interesting how no dispensationalist has ever given proof to their claims, whether it be pre-tribulation, or their claim that Israel and the church are separate...
history, on the other hand, speaks for itself.
1. Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX
2. Didache: Chapter XVI
3. Shepherd of Hermas: 3rd Vision
4. Hippolytus, Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7
5. Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 50
6. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
7. Epistle of Barnabas, XV
8. Instructions of Commodianus, LXXIX 9. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V. XXVIII, 3
10. Cyprian: Treatise XI, 2
11. Methodius: Extracts From The Work on Things Created. IX
12. Lactantius: The Divine Institutes, Book 7, Chapter XIV, XXV
13. Lactantius: The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Chapter 70
14. Theophilus to Autolycus, Book III, XXVIII
15. Justin Martyr: Dialog with Trypho, CX
16. Epistle of Barnabas, IV
17. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1
18. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4
19. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1
20. Shepherd of Hermas: 3rd Vision
21. Shepherd of Hermas: 4th Vision
22. Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV
23. Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XLI
24. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5
25. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 50
26. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 60, 61, 64
27. Cyprian: Treatise VII, 2
28. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
29. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 7,8
30. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 7:2
31. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 12:1
32. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 13:13
33. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3
34. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VII, XXXI, XXXII
35. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28
flagrantly false, huh?... it's painfully apparent you haven't done any research concerning what you blindly believe in. if you actually did study, you would of found out just how false it is.
this goes out for everyone who is interested
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism - Part 1
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 2
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 3.m4v
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 4
YouTube - Rise of Dispensationalism Part 5
YouTube - Rise of Dispensationalism Part 6
for those who are interested in seeing the rest, get the documentary.
it's worth it, and cheap
We also know that John of Crystosom, who wrote in the fifth century, commented that some were teaching that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 was "the grace of the Spirit." Since the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is this restrainer is a major point of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this is strong evidence that the doctrine of Ephraim or of Isadore (whichever the writer was) was being taught in the fifth century.
and that's the only writing you can come up with?,,, a quote from pseudo-Ephraim?
i take it you got your quote from Grant Jeffery...
they are covenant theologians... more technically, reformed theologiansHi SuperKal,
interesting post how would you sum up the theological position of the critics? Are they Covenant Theologians, or specifically concerned about dispy eschatology? Who are they? What 'group' do they come from and fight under?
interesting how no dispensationalist has ever given proof to their claims, whether it be pre-tribulation, or their claim that Israel and the church are separate...
history, on the other hand, speaks for itself.
But then there's that whole Covenant Theology thang hey Biblewriter, the one that relies on the overall thrust of the WHOLE bible to point to all prophecies fulfilled in Jesus in an eschatological tension sort of way. It's also the main reason I'm amil.
I completely agree with you that the writings of men are insignificant. The only thing that counts is what the scriptures themselves say.Not the writings of uninspired folk before or after the Apostles, like the Millennial Jews who lived before Jesus. They had certain expectations as well, and just because much of the Jewish culture obviously used 1000 as extremely symbolic, it doesn't mean there weren't a few nutters who thought of it literally.
Much like their understanding of what Jesus came to do as well hey? Kick out the Romans and all that? Set up their little kingdom in the middle east again, when in fact the overall thrust of the Old Testament — even as far back as the promise to Abraham — was that the church would one day bless the whole world.
And now the Kingdom of God has gone out into the whole earth, and blesses it with friendship with God where-ever we go. So I'm usually bored by discussions of 'church fathers' because they were not inspired, and often the 'good guys' for one of my positions are also the 'bad guys' on another front. We might want to pick one theme from one author, but have to dump 4 others. They're a bit like that.
the pre-trib rapture hasnt happened and will not happen because there is no scriptural proof for it... only dispensational assumptionExactly, history does speak for itself.
The pre-Tribulation Rapture hasn't happened yet so we have no history. As for the church and Israel being seperate.............the facts and history speak for themselves. We have the church........and we have Israel.....two sperate entities.
Problem became when the nation of Israel was scattered too many people became confused and lacked the faith that the Word of God was true. They felt a need to "fix" Gods Word because they could not see Israel becoming a nation again. So began Replacement Theology.
Then Israel became a nation again, the Word of God was again proved true and those that were pounding square pegs into round holes have been scrambling ever since..........history speaking for itself.
Shame that we can't call the 20th Century the 'tribulation' because you think that Richard Wurmbrant & the other 'tortured for Christ' folk don't qualify. Indeed, it's a shame that we can't call the first century under the Romans the tribulation, because you've got some future timetable agenda you've arbitrarily plonked onto the passage. But me and my household, we'll follow the more direct teachings of Jesus that warn that during these last days, if we follow him, we will be persecuted. The world will not love us because it did not love him.Exactly, history does speak for itself.
The pre-Tribulation Rapture hasn't happened yet so we have no history.
Evidence from the bible please? I thought we were the fulfilment of God's plans for his kingdom, the New Israel. Jesus warned the Jews that he could raise up sons of Abraham from the stones.As for the church and Israel being seperate.............the facts and history speak for themselves. We have the church........and we have Israel.....two sperate entities.
Except there's another problem, and that is people like yourself can't see that the OT prophets that spoke of Israel being given the land again had all that fulfilled before Jesus was even born!Problem became when the nation of Israel was scattered too many people became confused and lacked the faith that the Word of God was true. They felt a need to "fix" Gods Word because they could not see Israel becoming a nation again. So began Replacement Theology.
..only because a non-biblical, secular state of Israel happened to form in Israel again to confirm your particular reading of the bible.Then Israel became a nation again, the Word of God was again proved true
Rubbish, you've just forgotten how to read Israel's history BC.and those that were pounding square pegs into round holes have been scrambling ever since..........history speaking for itself.
Covenant Theology has never been about replacing Israel with the church... had that been the case, the post apostolic church would of made that apparent, and yet they dont, and neither does the Word, because the Word clearly states in Galatians 3 Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 that they are both one in Christ.
There is no division between the two.
James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.
Nice try eclipsenow,1 Thessalonians 5:3 "While people are saying, Peace and safety, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape".
There are some that refuse to grow in the word, so here we have it spelled out directly from scripture, exposing the designed pre-trib fib to deceive the church.
WHEN He appears to us, THEN we also appear WITH Him.
NT - Col 3:4 WHEN Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear WITH him in glory.
I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
OT - Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, WHEN I awake, with thy likeness.
(Take extra special notice of the word, "THEN" and it's solid connection with, "WHEN"! We don't appear WITH Him before or after His appearing, but "THEN" = At The Time of His Glorious Appearing:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
When? Then: "At His glorious appearing." When? Then!
The Scriptures clearly say that: WHEN He appears to us THEN that is WHEN we also appear WITH Him...in glory).
and just WHEN will all this take place? Why at the resurrection of course...
Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
1 Cor 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Cor 15:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
It is clear that when He appears then that is when we too appear with Him and receive new glorified bodies...and not one moment sooner as "the pre-trib lie" would have us believe!!! For when He appears then the prophecy is fulfilled...
2 Cor 5:
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Rom 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Note again: "WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE"!
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that LOVE his appearing.
WHEN will we be fully saved - body, soul and spirit and glorified? At His glorious appearing! THEN!
REMEMBER... "When Christ who is our life appears, "THEN" YOU TOO WILL ALSO APPEAR [* NOT DISAPPEAR *] "WITH HIM" IN GLORY." (and not one moment sooner or later than His actual appearing/coming/parousia!)
See how simple the Holy Bible is. But man loves to meddle with the truth to suit his own lusts. So sad. Are YOU prepared for great tribulation?
I really can't believe that the return of our Lord in Judgement Day is being split up into so many different little events. The 'fly by' rapture where we go to meet him but there's no judgement... honestly, where does that even COME FROM!? It's Darby isn't it? Wonderful Darby who concluded that Christians who did not believe his bizarre eschatological rantings where no longer Christians!
Basically, when are we raised to new life? The Last Day. We know this. And when will we be changed to immortality? Well, D'uh, that's the same thing isn't it? The Last Day. Also called the Last Trumpet!
(And please don't go referring me to a literalistic reading of Revelations 7 trumpets because John also split the Holy Spirit into 7 as a metaphorical device, and gave Jesus 7 eyes and 7 horns to signify perfect wisdom and perfect power).
John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day....
And again...
John 11:24
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Now we see that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement.
John 12:48
48 There is a judge for those who reject me and do not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
And just in case there was any doubt left over, John himself — yes the author of Revelation — confirms that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement Day.
John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
But wait there's more! Let's move onto the rest of the New Testament. Mark explains the Last Day concept of resurrection and eternal life as the "Age to Come".
Last Day = Resurrection = Age to Come
Mark 10:30
30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
'Age to come' = No marriage and no babies. This means you can't have mortal unbelievers living alongside immortal Saints in some of the weirder interpretations of the Millennium that I've seen.
Luke 20:35
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,
And again, the Kingdom of God is for immortals only.
1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
These events just cannot be split according to a plain reading of the rest of the NT. We read the clear over the unclear, the plain statements before the figurative. That is the only way to avoid endless speculation over whose last days 'timetable' is right, and the embarrassment and dishonour to the church as 'prophecy' after 'prophecy' fails to come to pass. Gorbechev the anti-Christ? No. Saddam Hussein? No. Etc.
Which of course is destroyed on the "Last Day" according to scripture.Jesus must reign until all enemies are destroyed, the last of which is death.
Rubbish it's just that books like Romans and Hebrews have clearly interpreted the OT for us, and reading Revelation is best read in the light of the CRYSTAL CLEAR teaching of the rest of the NT. The NT interprets the old, not vice versa!We know by what legal right Jesus has to go about dismantling the devil's heavenly and earthly domain, but exactly HOW does Jesus go about doing so?
For that, one must understand the Old Testament prophets, the Old Testament events which type and shadow the things which are to come, and the book of Revelation, which I get the impression you would prefer to throw out the window, having read your comments.
No why do you wonder? It was a specific style of writing called Apocalyptic literature from 200BC to 200AD. What's the mystery?Don't you ever wonder "why" in regards to prophecy and symbolism?
Only if we're going to agree that there are literally 7 Spirits of the Holy Spirit and 7 eyes and 7 horns of Jesus. Do you at least understand this point?Back to the "how" for a moment. The scroll with seven seals is the method, the framework, by which Jesus is legally allowed, having been the only one who paid the legal price, to bring down the domain of the devil over this earth, physically and spiritually. Do you at least understand that point?
Rubbish all purposes for Israel were fulfilled when Jesus died and rose again. He tore down the temple and rebuilt it in 3 days. He is now our Prophet, Priest, and King. The Kingdom of God is now made of Jews and Gentiles who are believers in Christ there IS NO OTHER KINGDOM OF GOD! There is NO OTHER name under heaven by which men can be saved.It has been in progress since Jesus ascended. It has been allowed to go on so long to allow the establishment of the new covenant. When God says, "go get your bride" to Jesus, Jesus will appear and take us to be with Him. That is only part of it. God also reestablishes earthly Israel on earth.
This heresy that God still has 'special plans for Israel' was introduced in the 1830's by a very arrogant man called Darby. Darby created Dispensationalism and basically split 1800 years of theology on the Kingdom of God being the one united Covenant of God from the Old Testament Israel naturally flowing into the New Testament Israel of the church, both Jew and Gentile.So from the moment the church is married, Israel is sealed on earth, and gog's armies attempt to destroy, God's wrath begins on planet earth. There is a lot to tear down. God uses the devil to bring down babylon. God uses the devil to force earth's inhabitats to pick a side. God sends witnesses to testify and calls people to pick His side. Once everyone has picked a side, God comes to destroy. Then "the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ".
This heresy that God still has 'special plans for Israel' was introduced in the 1830's by a very arrogant man called Darby. Darby created Dispensationalism and basically split 1800 years of theology on the Kingdom of God being the one united Covenant of God from the Old Testament Israel naturally flowing into the New Testament Israel of the church, both Jew and Gentile.
Darby split it, and said there were extra plans for the Nation of Israel still to be fulfilled and worked out. This is heresy! WE are Israel — both Jew and Gentile. WE are the royal priesthood, the holy nation, the people belonging to God. And even if the end of Romans 11 might be read as talking about promises for 'all Israel to be saved' (and I think in the context it is all God's people, all the church — both Jew and Gentile), but EVEN IF one reads that as National Israel — they will be saved by BECOMING CHRISTIANS not setting up National Israel again.
Basically, 1948 has nothing to do with biblical prophecy. The nation of Israel can do whatever it likes and it won't affect bible prophecy. If it builds the temple again or DOESN'T build the temple again... meh. I don't care. It's got nothing to do with anything. All that counts is Jesus, and belonging to HIS 'holy nation'.
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