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2 Peter 3:10-12. Not when but how?

sovereigngrace

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But Peter leaves us in no doubt.

Yet there are biblical statements that also make it possible that it's referring to the fire coming down from heaven at the close of a literal millennium.

How important is corroboration in your approach to understanding Scripture, especially Revelation?
 
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Zao is life

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What scriptures reference that because I am unfamiliar with those passages?
2 Peter 3
7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness,
12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat?
 
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Zao is life

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How important is corroboration in your approach to understanding Scripture, especially Revelation?
Quite evidently more important than yours. I don't keep on reading things into the text that are not in the text.

Like the resurrection in Christ of the dead who were never in Christ, never in the Ark.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Quite evidently more important than yours. I don't keep on reading things into the text that are not in the text.

Like the resurrection in Christ of the dead who were never in Christ, never in the Ark.

Why have you become so nasty and defensive today?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Quite evidently more important than yours. I don't keep on reading things into the text that are not in the text.

Like the resurrection in Christ of the dead who were never in Christ, never in the Ark.

Ok, then, what Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention “resurrection days” (plural), pertaining to the end?
 
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sovereigngrace

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2 Peter 3
7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness,
12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat?

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

This is telling us that what we know as the earth (or where we live) “shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10) when Jesus comes as a thief. The ground is going to be “dissolved” (2 Peter 3:11).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi David,

Actually I believe the Day of the Lord (God Almighty) starts when the Russian`s invade Israel. After God deals with them, then Israel will celebrate Purim, (National deliverance) and a bit later will be the Peace Treaty. Thus the trib, as I see it does not start immediately at the DOL.

The DOL is a time period (as Peter said) & a specific Day when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and deal vengeance upon the rebellious.
Where did Peter say that the day of the Lord is a time period?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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2 Peter 3
7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness,
12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat?
You posted this in response to a question regarding this comment that you had made:

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Yet there are biblical statements that also make it possible that it's referring to the fire coming down from heaven at the close of a literal millennium.
So, where in 2 Peter 3:7-12 does it indicate the possibility of "the fire coming down from heaven at the close of a literal millennium"? If the fire Peter talked about in that passage occurred at the close/end of the thousand years, then what do you make of Revelation 20:7-9? How could Satan's little season follow what is described in 2 Peter 3:7-12?

Also, if the fire Peter talked about does not come down at the return of Christ, but instead comes down at a later time, then what is the reason that Peter warned his readers about paying attention to what kind of conversations they were having and how they were living their lives (see verses 11-12)? He was warning them about an event that could potentially affect them if it happened in their lifetimes, was he not? It couldn't possibly happen in their lifetimes (or in the lifetimes of anyone reading that text before Christ's return) if it's supposed to happen long after Christ returns.
 
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Marilyn C

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Where did Peter say that the day of the Lord is a time period?

Day: Gk. `hemera,` meaning time, ie the time space between dawn and dark or the whole 24 hours, fig. a period, always defined by the context.
 
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Zao is life

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Why have you become so nasty and defensive today?
No, I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way. I'm not angry. Just chasing your case and trying to challenge you to look at things from a different angle because you're stuck (literally stuck) in a false assumption (or two: like 2 resurrections), things which you have obviously for a very long time believed is biblical, and won't get broken out of until you actually go and read each and every New Testament verse talking about resurrection, checking the Greek word used, and answering the question "is this talking about the resurrection of the body, or of the spiritual regeneration?" (which is also a biblical fact).

So when you adopt the posture of "Teacher, Teacher" and say things like, "How good is your corroboration with New Testament?", I have to throw that back at you in order to challenge you, because your corroboration with N.T scripture on certain things is clearly not that good, because if it was, you wouldn't be saying the things you say. But my method wasn't working so I'll stop it, because it just makes you think I'm being nasty.

Peace brother.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way. I'm not angry. Just chasing your case and trying to challenge you to look at things from a different angle because you're stuck (literally stuck) in a false assumption (or two: like 2 resurrections), things which you have obviously for a very long time believed is biblical, and won't get broken out of until you actually go and read each and every New Testament verse talking about resurrection, checking the Greek word used, and answering the question "is this talking about the resurrection of the body, or of the spiritual regeneration?" (which is also a biblical fact).

So when you adopt the posture of "Teacher, Teacher" and say things like, "How good is your corroboration with New Testament?", I have to throw that back at you in order to challenge you, because your corroboration with N.T scripture on certain things is clearly not that good, because if it was, you wouldn't be saying the things you say. But my method wasn't working so I'll stop it, because it just makes you think I'm being nasty.

Peace brother.

I am challenged all the time and enjoy that. What I asked was a simple and reasonable question. I was trying to initiate a conversation. All I got in response was a curt cold response.

It is amazing how difficult it is to get non Amils to talk about corroboration. That is because it is the Achilles heel of Premil.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Day: Gk. `hemera,` meaning time, ie the time space between dawn and dark or the whole 24 hours, fig. a period, always defined by the context.
Again, where did Peter indicate that the day of the Lord is a period of time? Your response does not answer that question.
 
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DavidPT

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I am challenged all the time and enjoy that. What I asked was a simple and reasonable question. I was trying to initiate a conversation. All I got in response was a curt cold response.

It is amazing how difficult it is to get non Amils to talk about corroboration. That is because it is the Achilles heel of Premil.


I think I requested corroboration concerning the following in the past. Don't think I ever received it, though. Both the OT and NT is holy writ. If it is your opinion that there are zero unsaved survivors remaining post the 2nd coming, how about proving that using both testaments, not just one testament instead? But until you do that first, you shouldn't be complaining about others like you are here, in regards to corroboration.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think I requested corroboration concerning the following in the past. Don't think I ever received it, though. Both the OT and NT is holy writ. If it is your opinion that there are zero unsaved survivors remaining post the 2nd coming, how about proving that using both testaments, not just one testament instead? But until you do that first, you shouldn't be complaining about others like you are here, in regards to corroboration.

I will take that as a concession that you have absolutely nothing in the NT outside of your misunderstanding of one highly-debated chapter in the most obscure setting in the whole of Scripture.

The OT outlines the Amil position in very powerful and detailed detail. It shows that the coming of the Lord will be fiery and climactic. There will be no survivors. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

2 Samuel 22:9: There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.”

Job 41:20-21: “Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.”

Psalm 18:7-8: “the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.”

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, “Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5: “But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”

Isaiah 13:9-11: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars (kowkab) of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth! The whole description indicates this corrupt earth and the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more when Jesus comes.

Isaiah 30:33: “For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Nahum 1:1, 5-6 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemiesThe mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi 4:1 says, For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student. No wicked survive. We are looking at utter and wholesale destruction. That is because the wicked are not qualified to inherit the new earth. Mortals are not welcome. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

All of these Old Testament passages agree with the climactic New Testament detail pertaining to the second coming that proves the Amil paradigm. What do you have? Nothing! All you have is the misinterpretation of one apocalyptic passage. That is theologically insane and abysmal hermeneutics. Your understanding of the same conflicts with multiple Old Testament and New Testament passages that show the coming of Christ to be the end.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think I requested corroboration concerning the following in the past. Don't think I ever received it, though. Both the OT and NT is holy writ. If it is your opinion that there are zero unsaved survivors remaining post the 2nd coming, how about proving that using both testaments, not just one testament instead? But until you do that first, you shouldn't be complaining about others like you are here, in regards to corroboration.

So, I took the time to present hard, direct and irrefutable OT evidence to address your challenge and support the Amil position and you do not even have the courtesy to acknowledge it. This is a common trait with you. You will (doubtless) then bring this same false claim up in a year's time, as if the evidence has not been presented. You cannot keep doing this. You never seem to bring subjects to their logical conclusion. All your argument tend to surround your personal opinion of Zech 14 and Rev 20. You think that is enough to refute the climactic detail of countless other Scriptures, when the rest should shed light of those 2 challenging highly-debated passages.
 
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DavidPT

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Isaiah 13:9-11: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars (kowkab) of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

Let's start with this passage.

Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.


Who are the Medes meaning here then? God uses the Medes to accomplish destroying the sinners out of the land. Let's hope the Medes are not also sinners, because then you end up with sinners destroying other sinners, which means you still have sinners remaining, the Medes in this case, because no one is destroying them out of the land as well.





Isaiah 30:33: “For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

How could it mean no survivors in light of the following?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Where do these survivors come from? How can any of these survivors be meaning any of the eternally saved if they can be punished for things if they refuse to comply?



Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

But then there is still Zechariah 14:16-19 and that it is also meaning after Jesus comes in the end of this age. But let's just ignore that passage, or let's pretend that passage is involving a time period that it isn't. Zechariah 14:16-19 is not applicable to this age in any sense. It is clearly meaning after Zechariah 14:12 has been fulfilled first, and that Zechariah 14:12 has not already been fulfilled in any sense.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Let's start with this passage.

Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.


Who are the Medes meaning here then? God uses the Medes to accomplish destroying the sinners out of the land. Let's hope the Medes are not also sinners, because then you end up with sinners destroying other sinners, which means you still have sinners remaining, the Medes in this case, because no one is destroying them out of the land as well.







How could it mean no survivors in light of the following?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Where do these survivors come from? How can any of these survivors be meaning any of the eternally saved if they can be punished for things if they refuse to comply?





But then there is still Zechariah 14:16-19 and that it is also meaning after Jesus comes in the end of this age. But let's just ignore that passage, or let's pretend that passage is involving a time period that it isn't. Zechariah 14:16-19 is not applicable to this age in any sense. It is clearly meaning after Zechariah 14:12 has been fulfilled first, and that Zechariah 14:12 has not already been fulfilled in any sense.

LOL. You just proved my thesis. It is impossible for you to look at any Scripture passage objectively and in context because it has to appease your fixation with, and fit your faulty opinion of, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. You will never see what is going to happen when Jesus comes until your eyes are opened to both of these passages. Sadly, you constantly advance these 2 much-debated chapters as if they are the key to understanding the end-time map and are the litmus test of any scriptural truth. This is both misguided and foolish. It is horrible hermeneutics. But that is how you interpret Scripture. That is why you do not grasp the meaning of these texts. That is why it is incredibly frustrating to engage with you on end-times. One ends up just going in circles and the texts in question are quickly dismissed because they forbid Premil.

1. Where is the second coming in Zechariah 14?
2. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
3. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
4. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
5. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
6. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
7. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
8. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
 
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keras

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All your argument tend to surround your personal opinion of Zech 14 and Rev 20. You think that is enough to refute the climactic detail of countless other Scriptures, when the rest should shed light of those 2 challenging highly-debated passages.
Only to AMill believers, are Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20; challenging and highly debatable.
The rest of us, who reject the untenable notion that we are in the Millennium now, can read and understand those scriptures quite well.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Only to AMill believers, are Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20; challenging and highly debatable.
The rest of us, who reject the untenable notion that we are in the Millennium now, can read and understand those scriptures quite well.

Personally, I'm not interested in your opinions of Amil. Despite years of trying to challenge it, you have failed to rebut all of its main tenets. But, saying you are so fixated with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)? I have requested this for years and you have come up with nothing. It is the same with Diva.
 
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keras

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Personally, I'm not interested in your opinions of Amil. Despite years of trying to challenge it, you have failed to rebut all of its main tenets.
In your opinion!
I and many others have proved that the idea we are in the Millennium now, is a crock, unbiblical and simply fails the reality check.
could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20
Zechariah 14:1-2 is when the Anti-Christ conquers the holy people, at the mid point of the final 7 years of this age, that is 42 months before Jesus Returns.
Zechariah 14:3-15 describes things to happen at the Return.
Zechariah 14:16-21 is how it will be during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:1-3 is how Satan will be locked away. After the Return of Jesus and Armageddon.
Revelation 20:4-6 says how those people killed for their faith during Satan's 42 month world rule, will be brought back to life. They will be Jesus' Priests and co-rulers for the Millennium.
Revelation 20:7-10 is how Satan will be released after the Millennium and how he will again seduce many people, who will be incinerated by God.
Revelation 20:11-15 describes the final Judgment of everyone who has ever lived. Called from their graves by the Last Trump of God.
Then comes Eternity, as per Rev 21 to 22.

So there is really no comparison, they are simply prophesies describing some end times events.
 
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