2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Immortal sinners will come to a sticky burnt end and find they were not immortal after all.

Define one of those "immortal sinners" please.

How about sinners who have been given eternal life? What will their end be in your theology?

Dorothy Mae · Nov 2, 2018

JLB777 said:
To those who have closed their eyes to the truth, much of God’s word is indeed unrecognizable.

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Matthew 13:12

JLB

Seems to be the case. it looks like a kind of blindness whereby they only see the gift they believe they got with no to little thought about the Giver.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 2, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Immortal sinners will come to a sticky burnt end and find they were not immortal after all.

Or they are immortal and wished they weren’t

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Seems to be the case. it looks like a kind of blindness whereby they only see the gift they believe they got with no to little thought about the Giver.

This is quite a ridiculous statement.

Of course those given eternal life gave GREAT THOUGHT to the Savior. They actually placed their FULL FAITH in Him for saving them.

How is that "little to no thought"?

You need to grow up and stop the false judgment towards those you disagree with.

But, more important, why do you reject the clear message of John 10:28? What gives?

LightLoveHope · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Define one of those "immortal sinners" please.

How about sinners who have been given eternal life? What will their end be in your theology?

Where are evil doers doomed to go?

There is a big difference between those committed to following Jesus and walking in His ways, and those who are committed to continue sinning and believe God will still deliver them.

All God has declared is for those who obey Him, and none for those who hate Him and live in rebellion. Ofcourse there will always be fakers, but those who think they can get by God, obviously have never met Him.

To put it mildly, a prophet who crosses God is toast. Past behaviour does not guarantee future performance or acceptance. It is not an exam, it is about dwelling in love and walking with the King.

LightLoveHope · Nov 2, 2018

A prophet was commanded as follows
'For I was commanded by the word of the LORD: 'You must not eat bread or drink water or return by the way you came.' 1Kings 13:9

The old prophet answered, "I too am a prophet, as you are. And an angel said to me by the word of the LORD: 'Bring him back with you to your house so that he may eat bread and drink water.'" (But he was lying to him.)

He cried out to the man of God who had come from Judah, "This is what the LORD says: 'You have defied the word of the LORD and have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you.
You came back and ate bread and drank water in the place where he told you not to eat or drink. Therefore your body will not be buried in the tomb of your fathers.'"

As he went on his way, a lion met him on the road and killed him, and his body was thrown down on the road, with both the donkey and the lion standing beside it.
Kings 13:21-22, 24

How more clear does God have to be to His own disobedient people. God cannot be mocked, and to claim blessing while rebelling against Him, is to wish judgement on yourselves.

The Lord does not need to make an example of people who listen to delusion, because their fate is sealed.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

I asked this:
"Define one of those "immortal sinners" please.

How about sinners who have been given eternal life? What will their end be in your theology?"

But instead of answers, I got this:

LightLoveHope said:
Where are evil doers doomed to go?

Really? You can't define a word you made up? So, what is an immortal sinner?

Second, was my question about sinners who have been given eternal life too difficult for you? Or do you just not know, or would rather not admit where you think they go?

However, to your question, you're going to have to give me some additional information before I can answer it.

Regarding "evil doers"; are you referring to one that never believed in Jesus Christ and therefore never received the gift of eternal life?

Or, are you referring to one who has believed in Jesus Christ and therefore has received the gift of eternal life?

Until you provide answers to these questions, your duestion cannot be answered from the biblical perspective.

There is a big difference between those committed to following Jesus and walking in His ways, and those who are committed to continue sinning and believe God will still deliver them.

Yes, their lives are in totally opposite directions, for sure. Is that what you meant?

All God has declared is for those who obey Him, and none for those who hate Him and live in rebellion.

It seems there are some words missing from this sentence, so I cannot figure out your comment or point. Please re-read and correct. Thanks.

Ofcourse there will always be fakers, but those who think they can get by God, obviously have never met Him.

I remain amazed that you continue to bring up irrelevant people.

To put it mildly, a prophet who crosses God is toast.

White, wheat, or rye? With or without butter? With or without jam? What are you talking about?

How about some actual biblical concepts. Was this "prophet" you speak of a believer in the Messiah or a false prophet?

Past behaviour does not guarantee future performance or acceptance.

True, but, more than that, past belief does not guarantee future performance. I don't know what you mean by "acceptance". That word has a wide range of possibilities.

It is not an exam, it is about dwelling in love and walking with the King.

Uh, "what" is, exactly? You speak in vague terms so I can't figure out what you are actually referring to.

Please speak in clear terms, and without metaphors, figures of speech (toast) or just plain vague language.

Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 2, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
A prophet was commanded as follows
'For I was commanded by the word of the LORD: 'You must not eat bread or drink water or return by the way you came.' 1Kings 13:9

The old prophet answered, "I too am a prophet, as you are. And an angel said to me by the word of the LORD: 'Bring him back with you to your house so that he may eat bread and drink water.'" (But he was lying to him.)

He cried out to the man of God who had come from Judah, "This is what the LORD says: 'You have defied the word of the LORD and have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you.
You came back and ate bread and drank water in the place where he told you not to eat or drink. Therefore your body will not be buried in the tomb of your fathers.'"

As he went on his way, a lion met him on the road and killed him, and his body was thrown down on the road, with both the donkey and the lion standing beside it.
Kings 13:21-22, 24

How more clear does God have to be to His own disobedient people.

I could not agree with you more here! This is a clear example of what 1 John 5:16 calls the "sin unto death". It's God's discipline towards His children who are rebellious/disobedient. They die physically, and not exactly peacefully.

Your example above shows that. But also, consider 1 Cor 5:1-5 and the incestous man. And read v.5 carefully. Paul was turning the guy over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". Do you understand what that refers to? Death at the hands of Satan. Does Satan know how to torture to the max? You bet he does.

So you don't have to assume that OSAS leads to carnality. Those who partake of that will not get away with anything. And Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is PAINFUL.

God cannot be mocked, and to claim blessing while rebelling against Him, is to wish judgement on yourselves.

Absolutely!!

The Lord does not need to make an example of people who listen to delusion, because their fate is sealed.

The Lord will make an example of whosoever He wants to make an example.

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You were demanding a verse where Jesus said the words "eternal security",

Yes asking for a verse where Jesus said you are eternally secure the moment you believe, without ever obeying me or loving me or loving my people.

Because that is the filth you are promoting with no scriptural validation.

This one scripture totally destroys your false doctrine of disobedience spawned in the bowels of hell.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
How about sinners who have been given eternal life? What will their end be in your theology?"

They will exist forever in the lake of fire.

LightLoveHope · Nov 3, 2018

When is a tree a tree?
When it is fully grown.

A fully grown tree is spiritual terms is to be like Jesus.
Jesus declares only through repentance, change of mind, heart and behaviour, filled with the Holy Spirit, walking in His ways, obeying His commands, letting love flow from our hearts.

This means
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do
1 Peter 1:15

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:17

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:7-8

The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:16

This is our goal in Christ Jesus. Declaring that it does not matter if you give up on the walk and walk away, is the exact opposite of these realities, and is not acceptable in the Kingdom of Heaven. It is like saying when climbing a mountain, jumping off the cliff is the same as reaching the top. It is exactly the opposite and of no value.

Those who faith does not extend to God having the ability to changes us and build us so we can walk like Him, appear to want to oppose the the very words of God and His promises for those who overcome, so while claiming to love Jesus become His enemies.

I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 3:11-12

LightLoveHope · Nov 3, 2018

Why is it that sins possess the sinner?
Because sins are a desire out of place, taking something that is not deserved or rightfully earnt or given. So without boundaries, if you can take a small amount, why not take everything?

So there lies the rot. A desire can then corrupt and dominate the whole, because the argument for keeping the desire in check has gone. So the desire grows and destroys the person, enslaving them more and more as the power increases.

The phrase absolute power corrupts absolutely is true because once a desire is fulfilled, and the reference points lost, it grows without sense of reference. So anyone who falls into this trap, becomes a monster, while at the start they would say it could never happen, by the end they cannot see the evil they have become.

It is why no one can compromise with sin.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2018

JLB777 said:
Yes asking for a verse where Jesus said you are eternally secure the moment you believe, without ever obeying me or loving me or loving my people.

May I introduce you to a bit of objective reality?

John 10:28 says those given eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. If you don't grasp that the 2 connected words "NEVER PERISH" IS eternal security, I cannot help you.

Because that is the filth you are promoting with no scriptural validation.

It is worse than delusional to describe what Jesus taught as "filth". You should immediately go to your bathroom and scrub out your mouth with soap.

The Scriptural validation is John 10:28. Your denial doesn't change anything.

This one scripture totally destroys your false doctrine of disobedience spawned in the bowels of hell.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

This is laughable. John 10:28 clearly STATES that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5;11,13 all say that eternal life is possessed by whoever believes. Therefore, from the MOMENT one believes, they shall never perish.

Only an ignorant moron wouldn't see and understand this.

Or, someone who just hates what the Bible very plainly says.

But, take your pick. Moron, or hater.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2018

I asked:
"How about sinners who have been given eternal life? What will their end be in your theology?""

JLB777 said:
They will exist forever in the lake of fire.

Yes, thanks for your brutal honesty in rejecting the very words of Jesus Christ, who said that those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life, and shall never perish.

So, they'll "exist" with their gift of eternal LIFE in a place called the "second death" in Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14 and 21:8.

Real brilliant, huh. No, eternal LIFE is LIFE, not DEATH. Those given the gift shall never perish, which is clear that you hate the very idea.

So, congratulations on directly opposing the Savior when there is no excuse for doing so.

Whatever else you may do, please don't call yourself a Christian. Very bad advertising for Christianity to have professing Christians directly opposing the One they supposedly have believed in.

How can one really believe in Him and yet directly oppose His clear words? Please explain.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
When is a tree a tree?
When it is fully grown.

It is a tree way before that.

A fully grown tree is spiritual terms is to be like Jesus.

I would like to see a verse that supports your claim.

Jesus declares only through repentance, change of mind, heart and behaviour, filled with the Holy Spirit, walking in His ways, obeying His commands, letting love flow from our hearts.

Can you describe how one is filled with the Holy Spirit? And use Scripture to guide your answer.

This means
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do
1 Peter 1:15

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:17

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:7-8

The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:16

This is our goal in Christ Jesus.

Exactly. To grow up in our salvation (1 Pet 2:2).

Declaring that it does not matter if you give up on the walk and walk away, is the exact opposite of these realities, and is not acceptable in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Since I've NEVER said that "it does not matter...", please stop insinuating that I have.

It is like saying when climbing a mountain, jumping off the cliff is the same as reaching the top. It is exactly the opposite and of no value.

Your comments here are the exact opposite of what I believe about spiritual growth and aree of no value.

I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 3:11-12

This is all about eternal reward. Know why? Because of what Jesus said in Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

And we know that salvation is NOT based on what we have done.

Eph 2;8,9 - 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

LightLoveHope · Nov 3, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Since I've NEVER said that "it does not matter...", please stop insinuating that I have.

I am not insinuating you do anything. I am making the point that giving up matters.
You say believing you are immortal is not a license to sin. You are wrong. A license is something that means you are allowed to behave in a particular way if you desire to. You do not have to exercise the "license" but it is there.

The opposite of a license is a fine or a penalty.

Unfortunately this whole concentration on failure is depressing, demotivating, raises disputes and arguments, encourages those with problems to just stay as they are. The whole reason for the cross is it is there to transform us, change us, be an eternal statement that there is no giving up.

You asked me about being like Jesus. I am not yet like Jesus, I am working towards the goal. So few even know what it means to follow, or what meekness, mourning, hunger and thirsting for righteousness, peacemaking actually is, let alone desiring to make this part of their lives.

The teaching of many is like having a treasure box full of great things and just keeping it locked away, with the knowledge it is there if you want to take a look, but you have more important things to do.

LightLoveHope · Nov 3, 2018

And on the issue of security.

If one person says the sermon on the mount is just condemning, I cannot even read it, but it does not matter I am in Christ, the foundations as to why they say this are wrong.

Worse still if that same person then raises themselves up, claiming to know the fellowship of God, and condemn me as a worker of the enemy, needing to be converted, and will try and use any tactic to provoke an angry response while being consumed in anger.

This is the fruit of security with the walk, a covering of righteousness without partaking in righteousness and being cleansed in the heart. And the trigger words for these folk, love matters, we need to follow and obey. It is so blindingly obvious, they are defeated in sin, and mold their view to excuse their self indulgences, while claiming they are just being honest, the "religious" are just being hypocrites.

My question to anyone who believes this way, is how much do you feel? Who do you love? Not I like, but really love. How many people know you, your mannerisms, your passions, your history.
It is easy to live alone, cut off from others and invent a world where we are king. And in this world hurts, pain, conflict do not exist because we have eliminated any possibility of it coming in to our experience. Not surprisingly these "I am ok as I am" folk are often living a shell existence without integrated relationships which require love, passion, life and the heart of Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I am not insinuating you do anything. I am making the point that giving up matters.

I agree, but it never results in losing salvation.

You say believing you are immortal is not a license to sin.

You are the one who keeps using the word "immortal", not me. In fact, I've never used the word in forums. So it seems you are just making huge assumptions rather than finding truth.

You are wrong. A license is something that means you are allowed to behave in a particular way if you desire to.[/QUOTE]
Do you seriously think that believers are not permitted to sin? What, then, was Paul talking about in Romans 6 and 7 about his struggles with sin?

And why did he write Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

You do not have to exercise the "license" but it is there.

Instead of using the wrong word "license", let's just be honest and call it what it is: free will. God created humanity with free will. To either accept Him or reject Him.

The opposite of a license is a fine or a penalty.

Not really. Many people drive without a license and never get caught. So your analogy falls apart.

You asked me about being like Jesus. I am not yet like Jesus, I am working towards the goal.

No one will be "like Jesus" until the resurrection.

1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

LightLoveHope · Nov 5, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No one will be "like Jesus" until the resurrection.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Cor 5:17-21

We are already like Jesus, not in His eternal resurrected body, but in our hearts, in our love which Jesus has put within us. The message of God, the gospel, is we were never far away from Him, our hearts burn with the very realities that are His, but we need cleansing, we need being made whole, we need purification, we need to understand who we are.

If we maintain our hearts are good enough as they are, defended, proud, self sufficient, able to stand alone, we are lost, because He can do nothing to save us.

Once we realise this is the cross, pain and suffering with love, we realise, it is His eternal love that makes all the pain, suffering and rejection ok, because it is sin in others that causes this, confusion and distortion, seeing the enemy in another and not love at work. Love overcomes, takes the immovable and releases that which He created in us, to new life.
And it is our own hurt used as an excuse to hurt others from with sin gains its root. The enemy are not worthy of respect, they are so evil, my hate is justified, while not seeing we are that enemy, we are condemning ourselves, and the very loathing we keep destroys us while we convince ourselves we are right even though each blow destroys another part of who we are.

So in the Holy Spirit we are like Jesus. The lie of the enemy is to deny this gift through the cross, and continually remind the believer of their struggles and need for growth, picking each issue as a weapon, rather than the next area to see love work through and conquer and build something new.

LightLoveHope · Nov 5, 2018

21.Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23. if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Col 1:21-23

In all things to be like Christ, is to continue in ones faith in Him.
God knows how we will stumble, which is why the temple with continual sacrifices was created. It is a journey with a goal, upon which the battle between what we are in our body, genetics, personality, disposition and what we choose in Christ to let Him make us become is our destiny. As a farmer plants seeds and harvests the crop at the end, so we are the good fruit, the sheep who follow and obey, and our concern is for our fellow sheep and the Lord, letting His light shine to all, no matter who they might be.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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