2 Babylons divided by the Millennium?

[Acts29]

Are there two different Babylons a thousand years apart? Here are some things to consider. What do you think?

1. Revelation 14 speaks of the fall of Babylon. In Revelation 17, after the last bowl of wrath and the battle of Armageddon, another Babylon is described symbolically. Why describe it symbolically unless it is to come in the future from that point in time.

2. In Revelation 16 we have the great battle of God Almighty, Armageddon. In Revelation 20 Satan is cast into the abyss for 1000 years. At the end of which he is released for a time for another battle.
16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Doesn't this make it obvious that the end of the Millennium will be much wickedness since Satan can gather such a great army? If so, perhaps we are trying to apply scriptures to one event when actually there are two great battles a thousand years apart.

3. Ezekiel 38 and 39 have some differences that don't reconcile. One example. In 38, they have swords. In 39, they have only wooden weapons. Is it possible that these two chapters are separate prophecies that occur at different times? If Gog is Satan himself, it would make sense for him to come again 1000 years later, as per Rev 20.

4. In Revelation 13 the beast rules all the earth. In Daniel 7, the beast will "wear out the saints." Generally, most understand the great tribulation is about the saints getting hammered. Revelation 16 describes a similar situation when the great battle of God Almighty comes.
However, in Revelation 20, that great battle describes the enemy only surrounding the saints, and then God wipes them out. In other words, it is rescue event. This appears to be very different than the Revelation 16 battle. Are they different?

5. Isaiah 21:2 A distressing vision is declared to me; The treacherous dealer deals treacherously, And the plunderer plunders. Go up, O Elam! Besiege, O Media! All its sighing I have made to cease. ... 9 And look, here comes a chariot of men with a pair of horsemen!”
Then he answered and said, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen!
Isaiah 48:14 ... He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. ... 20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans!
Elam is the Persian people and Media is the Kurds today. The Chaldeans are southern Iraq/Kuwait today. Two very distinct areas, both are referenced in the overthrow of Babylon. Could it be that there are two Babylons? A thousand years apart?

 

[eleos1954]

Are there two different Babylons a thousand years apart? Here are some things to consider. What do you think?

1. Revelation 14 speaks of the fall of Babylon. In Revelation 17, after the last bowl of wrath and the battle of Armageddon, another Babylon is described symbolically. Why describe it symbolically unless it is to come in the future from that point in time.

2. In Revelation 16 we have the great battle of God Almighty, Armageddon. In Revelation 20 Satan is cast into the abyss for 1000 years. At the end of which he is released for a time for another battle.
16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Doesn't this make it obvious that the end of the Millennium will be much wickedness since Satan can gather such a great army? If so, perhaps we are trying to apply scriptures to one event when actually there are two great battles a thousand years apart.

3. Ezekiel 38 and 39 have some differences that don't reconcile. One example. In 38, they have swords. In 39, they have only wooden weapons. Is it possible that these two chapters are separate prophecies that occur at different times? If Gog is Satan himself, it would make sense for him to come again 1000 years later, as per Rev 20.

4. In Revelation 13 the beast rules all the earth. In Daniel 7, the beast will "wear out the saints." Generally, most understand the great tribulation is about the saints getting hammered. Revelation 16 describes a similar situation when the great battle of God Almighty comes.
However, in Revelation 20, that great battle describes the enemy only surrounding the saints, and then God wipes them out. In other words, it is rescue event. This appears to be very different than the Revelation 16 battle. Are they different?

5. Isaiah 21:2 A distressing vision is declared to me; The treacherous dealer deals treacherously, And the plunderer plunders. Go up, O Elam! Besiege, O Media! All its sighing I have made to cease. ... 9 And look, here comes a chariot of men with a pair of horsemen!”
Then he answered and said, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen!
Isaiah 48:14 ... He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. ... 20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans!
Elam is the Persian people and Media is the Kurds today. The Chaldeans are southern Iraq/Kuwait today. Two very distinct areas, both are referenced in the overthrow of Babylon. Could it be that there are two Babylons? A thousand years apart?

This second angel’s message is a warning to the world about the false teachings of Babylon, which is described as a woman who was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication (Revelation 17:4). A woman in Bible prophecy represents a church (Ephesians 5:25). Therefore, Babylon represents a religious power. This is the very same desolating power described as the little horn in Daniel 7.

Babylon is symbolic in the book of Revelation .... it's not a physical place .... it is false teaching systems.
Babylon (confusion)

Babylon and her daughters are described under different symbols in Revelation Chapter 13.

The 1,000 years ...

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul said that at Christ’s second coming the wicked “will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord.” And in the symbolic description of Christ going to war against the kings of the earth and their armies, Revelation 19:18 says that the birds of the air will “eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, . . . and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” From this it’s evident that the wicked will all be slain at Christ’s second coming.

Satan will also be bound during the millennium. Revelation 20:2, 3 says that an angel from heaven “seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.”

There isn’t the slightest evidence in the New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together after Christ’s second coming. To the contrary, in His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (Matthew 25:32; see also Matthew 13:40-43).

When He returns He takes all the saved to heaven and the 1,000 years is spent there .... after that the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) takes place and the battle of Gog and Magog (Armageddon) ensues .... and all the lost, including satan and the 1/3 fallen angels are destroyed for eternity. AMEN!!! The saved are protected in the NEW Jerusalem that has descended from heaven.

so one millennium beginning when Christ returns.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Could it be that there are two Babylons? A thousand years apart?

No, there are not two Babylons, with a thousand years between two different battles. It's the same battle described, and the same Babylon, presented in a pattern of recapitulation.

In Revelation, John employed the Hebraic method of retelling an event several times, in order to confirm the certainty of that single event happening, and the imminence of its occurrence. Just like Pharaoh's dreams interpreted by Joseph. The same single event was being foretold, but used different symbolism each time, in order to confirm the reality of the dream, and to convey just how soon in the near future the fulfillment of that dream would happen. As Joseph told Pharoah, "And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass." (Genesis 41:32).

 

[Acts29]

This second angel’s message is a warning to the world about the false teachings of Babylon, which is described as a woman who was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication (Revelation 17:4). A woman in Bible prophecy represents a church (Ephesians 5:25). Therefore, Babylon represents a religious power. This is the very same desolating power described as the little horn in Daniel 7.

Babylon is symbolic in the book of Revelation .... it's not a physical place .... it is false teaching systems.
Babylon (confusion)

Babylon and her daughters are described under different symbols in Revelation Chapter 13.

I see that Babylon is a city, a physical place, but I don't see value in arguing about it. I do have a question for you. In Revelation 14 the second angel proclaims Babylon is fallen, is fallen. Then, the third angel follows AFTER with a warning about the mark of the beast.

Revelation 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

It would not make sense for the third angel to warn about something after it was too late to do anything about it. Do you see that Babylon is destroyed first, THEN the time of the beasts and the mark comes after Babylon is fallen?

The 1,000 years ...

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul said that at Christ’s second coming the wicked “will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord.” And in the symbolic description of Christ going to war against the kings of the earth and their armies, Revelation 19:18 says that the birds of the air will “eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, . . . and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” From this it’s evident that the wicked will all be slain at Christ’s second coming.

Satan will also be bound during the millennium. Revelation 20:2, 3 says that an angel from heaven “seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.”

There isn’t the slightest evidence in the New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together after Christ’s second coming. To the contrary, in His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (Matthew 25:32; see also Matthew 13:40-43).

When He returns He takes all the saved to heaven and the 1,000 years is spent there .... after that the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) takes place and the battle of Gog and Magog (Armageddon) ensues .... and all the lost, including satan and the 1/3 fallen angels are destroyed for eternity. AMEN!!! The saved are protected in the NEW Jerusalem that has descended from heaven.

so one millennium beginning when Christ returns.

I largely agree with your overall points here, especially your recognition that when Jesus comes the saints are taken to heaven and will stay there for the Millennium. Almost no one understands that. Well done!

I do have a question to follow up. I agree that Jesus will clean house and the wicked will be destroyed forever at the coming of Jesus at the beginning of the 1000 years. It will start off right, but do you believe there will be no wickedness creep in over time? A thousand years is a long time. Many will be born and raised during that time. If there is no wickedness toward the end of the Millenium, who does Satan gather for battle after he is released?

 

[Acts29]

No, there are not two Babylons, with a thousand years between two different battles. It's the same battle described, and the same Babylon, presented in a pattern of recapitulation.

In Revelation, John employed the Hebraic method of retelling an event several times, in order to confirm the certainty of that single event happening, and the imminence of its occurrence. Just like Pharaoh's dreams interpreted by Joseph. The same single event was being foretold, but used different symbolism each time, in order to confirm the reality of the dream, and to convey just how soon in the near future the fulfillment of that dream would happen. As Joseph told Pharoah, "And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass." (Genesis 41:32).

Don't you believe all this in Revelation is history? When was the battle of Armageddon?

 

[eleos1954]

I see that Babylon is a city, a physical place, but I don't see value in arguing about it. I do have a question for you. In Revelation 14 the second angel proclaims Babylon is fallen, is fallen. Then, the third angel follows AFTER with a warning about the mark of the beast.

Revelation 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

It would not make sense for the third angel to warn about something after it was too late to do anything about it. Do you see that Babylon is destroyed first, THEN the time of the beasts and the mark comes after Babylon is fallen?



I largely agree with your overall points here, especially your recognition that when Jesus comes the saints are taken to heaven and will stay there for the Millennium. Almost no one understands that. Well done!

I do have a question to follow up. I agree that Jesus will clean house and the wicked will be destroyed forever at the coming of Jesus at the beginning of the 1000 years. It will start off right, but do you believe there will be no wickedness creep in over time? A thousand years is a long time. Many will be born and raised during that time. If there is no wickedness toward the end of the Millenium, who does Satan gather for battle after he is released?

No one is left alive on earth when Jesus returns. There is no one being born... the earth is desolate for the 1,000 years.

The 2nd resurrection (of the lost dead) are who satan gathers for battle at the 2nd resurrection.

Babylon is symbolic of all false religious systems .... all are destroyed on earth when He returns (the saved taken to heaven) ... so therefore all the apostate religious systems are destroyed ... all of Babylon is fallen (destroyed) along with all the wicked ... but that is not the full end .... after the 1,000 years all the wicked (that includes the false religious systems) are resurrected (2nd resurrection) and the battle of Armageddon takes place .... against the New Jerusalem (heavenly kingdom) that has descended to earth where the saved are and are fully protected in that city. God does his "strange act" ..... destroying the earth and everything for eternity .... then it's totally over for planet earth. Then He makes everything anew .... AMEN!!!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Don't you believe all this in Revelation is history? When was the battle of Armageddon?

Yes, this is history, but actually, scripture does not have the battle taking place at Armageddon. That Armageddon location was the staging area for the armies, where they were "gathered together." But from the Armageddon location, those gathered armies spread out over the breadth of the land, heading toward the "beloved city", as. Revelation 20:9 tells us.

The word "Armageddon" comes from "Har Megiddo", which means "Hill of Megiddo". This was near Caesarea on the coast, where Vespasian's armies landed and kept two legions there as a base camp. Ptolemais on the coast and Scythopolis were two other cities around Megiddo which were also used to station the Roman troops and the auxiliary forces. And just on the opposite side of Megiddo near the village of Nain - this area became the base camp for the main Zealot leader, Simon bar Gioras, who used the caves in this zone to store all the goods he had stolen from Israel's cities, to supply his own large army (Wars. 4.9.4).

From that cluster of cities surrounding the hill of Megiddo, the gathered Roman armies spread out over the land of Israel, taking one city after another until they finally arrived at Jerusalem, the Jews' "beloved city", in the spring of AD 70. The Zealot leader Simon bar Gioras's army had already arrived there earlier back in AD 69, forcing Jerusalem to let him enter the city, since he wanted to take charge as a military-type Messiah that would do battle against Rome.

 

[Timtofly]

I do have a question to follow up. I agree that Jesus will clean house and the wicked will be destroyed forever at the coming of Jesus at the beginning of the 1000 years. It will start off right, but do you believe there will be no wickedness creep in over time? A thousand years is a long time. Many will be born and raised during that time. If there is no wickedness toward the end of the Millenium, who does Satan gather for battle after he is released?

It does not matter the length. There will not be a wholesale rebellion until after Satan is free to decieve wholesale nations.

It is not about sin and a sin nature. It is about open rebellion. Death will be a consequence in the Millennium. No prisons and no reform. How a rebel is put to death is not defined. We do know that those cursed before age 100 are going to die. Any disobedience will not be tolerated. Dealt with immediately.