From post # 31 to you...
Thanks before I provide any detailed responses so I do not misrepresent you and understand your position correctly and fairly can you give me a dot point summary of your view and your claims here and your other thread as to what you believe? Nothing too lengthy just a some short simple dot points would be fine. I will wait for your response before posting so I make sure I do not misrepresent your position and I do not have any misunderstandings of what you believe and are posting.
Many thanks
This is the long version part 1:
I for most of my life took the Adventist position. However, over time I found elements I could not agree with.
The first thing I am looking at is to make sense of Revelation in its own context. I have read some literal, and some more symbolic interpretations. I tend to look at OT allusions as an important way to understand the text of Revelation, as well as references to NT texts.
And while we need to take other texts into consideration, I try to make sense of the text of Revelation on its own terms first, then note how other texts may relate. I don't agree with views that Revelation is not Scripture, or doesn't matter.
I have looked at some amil interpretations as well, as I think it would make it easier to reconcile the other NT texts regarding the events surrounding the second coming and resurrections, etc. However, I have seen no amll interpretation of Rev. 19 that makes sense as something other than the second coming. So then you are back to the concept of 1k years following the second coming, and prior to the second resurrection. So if someone has an amil interpretation, etc. that would make sense of this in some other way, I would look at it. I have not found such so far.
So I will go through my take on the section, and disagreements with the Adventist position as I currently see it. Since I am still looking at views, obviously I am open to changing this in light of evidence.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
This is a representation of Christ, based on the OT allusions. I have not seen a compelling argument that this is anything but the second coming of Christ.
The allusion to Psalm 2 which calls on kings to kiss the Son less His wrath is kindled and they perish fits what happens in the rest of the passage.
The role of judgment is further underscored by the robe dipped in blood, which in this case appears to be a reference to Isaiah 63 where God carried out vengeance upon Edom, and was seen coming from the battle in blood stained garments. The illustration of the winepress is similarly used in that same passage. This is obviously in the context of warfare with reference to riding a white horse, with the armies of heaven, etc.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.”
The angel calls on the birds to gather. They will eat the flesh of various ones, kings, captains, mighty men, horses, riders, of all ranks, slave and free.
These are all descriptive of types of people in armies, and even non-humans in armies, including horses. So the birds are gathered, and told to prepare to eat flesh, as at a battlefield. This further fits the war imagery. The other side in the battle is now introduced.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
The beast and the kings of the earth with their armies are gathered to make war against Christ. However, the war is quickly ended, with the beast and the false prophet captured, and thrown into the lake of fire, and the rest of the armies were slain by the sword that comes from the mouth of Christ. The birds that were gathered to that place then feast on the flesh of the armies that were gathered.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
Now Adventists see all the wicked killed at this point. But Revelation does not state that here, referring to the gathered armies instead.
When I held the Adventist view I usually would refer to 2 Thessalonians 1 for the evidence of all the wicked being slain. However, as I looked at it further, that text refers not just to the appearing of Christ, but takes in events all the way to the end, as do some others. So it is not limited only to the second coming, but the final punishment of the wicked.
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
The text references the appearing of Christ. But it also references
Flaming fire and
eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord. The eternal destruction of the wicked away from the presence of the Lord by fire would have to be the second death in the lake of fire, not destruction at Jesus' coming. As that eternal punishment happens after the 1k years in Revelation.
This text, as do many others, picture all the events starting with Jesus' coming to the punishment of the wicked in one sweep.
Similar to
2 Peter 3, which also indicates that the destruction of the wicked in fire happens when the earth is burned:
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
In fact, there are quite a number of texts which picture the fate of the righteous and wicked in close connection, but if the 1k years are understood literally, they are not closely related in time at all. But these texts take in both. This is one reason amil views would explain it better, but I don't see a way to reconcile that with the text of Revelation so far.
Revelation shows the destruction of the armies of the kings of the earth, but not all the people on the earth. That means there are still people, which it refers to as nations.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
The text indicates that Satan is bound so that he may not deceive the nations. Or, to put it another way, if Satan were not bound, he would deceive the nations.
This then assumes the presence of nations to be deceived. And we see in fact there are such nations when the 1k years are ended.
The Adventist view of the pit of the abyss confuses the issue, and is unsustainable in light of the text of Revelation.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
So this indicates that satan is on the earth itself, per official Adventist teaching, and that the earth is without humans, but only the devil and his angels.
The clarifying notes on the official Adventist site state:
What Adventists Believe about the Millennium and the End of Sin - Adventist.org
So where is this pit where Satan is to be locked up so he ‘might not deceive the nations any longer’? Though the Bible doesn’t specifically state it, we can infer this pit refers to the earth after the resurrection of the saints.
Later it says:
There is no one on earth for Satan to deceive. The entire planet is empty, left in ruins, without a single human being (Jeremiah 4:24-26).
However, this does not match up with what the Scriptures say.
Revelation already describes what the pit (Greek abyss) is, and it is not a desolate earth with no human beings.
In
Revelation 9 the description is given of the pit of the abyss. It has a key. Things go up out of it, and then those things impact the earth. It is a place of holding. There are still people on the earth at this time which are impacted by the things coming out of the pit.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Chapter 20 is consistent with the explanation in 9. The abyss still has a key. satan is thrown into the pit and it is sealed OVER him. Previously things had to go up to come out of the pit to the earth, and now he is thrown in and covered over. The abyss is still a holding place as before.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Satan is bound in the abyss, so he cannot deceive the nations. And when he comes out of the abyss the nations are still there to go and deceive.
It is only when he comes out of the prison that he goes to the four corners of the earth. This is consistent with the information in Rev. 9 where entities only impacted the earth once they left the abyss prison.
Adventists try to change the meaning of abyss already established in Rev. 9. But in both Rev. 9 and 20 it is consistent. The abyss is not the desolate earth. And satan is released FROM it before he goes to the four corners of the earth. And there he finds nations to deceive.
Now that we have looked at what Revelation says in its apocalyptic symbolic context, I will post another supporting Scripture in a more literal context regarding the abyss, in relation to demonic beings.
Luk 8:27 When Jesus had stepped out on land, there met him a man from the city who had demons. For a long time he had worn no clothes, and he had not lived in a house but among the tombs.
Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”
Luk 8:29 For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.)
Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.
Here we see, long before any proposed empty earth, during the earthly ministry of Christ, that the demons beg Him not to command them to depart into the abyss. This again suggests a place where Christ can send them that they do not want to go, but clearly is when there is no desolate earth. The abyss is a holding place for demonic beings.
And Satan is put there in Rev. 20 so that he will not deceive the nations.
So with this information in mind I note some basic disagreements with the Adventist view. The pit of the abyss is not the desolate earth. The earth is not desolate. The nations are there. Satan is placed in the abyss so that he might not deceive them.
