's just nonsense. It's taught all over the Bible. You've seen the evidence, and you've chosen to reject the truth.

Eternal security suggests that all of Christianity was incorrect for the first 1500+ years.

Everyone who rejects eternal security is incorrect.

None of the early church fathers taught eternal security.

And they are among the rejectors of truth.

As I’ve pointed out Jesus said many will turn away from him but those who are vicious and endure to the end will be saved.

Because you continue to refuse to note the context of that, which is the Tribulation, you cannot properly understand the sentence.

To think that someone can believe then later doubt and renounce their faith and still be saved is a very skewed interpretation of the scriptures.

I suggest you tell Jesus that.

He is the One who said those who believe HAVE (current possession) eternal life (Jn 5:24, 6:47) and He is the One who gives eternal life (John 10:28) and those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

Now, reasonable people without unbiblical biases easily understand this as eternal security.

One is eternally secure BECAUSE they have believed and have been given eternal life.

Jesus is not just the Way to life He is a Way of life.

That's true.

When we abide in Him He abides in us.

Yes, this is fellowship.

If we don’t abide in Him He does not abide in us and there is no salvation without Him.

This is where you go off the rails. When out of fellowship, the believer cannot bear fruit.

This is what Jesus taught His 11 faithful apostles the night before He was crucified and it is what all of Christianity has taught for the first 1500 years.

Well, your so-called "Orthodoxy" is quite unorthodox as it is in direct opposition to what Jesus said, and said quite plainly.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You've shown nothing. I've shown the aorist tense, which it seems you're just not willing to accept.

I’ve shown nothing? I’ve shown the word for word translation. You however have shown absolutely nothing concerning the aorist tense you’ve only claimed it to be the case giving absolutely no evidence to support that idea.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please define what you mean by "necessary". Necessary for WHAT?

Necessary for salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, the aorist tense is the tense of COMPLETED ACTION. Words that end in "ed" indicate past action. I can hardly believe I'm having to explain to an adult.

There is no “ed” in the word pisteuo or mē which is why I pointed it out sir.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I’ve met a few who were believers who later became atheist.

Yes...false professors...1 in 2:19

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is exactly WHY I am totally unimpressed with the "Orthodox" brand. That's just nonsense. It's taught all over the Bible. You've seen the evidence, and you've chosen to reject the truth.

You choose to not believe what has been taught and substantiated by the early church fathers.

We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not you, who, when you were a wild olive tree, were grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and were made a partaker of its fatness.

St Iranaeus Adversus Haeresus 180AD
Book 4 Chapter 27 section 2

You will notice, too, that the transgressions of the common people have been described in like manner, not for the sake of those who did then transgress, but as a means of instruction unto us, and that we should understand that it is one and the same God against whom these men sinned, and against whom certain personsdo now transgress from among those who profess to have believed in Him. But this also, [as the presbyter states,] has Paul declared most plainly in the Epistle to the Corinthians, when he says, Brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and were all baptizedunto Moses in the sea, and did all eat the same spiritual meat, and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and the rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. These things were for our example (in figuram nostri), to the intent that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted; neither be idolaters, as were some of them, as it is written: Exodus 32:6 The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them also did, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur, as some of them murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. But all these things happened to them in a figure, and were written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the world (sæculorum) has come. Wherefore let him that thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall.1 Corinthians 10:1, etc.

Matthew 20:16 As then the unrighteous, the idolaters, and fornicators perished, so also is it now: for both the Lord declares, that such persons are sent into eternal fire; Matthew 25:41 and the apostle says, Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, not effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.1 Corinthians 6:9-10 And as it was not to those who are without that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast forth from the kingdom of God, by doing any such thing, he proceeds to say, And such indeed were you; but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. And just as then, those who led vicious lives, and put other people astray, were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in like manner.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes...false professors...1 in 2:19

Consider John 15:1-10. Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles when He says abide (remain) in Me. Anyone who does not abide will be cut off from the vine and cast away into the fire.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ve shown nothing? I’ve shown the word for word translation.

So what? One sentence with a present tense "believe" in it. Why do you keep ignoring the FACT that there are MANY aorist tense "believes" as well?

What do you think the present tense of "believe" even means? You think it means continuously believing? Or the results of a present tense action of belief only occur as long as the belief occur?

Well, anyone who thinks either of these 2 things would be quite wrong.

The Greek present tense is from the perspective of the writer/speaker. So what is being communicated is a CURRENT action only. It says NOTHING about future results depending upon the current action continuing on into the future.

You however have shown absolutely nothing concerning the aorist tense you’ve only claimed it to be the case giving absolutely no evidence to support that idea.

Well, why don't you have a Greek textbook? Or bother the internet? The answer is clear and easy to obtain.

So I'm going to help you out of your ignorance.

Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

You will learn what the present and aorist tense is and means.

But, here is a taste of the site:
For action happening at the present time, only the 'present tense' is available. Whether the writer is wishing in any particular instance to emphasis the progressive aspect of the verb or just indicate a simple occurrence at the present time, there is only one choice of tense to use. Therefore, one must consider the context and the basic meaning of the verb to determine whether the emphasis is on the continuous aspect of the action or merely on the present time element. It may be that no real emphasis on progressive action is intended but, for a statement requiring the element of present time, there is no choice but to use the 'present tense'. (Of course outside the indicative mood the emphasis almost certainly will be on the progressive element of the verb, since the aorist tense could readily be employed). [and since there are many examples of the aorist tense for "believe", there is no sense that results from believing NOW, or in the present, depend on believing to continue.]

If the writer is referring to an action that happened in past time, he could refer to it as either progressive (by using the imperfect tense) or as merely a simple occurrence, with no emphasis on the action's progress (by using the aorist tense).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Necessary for salvation.

That's what I thought, but I needed clear confirmation.

There is only 1 thing necessary for salvation. Faith in Christ. Placing your trust in Him alone to save you. No one else, you included, can save you. Nor can anyTHING else save you.

And you've showed no verses that include works or deeds as being required or necessary for salvation. Why don't you at least admit that?

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Please count the number of verses that mention works or deeds along with faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Again, the aorist tense is the tense of COMPLETED ACTION. Words that end in "ed" indicate past action. I can hardly believe I'm having to explain to an adult."

There is no “ed” in the word pisteuo or mē which is why I pointed it out sir.

Are you not aware that the ONLY WAY to translate the aorist tense is by using the English ending on a word to designate the past tense?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You choose to not believe what has been taught and substantiated by the early church fathers.

You BET I choose to REJECT what the early church fathers taught, but FAILED to substantiate.

Why would anyone be so interested in what any of them thought? We have the Bible itself. That's what I read and study. I don't need those knuckleheads to help me.

Obviously, you must be unaware of these warnings from the Bible:
Acts 15:1 - Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

While circumcision was the issue in that day, today we have the false teaching that unless one has faith PLUS works, they cannot be saved, or unless one has faith PLUS baptism, they cannot be saved, and so on.

Acts 20:
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

That's what I think about the early church fathers. They failed to comprehend what grace is.

St Iranaeus Adversus Haeresus 180AD
Book 4 Chapter 27 section 2

I much prefer chapter and verse from the Bible. God's Word, NOT man's opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Consider John 15:1-10. Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles when He says abide (remain) in Me. Anyone who does not abide will be cut off from the vine and cast away into the fire.

Now, your assignment is to figure out what Jesus meant. Remember that He was using a metaphor here. He wasn't speaking literally.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Consider John 15:1-10. Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles when He says abide (remain) in Me. Anyone who does not abide will be cut off from the vine and cast away into the fire.

If we have a biblical understanding of salvation the issue is resolved.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Lol please ask some of the Orthodox brothers and sisters what the Orthodox Church says on this matter.

Orthodox shmorshodox.
I know plenty of believers with PhD, leader,pastor,deacon and doctorate titles that come before their name's and have been saved for YEARS.......and they don't know squat about the spiritual life and are BABIES in Christ.

SO show us what these "orthodox" believers who "wrote" the Greek say about the aorist tense.

We have proof........... Lexicons, Greek study guides, Greek scholars. Prove em wrong with your 'orthodox' people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You BET I choose to REJECT what the early church fathers taught, but FAILED to substantiate.

Why would anyone be so interested in what any of them thought? We have the Bible itself. That's what I read and study. I don't need those knuckleheads to help me.

Obviously, you must be unaware of these warnings from the Bible:
Acts 15:1 - Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

While circumcision was the issue in that day, today we have the false teaching that unless one has faith PLUS works, they cannot be saved, or unless one has faith PLUS baptism, they cannot be saved, and so on.

Acts 20:
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

That's what I think about the early church fathers. They failed to comprehend what grace is.


I much prefer chapter and verse from the Bible. God's Word, NOT man's opinions.

Those teachings were handed down from the apostles in the churches they established. Adversus Haeresus was written around 180AD. Did the apostles go around establishing churches so that we could ignore their teachings? If your saying they’re false teachings your saying that all of Christianity was teaching falsely because all of the churches taught that salvation is conditional which would mean that for the first 1500 years the gates of hell did prevail until Martin Luther finally came along. Why did the apostles establish churches if all of them were wrong?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If we have a biblical understanding of salvation the issue is resolved.

Indeed

 

[Gr8Grace]

You BET I choose to REJECT what the early church fathers taught, but FAILED to substantiate.

I am waiting for him to start teaching universalism.............It's what the early church 'fathers' taught.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, your assignment is to figure out what Jesus meant. Remember that He was using a metaphor here. He wasn't speaking literally.

I’ve already explained several times. He is warning His 11 faithful apostles that they must abide (remain) in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off (detached or to take off or away what is attached) from the vine (Jesus) cast away (carelessly thrown away or discarded without regard) to wither (dry up or waste away) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire). Which part of this sounds like it ends with salvation?