2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

I think you may have misread my post. My point is that Jesus is speaking directly to His apostles telling them that they must abide in Him.

And every believer is to abide in Him. Which is about fellowship, not relationship.

Sure His message applies to everyone but the message was directed towards His apostles implying that they must abide and produce fruit. There is no question whether these 11 apostles were believers and yet Jesus warns them to abide and produce fruit otherwise they would be cut off from the vine, wither, and cast into the fire.

And I explained what that meant to a 1st Century Jew. They were quite proud of being the "chosen race" of God. Their election was for service, in which they, as a people, failed miserably.

So to be told they would be cut off referred to being cut off from service to God.

Their salvation is not secure it is contingent on abiding.

Yet, Jesus said, BEFORE ch 15, that those He gives eternal life, shall never perish.

I just can't imagine why any professing Christian would so blatantly reject what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verse 27 explains the qualities that His sheep currently possess.

And that is a description of His sheep, not a condition for anything.

They hear His voice, they know Him, and they follow.

Again, just a description of His sheep. Nothing about being a condition for anything.

If someone turns away they are not abiding, they are not following, they are not victorious enduring until the end, they are not His sheep. His sheep follow.

Except v.27 doesn't say anything close to that idea. Nor does any other verse.

How about sharing any verse that clearly says that His sheep can or have become someone else's sheep? Or that His sheep can mystically become goats? Or any other silly idea?

How come you won't address or engage my color coded explanation of v.28?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why don't you just get over this obsession with "the church"? let's just stay with what the Bible SAYS, ok? that's my focus. I couldn't care less about what any church teaches.

Your focus is misplaced. Forget the "church" and focus on Scripture alone.

I am a firm believer in prima scriptura, that the Bible is the ultimate tangible source on God’s Word which is why I support the Orthodox Church and not the Roman Church. However the Holy Spirit is the ultimate authority overall. I still believe that the Holy Spirit does reveal truth to those who are true in their faith. The Bible supports this idea. He is the One who inspired the apostles to reach their conclusions. We are not left alone with only the scriptures to determine what is the truth of God’s Word. The Church of God still remains. It is not lost or gone from existence. When I examined both the history of the Orthodox Church and it’s teachings I was very surprised. I was terribly anti catholic at the time refuting almost everything about the Catholic Church. Then I learned about the schism of 1054 which answered a lot of questions about what actually happened to the original apostolic church and began looking into the doctrinal differences between the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church and found pretty much everything I was refuting was actually Roman Catholic beliefs not Orthodox beliefs. The more I learned about EOC the more impressed I became. It takes more than simply knowing what they believe but also why they believe it to fully understand their teachings. Not that I claim to fully understand the EOC teachings I’m sure I still have much more to learn but it’s definitely been an eye opener for me.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And every believer is to abide in Him. Which is about fellowship, not relationship.

It is most definitely pertaining to salvation. Are you even looking at the Greek definitions I’ve been posting? He doth “take it away” G142 look at the definition pertaining to something that is attached. The branch is something attached to the vine. The branch is not lifted up it is detached or removed from the vine. The words cast forth in Greek mean to throw away or discard without regard or care. Also meaning to throw away violently or intensely. To “wither” meaning to dry up or waste away. How does this add up to still having a relationship with Jesus? Cut off, violently and carelessly thrown away to dry up and waste away and thrown into the fire to be burned.

Yet, Jesus said, BEFORE ch 15, that those He gives eternal life, shall never perish.

I just can't imagine why any professing Christian would so blatantly reject what Jesus said.

Brother your just not looking at it from another perspective. You have to examine all perspectives to test your beliefs. Paul said we must test our beliefs and hold to that which is good. That’s why I came to CF so I could get other perspectives and examine other people’s beliefs. And this is where it has brought me to. The Orthodox teaching stands up to all the scriptures without contradiction.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Except v.27 doesn't say anything close to that idea. Nor does any other verse.

How about sharing any verse that clearly says that His sheep can or have become someone else's sheep? Or that His sheep can mystically become goats? Or any other silly idea?

I have been constantly showing you John 15:1-10 where Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles (His sheep) if they don’t abide (continue to follow) in Him He will not abide in them. Hopefully I don’t need to go over the consequences mentioned in verse 6 again. Ya know the whole cut off from the vine thing and thrown away violently and carelessly to dry up and waste away and thrown into the fire to be burned (consumed). If they don’t continue to follow they are not abiding.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It’s really quite simple the Orthodox Church does not teach eternal security.

Uhm.....I know that. Which is contrary to HIS word and HIS Church.

They have always taught conditional salvation.

Uhm......I know that. Which is why I disagree, HE( You know the Lord Jesus Christ?) teaches Eternal security. John 10:28

The aorist tense is irrelevant because the church has always taught that a person must presently believe in order to be saved.

EXACTLY! "Your " church can't look into the facts of His word.......Because they have a false teaching to adhere to.They have to deny the aorist tense because it is another nail in their false teaching coffin.

A person who believed at one time then turns to doubt God and doesn’t repent will not be saved.

Humor me.....Provide a verse.

So please do explain how the church taught that everyone would be saved regardless of believing in Jesus or not.

HIS church never taught such a twisted teaching. Many of the early "church fathers" taught it though.........Just google it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Uhm.....I know that. Which is contrary to HIS word and HIS Church.

Uhm......I know that. Which is why I disagree, HE( You know the Lord Jesus Christ?) teaches Eternal security. John 10:28


EXACTLY! "Your " church can't look into the facts of His word.......Because they have a false teaching to adhere to.They have to deny the aorist tense because it is another nail in their false teaching coffin.


Humor me.....Provide a verse.

HIS church never taught such a twisted teaching. Many of the early "church fathers" taught it though.........Just google it.

I don’t attend an Orthodox Church. Technically im a nondenominational. I just happen to agree with their teachings. The Orthodox Church doesn’t need to look to the Bible for answers it was established by the apostles themselves. You know...the guys that actually wrote the Bible?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Uhm.....I know that. Which is contrary to HIS word and HIS Church.

Uhm......I know that. Which is why I disagree, HE( You know the Lord Jesus Christ?) teaches Eternal security. John 10:28


EXACTLY! "Your " church can't look into the facts of His word.......Because they have a false teaching to adhere to.They have to deny the aorist tense because it is another nail in their false teaching coffin.


Humor me.....Provide a verse.

HIS church never taught such a twisted teaching. Many of the early "church fathers" taught it though.........Just google it.

How’s that universalism info coming along? Can we be expecting that any time soon?

 

[JLB777]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If by "brother" you are referring to a person who has believed in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then we know that Jesus gave him eternal life.

No, your baseless claims are worthless. Are you trying to say here that Jesus doesn't give believers eternal life, or that "brother" refers to someone who who does something other than believe in Christ for salvation, or what, exactly?

Unlike yourself, I provide verses that support my claims, so they aren't opinions, they are what Scripture says.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Calling scripture baseless is why you are so deceived.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

So stop twisting what you say. You say we don't have eternal life until the judgement.

Then in the next breath ask us to explain how someone doesn't have eternal now.

Your twisting.......not me.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


If you believe John is wrong and people who hate their brother still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says people who hate their brother has eternal life in them.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am a firm believer in prima scriptura, that the Bible is the ultimate tangible source on God’s Word which is why I support the Orthodox Church and not the Roman Church.

I, otoh, reject the doctrines of both. Because of their misunderstandings of Scripture.

However the Holy Spirit is the ultimate authority overall. I still believe that the Holy Spirit does reveal truth to those who are true in their faith.

No, not "their faith", but THE faith. What the Bible says. Now how some may interpret it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this regarding John 15;1-6
"And every believer is to abide in Him. Which is about fellowship, not relationship."

It is most definitely pertaining to salvation.

You are free to your own opinions, but they are wong on this point.

[QUOITE] Are you even looking at the Greek definitions I’ve been posting?[/QUOTE]
Said the one who ignores the clear meaning of the aorist tense, as well as the present tense. I look at Greek definitions far more than you seem to.

He doth “take it away” G142 look at the definition pertaining to something that is attached. The branch is something attached to the vine. The branch is not lifted up it is detached or removed from the vine. The words cast forth in Greek mean to throw away or discard without regard or care. Also meaning to throw away violently or intensely. To “wither” meaning to dry up or waste away.

OK, let's consider these metaphors. They aren't literal, but you're just bound and determined to force them into that.

What's the purpose of a branch? To serve the farmer by providing fruit. Again, Jesus' words are about how to bear fruit; by abiding in Him.

If that command determines one's salvation, then one is saved by their own actions, which is totally against Scripture.

We are chosen to serve. We are commanded to serve. We are "called" (invited) to serve. Are you getting the picture?

How does this add up to still having a relationship with Jesus?

I think you are confusing 2 words here; relationship and fellowship.

So, I'll provide an excellent example. Parent and child.

That is a permanent relationship. You cannot undo your physical birth.

now, IN this relationship, there may be either harmony or disharmony at any given time.

When there is harmony, that is what fellowship is. But, when there is disharmony, that is lack of fellowship. So, in the Christian life, IN our relationship with Christ, we are, at any given moment, either IN or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord.

Does the EOC teach this?

Now, when a believer is IN fellowship with the Lord, they CAN and WILL bear fruit.

But, when a believer is OUT OF fellowship with the Lord, they CANNOT and WILL NOT bear fruit.

Cut off, violently and carelessly thrown away to dry up and waste away and thrown into the fire to be burned.

All a farming metaphor about being taken out of service.

Now, there are ample examples of believers who have died for their failure to bear fruit.

1 Cor 5:5, 10:30, Acts 5, 1 John 5:16.

Brother your just not looking at it from another perspective.

Why would I look at anything other than from the perspective of Scripture????

You have to examine all perspectives to test your beliefs.

By knowing the Bible's perspective, I don't need to examine any other one.

Paul said we must test our beliefs and hold to that which is good.

And what he's saying is to make sure your beliefs line up with Scripture.

That’s why I came to CF so I could get other perspectives and examine other people’s beliefs. And this is where it has brought me to. The Orthodox teaching stands up to all the scriptures without contradiction.

Have you noticed that I support all of my claims and beliefs FROM Scripture?

And you just make claims. Without Scripture.

Your beliefs and perspective HAVE BEEN examined by me. And found wanting.

And you continue to ignore my color coded explanation of Johbn 10:28, which demonstrates your inability to refute my views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have been constantly showing you John 15:1-10 where Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles (His sheep) if they don’t abide (continue to follow) in Him He will not abide in them.

And I have been constantly explaining what that means.

Hopefully I don’t need to go over the consequences mentioned in verse 6 again.

Hopefully, you'll start getting the point.

Ya know the whole cut off from the vine thing and thrown away violently and carelessly to dry up and waste away and thrown into the fire to be burned (consumed). If they don’t continue to follow they are not abiding.

Yep. And NONE of this refers to loss of salvation.

How come you don't realize that if what you claim were true, then John 10:28 cannot be true, and that would make Jesus a LIAR?

Is that your goal?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t attend an Orthodox Church. Technically im a nondenominational. I just happen to agree with their teachings. The Orthodox Church doesn’t need to look to the Bible for answers it was established by the apostles themselves. You know...the guys that actually wrote the Bible?

Well, this certainly puts everything into perspective!! The EOC doesn't "need to look to the Bible for answers". But your reasoning is quite unreasonable, which you don't even realize.

But thanks for the honesty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Calling scripture baseless is why you are so deceived.
JLB

You sure do misunderstand a whole lot.

I never even suggested that any Scripture is baseless. What I have very clearly stated is that your opinions and claims are baseless. Because they can't be found in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If you believe John is wrong and people who hate their brother still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says people who hate their brother has eternal life in them.
JLB

When are you going to make up your mind and stick with just one view on when one has eternal life?

You used to argue that eternal life was given at "the judgment", which obviously will be after one dies physically.

Now you seem to be arguing that believers who hate their brothers no longer HAVE eternal life in them.

So, which is it?

Do you even know?

 

[JLB777]

You sure do misunderstand a whole lot.

I never even suggested that any Scripture is baseless. What I have very clearly stated is that your opinions and claims are baseless. Because they can't be found in Scripture.

Still waiting for you to provide a scripture that says if someone hates his brother he still has eternal life dwelling in them.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

When are you going to make up your mind and stick with just one view on when one has eternal life?

You used to argue that eternal life was given at "the judgment", which obviously will be after one dies physically.

Now you seem to be arguing that believers who hate their brothers no longer HAVE eternal life in them.

So, which is it?

Do you even know?

Still waiting for you to provide a scripture that says if someone hates his brother he still has eternal life dwelling in them.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Still waiting for you to provide a scripture that says if someone hates his brother he still has eternal life dwelling in them.
JLB

You've made quite clear that you don't believe what Jesus said about who CURRENTLY POSSESSES eternal life, and that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH, so all you've done is reject what the Bible says about this. But you've been shown, over and over.

Regarding current possession of eternal life:
John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13

Regarding recipients of eternal life:
John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace2]

Still waiting for you to provide a scripture that says if someone hates his brother he still has eternal life dwelling in them.


JLB

See post #379.