1000 years with Christ an SDA view

[LoveGodsWord]

Decided to make a new thread here on my response, so as not to disrupt this thread.

AN SDA VIEW ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIVING WICKED AT THE 2ND COMING AND THE MILLENNIUM

 

[LoveGodsWord]

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[LoveGodsWord]

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[LoveGodsWord]

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[tall73]

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Yes, we agree after the 1k years Satan is released--from where? His prison.

I asked you to clarify where his prison is. Because when he leaves the prison he goes to the four corners of the earth and finds the nations.

And previously it was said that he was bound so he couldn't deceive the nations.

This indicates there are nations throughout the earth. He is bound so he cannot deceive them, then he is freed and goes to deceive them.

The text says clearly after the 1000 years Satan will go out and deceive the nations.

But it says that satan is bound so that he may not deceive the nations, which means there are nations.

Before that those in Christ will be with Jesus and the wicked are dead until after the 1000 years. Revelation 20:4-5 It’s all in the OP.

You have modified it. It does not say all the wicked are dead. It says the rest of the dead will not live until after the 1k years.

Revelation 19 shows the armies of the kings of the earth gathered to one place, where they are destroyed. It does not state that all the living wicked at that time are destroyed. Revelation does show the armies of the kings of the earth destroyed:

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

From these armies two members are captured, the beast and the false prophet, which are placed in the lake of fire, and the rest of the members of the armies are slain:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

The birds now eat the flesh of those in the armies that were slain.

However, while these kings and their armies were slain, the earth is not said to be empty at this time.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Satan is bound in the pit so that he might not deceive the nations, which are still present. But they are reigned over by Christ.

So you have at the coming of Jesus:

Dead in Christ-raised, reigning with Him.
Living in Christ- reigning with Him.
Dead wicked- not yet raised
Living Wicked-what is left of the nations being reigned over.

In the end there are two groups. Those with the mark of the beast and those with the seal of God. You left this part out from Revelation 20:4 - We are either saved or lost

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Yes, the dead who had not done such came to life.

And the rest of the dead are raised after the 1k years.

But you still have the nations. And satan is bound so he can't deceive them.

Revelation 9:4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Revelation 13: 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

It’s late my time, signing out. God bless

Yes, all the wicked will be tormented in fire. But those nations who surround the camp are seen being consumed by fire in 20:9

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them

Fire comes down and consumes the nations who surround the camp


And it is described for those who are dead, but then raised at the second resurrection in 20:15

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[tall73]

Which part do you need clarification? Where the pit is

The Adventist view of where the pit is does not match up with Scripture. And that is making the topic more difficult to discuss.

From the official church website, number 27 fundamental belief of SDA reads:

What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

So this indicates that satan is on the earth itself, per official Adventist teaching, and that the earth is without living inhabitant, but only the devil and his angels.

The clarifying explanatory notes say:

What Adventists Believe about the Millennium and the End of Sin - Adventist.org

So where is this pit where Satan is to be locked up so he ‘might not deceive the nations any longer’? Though the Bible doesn’t specifically state it, we can infer this pit refers to the earth after the resurrection of the saints.

Later it says:

There is no one on earth for Satan to deceive. The entire planet is empty, left in ruins, without a single human being (Jeremiah 4:24-26).

However, this does not match up with what the Scriptures say.

Revelation already describes what the pit (Greek abyss) is and it is not a desolate earth.

In chapter 9 the earth is not desolate. There are people on it. The description is given of the pit of the abyss. It has a key. Things go up out of it and then those things impact the earth. It is a place of holding.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Chapter 20 is consistent with the explanation in 9. The abyss still has a key. satan is thrown into the pit and it is sealed OVER him. Previously things had to go up to come out of the pit to the earth, and now he is thrown in and covered over. The abyss is still a holding place as before.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Satan is bound in the abyss, so he cannot deceive the nations. And when he comes out of the abyss the nations are still there to go and deceive.

It is only when he comes out of the prison that he goes to the four corners of the earth. This is consistent with the information in Rev. 9 where entities only impacted the earth once they left the abyss prison.

And it says he is put in prison so that he might not deceive the nations which are still there.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Adventists try to change the meaning of abyss already established in Rev. 9. But in both Rev. 9 and 20 it is consistent. The abyss is not the desolate earth. And satan is released FROM it before he goes to the four corners of the earth. And there he finds nations to deceive.

 

[tall73]

Just going to claim a few spot here that I will come back to and add all the contexts that are not being considered as I get some time.


Note these will be overwritten and I will notify all shortly.

Very well, I will save spots too!

 

[tall73]

Just going to claim a few spot here that I will come back to and add all the contexts that are not being considered as I get some time.


Note these will be overwritten and I will notify all shortly.

Very well, I will save spots too!

 

[tall73]

Just going to claim a few spot here that I will come back to and add all the contexts that are not being considered as I get some time. I did not want to write a lot just to have my posts lost in the main body of the thread as I will only be making a few posts here to demonstrate context as my time is limited.


Note these will be overwritten and I will notify all shortly.

Very well, I will save spots too!

 

[tall73]

Just going to claim a few spot here that I will come back to and add all the contexts that are not being considered as I get some time. I did not want to write a lot just to have my posts lost in the main body of the thread as I will only be making a few posts here to demonstrate context as my time is limited.


Note these will be overwritten and I will notify all shortly.

Very well, I will save spots too!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Very well, I will save spots too!

Thanks before I provide any detailed responses so I do not misrepresent you and understand your position correctly and fairly can you give me a dot point summary of your view and your claims here and your other thread as to what you believe? Nothing too lengthy just a some short simple dot points would be fine. I will wait for your response before posting so I make sure I do not misrepresent your position and I do not have any misunderstandings of what you believe and are posting.

Many thanks

PS. After receiving a response I decided to make a new thread on my response, so as not to disrupt this thread. It can be found here...

AN SDA VIEW ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIVING WICKED AT THE 2ND COMING AND THE MILLENNIUM

 

[The Liturgist]

When will the 1000 years start?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand year (after the first resurrection)

After Jesus comes those in Christ will rise to meet Him.This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Let’s pray we are all in the first resurrection!

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

When is the second resurrection:

Revelation 20:5 “The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished”

What happens to Satan during the thousand years

Revelation20:3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

What happens during the 1000 years:

(Revelation 20:4). “I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3).

After the 1000 years what happens?

Revelation 21:1-3 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God

What happens to the wicked?

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. ...
When the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out
to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:5, 7, 8).

Sin and sinners will be no more

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The saints will live forever with Jesus and sin will be destroyed forever (punishment, not punishing- it ends).

You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:4

What are the fruits of a saved person?

Revelation 22:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God bless!

Forgive me, but that makes no sense, because Jesus Christ is God. Thus, the only difference between the Millenium as outlined and the post-Millenial period would appear to be the activities occurring therein, and the release of the devil (which also makes no sense; this is a major problem with Chiliasm in general).

Finally, with regards to Revelation 22:12, the verse you quoted is actually Revelation 14:12, not 22:12. And I feel you are quoting it out of context, eisegetically, in order to imply a legalistic interpretation of it.

What is more, whereas @ewq1938 recently showed me how premillenarian dispensationalism can be compliant with the anti-chiliastic clause in the Nicene Creed recension from AD 381, because the majority of premillenial dispensationalists do not believe the Kingdom of Christ will end after 1,000 years, it looks to me like this is actually the case based on the eschatological concept presented here.

Furthermore, as literal, Antiochene interpretations of the Apocalypse go, my friend @tall73 has exposed some obvious contradictions between the eschatological constructs presented here, in particular the desolate Earth, which are not Scripturally supportable even with a literal interpretation.

On a more meta level, however, I continue to advocate for the traditional amillennial interpretation of the major denominations. Indeed, I suspect Martin Luther, who was very much an Antiochene literalist in terms of his hermeneutical approach to Scripture, wanted to suppress the Revelation precisely because of its propensity to lead to this sort of controversy, and likewise, I suspect this is why the Church of Antioch was the last of the three major churches of antiquity to adopt Revelation (with Alexandria, home to the typological-Christological-prophetic-parabolic exegetical method, being the first to officially adopt the Apocalypse as Scripture, in 367 AD). It is also interesting to note that of the ancient churches, the only one that reads Revelation in full during the liturgy is the Coptic Orthodox Church, where it is read on the afternoon of Holy Saturday, before the Paschal Liturgy.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Forgive me, but that makes no sense, because Jesus Christ is God. Thus, the only difference between the Millenium as outlined and the post-Millenial period would appear to be the activities occurring therein, and the release of the devil (which also makes no sense; this is a major problem with Chiliasm in general).

Finally, with regards to Revelation 22:12, the verse you quoted is actually Revelation 14:12, not 22:12. And I feel you are quoting it out of context, eisegetically, in order to imply a legalistic interpretation of it.

What is more, whereas @ewq1938 recently showed me how premillenarian dispensationalism can be compliant with the anti-chiliastic clause in the Nicene Creed recension from AD 381, because the majority of premillenial dispensationalists do not believe the Kingdom of Christ will end after 1,000 years, it looks to me like this is actually the case based on the eschatological concept presented here.

Furthermore, as literal, Antiochene interpretations of the Apocalypse go, my friend @tall73 has exposed some obvious contradictions between the eschatological constructs presented here, in particular the desolate Earth, which are not Scripturally supportable even with a literal interpretation.

On a more meta level, however, I continue to advocate for the traditional amillennial interpretation of the major denominations. Indeed, I suspect Martin Luther, who was very much an Antiochene literalist in terms of his hermeneutical approach to Scripture, wanted to suppress the Revelation precisely because of its propensity to lead to this sort of controversy, and likewise, I suspect this is why the Church of Antioch was the last of the three major churches of antiquity to adopt Revelation (with Alexandria, home to the typological-Christological-prophetic-parabolic exegetical method, being the first to officially adopt the Apocalypse as Scripture, in 367 AD). It is also interesting to note that of the ancient churches, the only one that reads Revelation in full during the liturgy is the Coptic Orthodox Church, where it is read on the afternoon of Holy Saturday, before the Paschal Liturgy.

No one said Jesus is not God- where did you get that from?

Thanks for pointing out the quote from Revelation 14:12, it was a typo but I have corrected it. It is not out of context though and very clearly shows what the fruit of a saved person is, unless you don’t think God’s saints are saved?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

It’s hard to respond to the rest of your post because its filled with opinions that is not supported with scripture and why the scriptures I outlined is not correct. You can’t really reason with someone who values opinions as if they are scripture, so we will have to agree to disagree. Take care.

 

[The Liturgist]

No one said Jesus is not God- where did you get that from?

It’s hard to respond to your post because its filled with an opinion that is not supported with scripture and why the scriptures I outlined is not correct. You can’t really reason with someone who values opinions as if they are scripture, so we will have to agree to disagree. Take care.

I raised three issues with your post: firstly, that it appears to suggest that the Kingdom of our Lord ends after 1,000 years, which contradicts 2 Peter 1:11 and is therefore unscriptural, assuming I am reading it correctly, secondly, that you incorrectly cited Revelation 14:12 as being Revelation 22:12 , and thirdly, I expressed a general preference for Alexandrian exegesis vs. Antiochene exegesis in the case of Revelation, which is the only view I stated which could be considered an opinion.

Now, if your exegesis of Revelation does not declare the Kingdom of Christ ending after 1,000 years, I would appreciate it if you would inform me. Likewise you would do well to change your citation so that Revelation 14:12 is not cited as Revelation 22:12 , as that caused me some confusion and could completely stump other users.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I raised three issues with your post: firstly, that it appears to suggest that the Kingdom of our Lord ends after 1,000 years, which contradicts 2 Peter 1:11

Please quote where I stated the Kingdom of our Lord ends at 1000 years? My post is about what happens at the 1000 years and no where did I suggest God’s Kingdom ends, this is you adding to my words and not reading the OP. I clearly state the saints live with Jesus forever- not sure how you could read something different in this statement.

and is therefore unscriptural, assuming I am reading it correctly, secondly, that you incorrectly cited Revelation 14:12 as being Revelation 22:12 , and thirdly, I expressed a general preference for Alexandrian exegesis vs. Antiochene exegesis in the case of Revelation, which is the only view I stated which could be considered an opinion.

I already stated it was a typo and fixed so not sure why your bringing it up again. You still didn’t answer my question. Are you saying God’s saints are not saved?

Now, if your exegesis of Revelation does not declare the Kingdom of Christ ending after 1,000 years, I would appreciate it if you would inform me.

Again you are adding words that I have not said and using exegesis inappropriately. Of course God’s Kingdom is forever and its stated in the OP. You may want to consider re-reading the OP.

 

[The Liturgist]

Please quote where I stated the Kingdom of our Lord ends at 1000 years? My post is about what happens at the 1000 years and no where did I suggest God’s Kingdom ends, this is you adding to my words and not reading the OP. I clearly state the saints live with Jesus forever- not sure how you could read something different in this statement.

Ok, I clearly misread your position, for which I do apologize.

I already stated it was a typo and fixed so not sure why your bringing it up again. You still didn’t answer my question. Are you saying God’s saints are not saved?

On the contrary, the practical definition of a saint from a Patristic-Orthodox perspective is someone who is saved, or to be more precise, someone who is saved and in Heaven (the literal definition of the word saint is “holy.”) Roman Catholicism introduced more complexity with purgatory and with people who are beatified but not canonized, et cetera, which is why I prefer the model of the early church.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, I clearly misread your position, for which I do apologize.

No problem, I appreciate that.

On the contrary, the practical definition of a saint from a Patristic-Orthodox perspective is someone who is saved, or to be more precise, someone who is saved and in Heaven (the literal definition of the word saint is “holy.”) Roman Catholicism introduced more complexity with purgatory and with people who are beatified but not canonized, et cetera, which is why I prefer the model of the early church.

To me, I only care what the scriptures teach, not teachings of man, so we will have to agree to disagree here.

God bless.

 

[The Liturgist]

To me, I only care what the scriptures teach, not teachings of man, so we will have to agree to disagree here.

The teachings of Scripture and the Early Church are not incompatible.

Also, it is certainly the case that Adventists do interpret Sacred Scripture through the lens of Ellen G. White and other early Adventist leaders, which is the same hermeneutical model that Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants use, the only differences being the substitution of the Early Church Fathers, the Magisterium, and the Reformers respectively.

And as far as I am concerned, its completely fine that you use Ellen White, George Miller and other Adventists as guides to interpretation, because nuda scriptura is fundamentally unworkable, and Ellen White in particular was a devout Trinitarian. I disagree with her theology, but I think the SDA are better off following her than just doing their own thing exegetically speaking without reference to established theology or the use of an interpretive authority. And if it were not for the SDA interpreting scripture according to Adventist tradition, then the best parts of Adventist tradition, for example, the SDA’s commendable pacifism, might well be lost.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The teachings of Scripture and the Early Church are not incompatible.

Also, it is certainly the case that Adventists do interpret Sacred Scripture through the lens of Ellen G. White and other early Adventist leaders, which is the same hermeneutical model that Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants use, the only differences being the substitution of the Early Church Fathers, the Magisterium, and the Reformers respectively.

And as far as I am concerned, its completely fine that you use Ellen White, George Miller and other Adventists as guides to interpretation, because nuda scriptura is fundamentally unworkable, and Ellen White in particular was a devout Trinitarian. I disagree with her theology, but I think the SDA are better off following her than just doing their own thing exegetically speaking without reference to established theology or the use of an interpretive authority. And if it were not for the SDA interpreting scripture according to Adventist tradition, then the best parts of Adventist tradition, for example, the SDA’s commendable pacifism, might well be lost.

Perhaps you missed this in my OP as well, I only quoted scripture and no other source.

 

[BobRyan]

Are these, in your view, the same nations that he was put into the pit so that he could not tempt them for 1k years?

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

What text did quote for "throw nations into the pit"??