10 Top Errors of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

Super Kal

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and that's the only writing you can come up with?,,, a quote from pseudo-Ephraim?

i take it you got your quote from Grant Jeffery...

for those who want an in-depth look at this writing, feel free to follow the link
The Last Trumpet - Pseudo-Ephraem

for more research, others can go here
Deceived, and Being Deceived

some people are just too blind to admit that dispensationalism is a lie
 
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eclipsenow

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interesting how no dispensationalist has ever given proof to their claims, whether it be pre-tribulation, or their claim that Israel and the church are separate...

history, on the other hand, speaks for itself.

1. Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX
2. Didache: Chapter XVI
3. Shepherd of Hermas: 3rd Vision
4. Hippolytus, Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7
5. Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 50
6. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
7. Epistle of Barnabas, XV
8. Instructions of Commodianus, LXXIX 9. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V. XXVIII, 3
10. Cyprian: Treatise XI, 2
11. Methodius: Extracts From The Work on Things Created. IX
12. Lactantius: The Divine Institutes, Book 7, Chapter XIV, XXV
13. Lactantius: The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Chapter 70
14. Theophilus to Autolycus, Book III, XXVIII
15. Justin Martyr: Dialog with Trypho, CX
16. Epistle of Barnabas, IV
17. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1
18. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4
19. Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1
20. Shepherd of Hermas: 3rd Vision
21. Shepherd of Hermas: 4th Vision
22. Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV
23. Tertullian: On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XLI
24. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5
25. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 50
26. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 60, 61, 64
27. Cyprian: Treatise VII, 2
28. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
29. Cyprian: Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 7,8
30. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 7:2
31. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 12:1
32. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 13:13
33. Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3
34. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VII, XXXI, XXXII
35. Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28

flagrantly false, huh?... it's painfully apparent you haven't done any research concerning what you blindly believe in. if you actually did study, you would of found out just how false it is.

this goes out for everyone who is interested

YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism - Part 1
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 2
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 3.m4v
YouTube - The Rise of Dispensationalism Part 4
YouTube - Rise of Dispensationalism Part 5
YouTube - Rise of Dispensationalism Part 6

for those who are interested in seeing the rest, get the documentary.
it's worth it, and cheap

Hi SuperKal,
interesting post — how would you sum up the theological position of the critics? Are they Covenant Theologians, or specifically concerned about dispy eschatology? Who are they? What 'group' do they come from and fight under? :)
 
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eclipsenow

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We also know that John of Crystosom, who wrote in the fifth century, commented that some were teaching that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 was "the grace of the Spirit." Since the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is this restrainer is a major point of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this is strong evidence that the doctrine of Ephraim or of Isadore (whichever the writer was) was being taught in the fifth century.

Hi Biblewriter,
isn't it the case that I — as an Amil — could argue that it is the Grace of the Holy Spirit that binds Satan as the church steals Satan's kingdom from Him one by one? That is, as we fulfil our gospel mandate of going out into all the world — which is the great mystery of Daniel's scroll which is opened by the Lamb that was slain in Revelation — we bind Satan's kingdom as we convert people. And we only convert people as the Spirit works through the Grace of God in the heart's of those being saved.

I would even go as far as to claim we could use the same language of 'general graces' such as peace time and not war, and harvest not famine. If God is somehow binding Satan by, say, feeding countries that are 'more' Christian so gospel ministries can be prosperous enough to send missionaries out, surely that's also by the Spirit? This is a little more speculative than I'm comfortable with, but still a possibility.
 
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Biblewriter

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and that's the only writing you can come up with?,,, a quote from pseudo-Ephraim?

i take it you got your quote from Grant Jeffery...

Actually, no. I do not remember having ever read his comments on this. But he is the one who brought the document to the attention of the modern pre-trib movement.

This document can be found in "The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition," by Paul Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10, also in The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane, London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896, 33-41, and in Andrew R. Anderson's Monograph in Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5., Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932:16-18, and in Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20 and also pages 437-442.

You are correct that scholars call this writer pseudo-Ephraim. I do not like this name because it implies falsehood, and it neglects the possibility that it was written by someone who was named Ephraim, but was not the famous Ephraim of Syria. The document does not claim to have been written by Ephraim of Syria, but only by Ephraim.

Your comments conclusively prove that you already knew about this document when you posted the claim that the doctrine it teaches originated with a man that was born at least 1000 years after it was written.
 
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eclipsenow

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But then there's that whole Covenant Theology thang hey Biblewriter, the one that relies on the overall thrust of the WHOLE bible to point to all prophecies fulfilled in Jesus in an eschatological tension sort of way. It's also the main reason I'm amil. Not the writings of uninspired folk before or after the Apostles, like the Millennial Jews who lived before Jesus. They had certain expectations as well, and just because much of the Jewish culture obviously used 1000 as extremely symbolic, it doesn't mean there weren't a few nutters who thought of it literally.

Much like their understanding of what Jesus came to do as well hey? Kick out the Romans and all that? Set up their little kingdom in the middle east again, when in fact the overall thrust of the Old Testament — even as far back as the promise to Abraham — was that the church would one day bless the whole world.

And now the Kingdom of God has gone out into the whole earth, and blesses it with friendship with God where-ever we go. So I'm usually bored by discussions of 'church fathers' because they were not inspired, and often the 'good guys' for one of my positions are also the 'bad guys' on another front. We might want to pick one theme from one author, but have to dump 4 others. They're a bit like that.
 
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Super Kal

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Hi SuperKal,
interesting post — how would you sum up the theological position of the critics? Are they Covenant Theologians, or specifically concerned about dispy eschatology? Who are they? What 'group' do they come from and fight under? :)
they are covenant theologians... more technically, reformed theologians
 
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Choose Wisely

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interesting how no dispensationalist has ever given proof to their claims, whether it be pre-tribulation, or their claim that Israel and the church are separate...

history, on the other hand, speaks for itself.

Exactly, history does speak for itself.

The pre-Tribulation Rapture hasn't happened yet so we have no history. As for the church and Israel being seperate.............the facts and history speak for themselves. We have the church........and we have Israel.....two sperate entities.

Problem became when the nation of Israel was scattered too many people became confused and lacked the faith that the Word of God was true. They felt a need to "fix" Gods Word because they could not see Israel becoming a nation again. So began Replacement Theology.

Then Israel became a nation again, the Word of God was again proved true and those that were pounding square pegs into round holes have been scrambling ever since..........history speaking for itself.
 
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Biblewriter

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But then there's that whole Covenant Theology thang hey Biblewriter, the one that relies on the overall thrust of the WHOLE bible to point to all prophecies fulfilled in Jesus in an eschatological tension sort of way. It's also the main reason I'm amil.

But my point from the beginning of this discussion is that Covenant Theology ignores the overall thrust of at least half of all Old Testament prophecy and most of New Testament prophecy. Its basis is Replacement Theology, which reduces all the prophecies of the Old Testament and most of those in the New Testament to mere figures, instead of, as they repeatedly insist, explicit statements of coming events.

In adapting this system of interpretation, you are allowing your interpretation of the meanings of a few passages of scripture to set aside the entire thrust of the explicit statements of a great many other scriptures.

I must stress that not even one scripture says that the church has replaced Israel in God's program. There are indeed numerous scriptures that can be interpreted to mean that. But not even one of them actually says it. But if this interpretation is correct, most of the prophetic scriptures will never be fulfilled.

Dispensationalism, on the other hand, takes into account all the scriptures upon which you rely, and also takes into account the rest of the scriptures as well.

So while you imagine that Covenant theology theology relies on the whole thrust of the Bible, it actually sets aside most of the end tme prophecies in the Bible.

Not the writings of uninspired folk before or after the Apostles, like the Millennial Jews who lived before Jesus. They had certain expectations as well, and just because much of the Jewish culture obviously used 1000 as extremely symbolic, it doesn't mean there weren't a few nutters who thought of it literally.

Much like their understanding of what Jesus came to do as well hey? Kick out the Romans and all that? Set up their little kingdom in the middle east again, when in fact the overall thrust of the Old Testament — even as far back as the promise to Abraham — was that the church would one day bless the whole world.

And now the Kingdom of God has gone out into the whole earth, and blesses it with friendship with God where-ever we go. So I'm usually bored by discussions of 'church fathers' because they were not inspired, and often the 'good guys' for one of my positions are also the 'bad guys' on another front. We might want to pick one theme from one author, but have to dump 4 others. They're a bit like that.
I completely agree with you that the writings of men are insignificant. The only thing that counts is what the scriptures themselves say.

I speak of the history of doctrine only to answer those who attempt to use false claims about this history in an attempt to discredit simple reliance on the written word.
 
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Super Kal

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Exactly, history does speak for itself.

The pre-Tribulation Rapture hasn't happened yet so we have no history. As for the church and Israel being seperate.............the facts and history speak for themselves. We have the church........and we have Israel.....two sperate entities.

Problem became when the nation of Israel was scattered too many people became confused and lacked the faith that the Word of God was true. They felt a need to "fix" Gods Word because they could not see Israel becoming a nation again. So began Replacement Theology.

Then Israel became a nation again, the Word of God was again proved true and those that were pounding square pegs into round holes have been scrambling ever since..........history speaking for itself.
the pre-trib rapture hasnt happened and will not happen because there is no scriptural proof for it... only dispensational assumption
Covenant Theology has never been about replacing Israel with the church... had that been the case, the post apostolic church would of made that apparent, and yet they dont, and neither does the Word, because the Word clearly states in Galatians 3 Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 that they are both one in Christ.
There is no division between the two.
 
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eclipsenow

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Exactly, history does speak for itself.

The pre-Tribulation Rapture hasn't happened yet so we have no history.
Shame that we can't call the 20th Century the 'tribulation' because you think that Richard Wurmbrant & the other 'tortured for Christ' folk don't qualify. Indeed, it's a shame that we can't call the first century under the Romans the tribulation, because you've got some future timetable agenda you've arbitrarily plonked onto the passage. But me and my household, we'll follow the more direct teachings of Jesus that warn that during these last days, if we follow him, we will be persecuted. The world will not love us because it did not love him.


As for the church and Israel being seperate.............the facts and history speak for themselves. We have the church........and we have Israel.....two sperate entities.
Evidence from the bible please? I thought we were the fulfilment of God's plans for his kingdom, the New Israel. Jesus warned the Jews that he could raise up sons of Abraham from the stones.

Problem became when the nation of Israel was scattered too many people became confused and lacked the faith that the Word of God was true. They felt a need to "fix" Gods Word because they could not see Israel becoming a nation again. So began Replacement Theology.
Except there's another problem, and that is people like yourself can't see that the OT prophets that spoke of Israel being given the land again had all that fulfilled before Jesus was even born!


Then Israel became a nation again, the Word of God was again proved true
..only because a non-biblical, secular state of Israel happened to form in Israel again to confirm your particular reading of the bible.

and those that were pounding square pegs into round holes have been scrambling ever since..........history speaking for itself.
Rubbish, you've just forgotten how to read Israel's history BC.
 
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eclipsenow

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Covenant Theology has never been about replacing Israel with the church... had that been the case, the post apostolic church would of made that apparent, and yet they dont, and neither does the Word, because the Word clearly states in Galatians 3 Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 that they are both one in Christ.
There is no division between the two.

I agree with what you're saying as a far more technically accurate and helpful description, but at a basic level for new Christians wouldn't it be fair to argue that in the OT the Kingdom of God = Israel, and in the NT the Kingdom of God = the universal church? (Not a particular denomination as the Catholics might like to argue).

James doesn't seem to worry about implying we are the new Israel.

James 1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.

I think we dance around this because so many Premils like to call Amils nasty names. We are called "Catholics" and "Satanic anti-Semitic heretics". Well, a little name calling doesn't scare me.

The Church is now the Kingdom of God. Whether we are talking about Gentile believers or Jewish believers, we are all in the ONE Kingdom of God, that established by Jesus the Messiah. Any kind of 'special favours for national Israel' theology can lead into all sorts of danger.
 
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Super Kal

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no, i think it's much more simple than that...

all have sinned
all need Christ
Christ fulfilled the law by dying on the cross
all are one through Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile

just because one is a national Jew does not make them more favored in God's eyes.
God treats all His children equally and loves them equally... there is no favoritism.
 
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PeterAV

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1 Thessalonians 5:3 "While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape".
Nice try eclipsenow,
The US is SAYING peace and safety, yet much war is havoced upon the world from those that SAY peace and safety.
Plus Jesus said much war and turmoil would be around, but that is just the begining of sorrows. can't just pick on one scripture and diss the rest over the shoulder.
 
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PeterAV

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There are some that refuse to grow in the word, so here we have it spelled out directly from scripture, exposing the designed pre-trib fib to deceive the church.


WHEN He appears to us, THEN we also appear WITH Him.

NT - Col 3:4 WHEN Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear WITH him in glory.
I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
OT - Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, WHEN I awake, with thy likeness.
(Take extra special notice of the word, "THEN" and it's solid connection with, "WHEN"! We don't appear WITH Him before or after His appearing, but "THEN" = At The Time of His Glorious Appearing:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
When? Then: "At His glorious appearing." When? Then!
The Scriptures clearly say that: WHEN He appears to us THEN that is WHEN we also appear WITH Him...in glory).
and just WHEN will all this take place? Why at the resurrection of course...
Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
1 Cor 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Cor 15:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It is clear that when He appears then that is when we too appear with Him and receive new glorified bodies...and not one moment sooner as "the pre-trib lie" would have us believe!!! For when He appears then the prophecy is fulfilled...
2 Cor 5:
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Rom 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Note again: "WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE"!
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that LOVE his appearing.
WHEN will we be fully saved - body, soul and spirit and glorified? At His glorious appearing! THEN!
REMEMBER... "When Christ who is our life appears, "THEN" YOU TOO WILL ALSO APPEAR [* NOT DISAPPEAR *] "WITH HIM" IN GLORY." (and not one moment sooner or later than His actual appearing/coming/parousia!)

See how simple the Holy Bible is. But man loves to meddle with the truth to suit his own lusts. So sad. Are YOU prepared for great tribulation?
 
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Biblewriter

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There are some that refuse to grow in the word, so here we have it spelled out directly from scripture, exposing the designed pre-trib fib to deceive the church.


WHEN He appears to us, THEN we also appear WITH Him.

NT - Col 3:4 WHEN Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear WITH him in glory.
I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Tis is typical of the errors of the post-trib movement. This scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with the timing of the rapture. This scripture very plainly and explicitly speaks of when Jesus appears. The raptue does not occur when He appears, but before that time.

Pre-tribbers, mid-tribbers, and pre-wrathers all believe that the rapture occurs a significant time (in human terms) before He appears. Bur post-tribbers also believe it occurs before He appears, but Just before.

It is exceedingly obvious that we cannot possible appear with him unless we are with him. So the rapture has to occur before He appears. The question is only about how long before.

So this scripture has zero bearing on the timing of the rapture.

OT - Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, WHEN I awake, with thy likeness.
(Take extra special notice of the word, "THEN" and it's solid connection with, "WHEN"! We don't appear WITH Him before or after His appearing, but "THEN" = At The Time of His Glorious Appearing:


I agree with you that the time we appear with him is at his glorious appearing. But this appearance is before the world. The Greek word translated appear in Colossians 3:4 is phanerothe, which literally translates as may being made appear. It very explicitly speaks, not of a situation that exists, but of the beginning of a situation. it is accurately translated by our English word appear, because as a verb, our word appear does not mean being visible, but beginning to be visible.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
When? Then: "At His glorious appearing." When? Then!
The Scriptures clearly say that: WHEN He appears to us THEN that is WHEN we also appear WITH Him...in glory).


The error continues with assuming that this word glory means heaven. It most absolutely does not. It means that when he comes in power and great glory, then we will share that glory.

and just WHEN will all this take place? Why at the resurrection of course...


This is simply an assumption. There is not even one scripture that says this.

Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
1 Cor 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Cor 15:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The only one of these passages that has any bearing whatsoever on the timing of this event is the last one, and the true application of the term "the last trump" is debatable. It clearly means the last trumpet that will be sounded within some time span. But are to imagine that it means that there will never be another trumpet blown after this sounding? If that were its meaning, then all trumpets would have to be scrapped at that time, for they would never be used again.

It is clear that when He appears then that is when we too appear with Him and receive new glorified bodies...and not one moment sooner as "the pre-trib lie" would have us believe!!! For when He appears then the prophecy is fulfilled...

You cannot produce even one scripture that says this, because there isn't one.

2 Cor 5:
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Rom 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Again, not even one of these scriptures says anything whatsoever about the timing of this event.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Note again: "WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE"!
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that LOVE his appearing.
WHEN will we be fully saved - body, soul and spirit and glorified? At His glorious appearing! THEN!
REMEMBER... "When Christ who is our life appears, "THEN" YOU TOO WILL ALSO APPEAR [* NOT DISAPPEAR *] "WITH HIM" IN GLORY." (and not one moment sooner or later than His actual appearing/coming/parousia!)

See how simple the Holy Bible is. But man loves to meddle with the truth to suit his own lusts. So sad. Are YOU prepared for great tribulation?

In the earlier portions of this post I have clearly demonstrated the error of this conclusion.
 
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I really can't believe that the return of our Lord in Judgement Day is being split up into so many different little events. The 'fly by' rapture where we go to meet him but there's no judgement... honestly, where does that even COME FROM!? It's Darby isn't it? Wonderful Darby who concluded that Christians who did not believe his bizarre eschatological rantings where no longer Christians!

Basically, when are we raised to new life? The Last Day. We know this. And when will we be changed to immortality? Well, D'uh, that's the same thing isn't it? The Last Day. Also called the Last Trumpet!

(And please don't go referring me to a literalistic reading of Revelations 7 trumpets because John also split the Holy Spirit into 7 as a metaphorical device, and gave Jesus 7 eyes and 7 horns to signify perfect wisdom and perfect power).

John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day....

And again...
John 11:24
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Now we see that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement.

John 12:48
48 There is a judge for those who reject me and do not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

And just in case there was any doubt left over, John himself — yes the author of Revelation — confirms that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement Day.

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

But wait there's more! Let's move onto the rest of the New Testament. Mark explains the Last Day concept of resurrection and eternal life as the "Age to Come".
Last Day = Resurrection = Age to Come
Mark 10:30
30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

'Age to come' = No marriage and no babies. This means you can't have mortal unbelievers living alongside immortal Saints in some of the weirder interpretations of the Millennium that I've seen.
Luke 20:35
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

And again, the Kingdom of God is for immortals only.
1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

These events just cannot be split according to a plain reading of the rest of the NT. We read the clear over the unclear, the plain statements before the figurative. That is the only way to avoid endless speculation over whose last days 'timetable' is right, and the embarrassment and dishonour to the church as 'prophecy' after 'prophecy' fails to come to pass. Gorbechev the anti-Christ? No. Saddam Hussein? No. Etc. :doh:
 
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LovedofHim

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I really can't believe that the return of our Lord in Judgement Day is being split up into so many different little events. The 'fly by' rapture where we go to meet him but there's no judgement... honestly, where does that even COME FROM!? It's Darby isn't it? Wonderful Darby who concluded that Christians who did not believe his bizarre eschatological rantings where no longer Christians!

Basically, when are we raised to new life? The Last Day. We know this. And when will we be changed to immortality? Well, D'uh, that's the same thing isn't it? The Last Day. Also called the Last Trumpet!

(And please don't go referring me to a literalistic reading of Revelations 7 trumpets because John also split the Holy Spirit into 7 as a metaphorical device, and gave Jesus 7 eyes and 7 horns to signify perfect wisdom and perfect power).

John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day....

And again...
John 11:24
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Now we see that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement.

John 12:48
48 There is a judge for those who reject me and do not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

And just in case there was any doubt left over, John himself — yes the author of Revelation — confirms that the Last Day is the same day as Judgement Day.

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

But wait there's more! Let's move onto the rest of the New Testament. Mark explains the Last Day concept of resurrection and eternal life as the "Age to Come".
Last Day = Resurrection = Age to Come
Mark 10:30
30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

'Age to come' = No marriage and no babies. This means you can't have mortal unbelievers living alongside immortal Saints in some of the weirder interpretations of the Millennium that I've seen.
Luke 20:35
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

And again, the Kingdom of God is for immortals only.
1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

These events just cannot be split according to a plain reading of the rest of the NT. We read the clear over the unclear, the plain statements before the figurative. That is the only way to avoid endless speculation over whose last days 'timetable' is right, and the embarrassment and dishonour to the church as 'prophecy' after 'prophecy' fails to come to pass. Gorbechev the anti-Christ? No. Saddam Hussein? No. Etc. :doh:

Ah, to live in such a simple state of interpretation of Holy Scriptures, er, in your case, "new testament only"!

Jesus must reign until all enemies are destroyed, the last of which is death.

We know by what legal right Jesus has to go about dismantling the devil's heavenly and earthly domain, but exactly HOW does Jesus go about doing so?

For that, one must understand the Old Testament prophets, the Old Testament events which type and shadow the things which are to come, and the book of Revelation, which I get the impression you would prefer to throw out the window, having read your comments.

Don't you ever wonder "why" in regards to prophecy and symbolism?

Back to the "how" for a moment. The scroll with seven seals is the method, the framework, by which Jesus is legally allowed, having been the only one who paid the legal price, to bring down the domain of the devil over this earth, physically and spiritually. Do you at least understand that point?

It has been in progress since Jesus ascended. It has been allowed to go on so long to allow the establishment of the new covenant. When God says, "go get your bride" to Jesus, Jesus will appear and take us to be with Him. That is only part of it. God also reestablishes earthly Israel on earth.

So from the moment the church is married, Israel is sealed on earth, and gog's armies attempt to destroy, God's wrath begins on planet earth. There is a lot to tear down. God uses the devil to bring down babylon. God uses the devil to force earth's inhabitats to pick a side. God sends witnesses to testify and calls people to pick His side. Once everyone has picked a side, God comes to destroy. Then "the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ".
 
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LovedofHim

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Here's one for you, Eclipsenow. Brace yourself, it's in the Old Testament.

It shows a resurrection and gathering before wrath is poured out on the earth.

So, if, as you believe, there is no more mortals after the resurrection, who is God pouring out wrath on?


Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Who are "the people of the earth" whom God "is coming out of His dwelling to punish for their sins" if after the resurrection, there is no more mortals?
 
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eclipsenow

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Jesus must reign until all enemies are destroyed, the last of which is death.
Which of course is destroyed on the "Last Day" according to scripture.

We know by what legal right Jesus has to go about dismantling the devil's heavenly and earthly domain, but exactly HOW does Jesus go about doing so?

For that, one must understand the Old Testament prophets, the Old Testament events which type and shadow the things which are to come, and the book of Revelation, which I get the impression you would prefer to throw out the window, having read your comments.
Rubbish — it's just that books like Romans and Hebrews have clearly interpreted the OT for us, and reading Revelation is best read in the light of the CRYSTAL CLEAR teaching of the rest of the NT. The NT interprets the old, not vice versa!
Don't you ever wonder "why" in regards to prophecy and symbolism?
No — why do you wonder? It was a specific style of writing called Apocalyptic literature from 200BC to 200AD. What's the mystery?

Back to the "how" for a moment. The scroll with seven seals is the method, the framework, by which Jesus is legally allowed, having been the only one who paid the legal price, to bring down the domain of the devil over this earth, physically and spiritually. Do you at least understand that point?
Only if we're going to agree that there are literally 7 Spirits of the Holy Spirit and 7 eyes and 7 horns of Jesus. Do you at least understand this point? ;)

The main purpose of Revelation is John writing to the suffering Christians of his day about the troubles that are about to happen. Then the 'middle chunk' deals with 4 main themes in repeating patterns.

There seem to be 4 main themes in the middle chunk of Revelation. These 4 themes seem to generally describe the span of time from Jesus Ascension till his return.

These 4 themes do not describe particular events, and are not a 'future timetable' to be guessed. (Otherwise, what good has this part of Scripture even been for the church for the last 2000 years?)

Instead, they are generally descriptive, rather than being specifically prescriptive. They describe, they don't order. This is big picture language, not details.

The rough plot:

7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7
7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11
7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14
7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16

Note the symbolism in the structure and pattern. Each theme is framed with 7 descriptions which finish with 'end of the world' language. This is universal language to describe the "Last Days" we have lived in for 2000 years. Try not to think of these events as having a 'clock' or date. They are a waltz, not a timetable, Impressionistic rather than photographic.

It is as universal and generally descriptive as the way John addressed this letter to 7 specific churches. While there were 7 actual, specific churches, John was writing warnings and encouragement to the universal church.

So while there might be actual examples of Roman persecution of these believers, including the legendary 'anti-Christ' of Nero, all Christians in all times will face opposition and persecution. This is a series of universal descriptions and encouragement's.

The number 7 here means "God's perfection" or "God's perfect control over". Just as Jesus had 7 eyes and 7 horns, expressing his perfect knowledge and perfect strength and power over all, this letter rallies us to remember God's perfect control over history. The recurring number 7 through all these rather horrible passages tells us that even when things look bleak, God is still in control. He is the King. He reigns over history. It will be OK.

Last comment: Each seems to have an interlude at event 6, in which other more comforting themes can be introduced. So when we see the 6th Seal opened, we get a glimpse of Judgement Day and the end of the world and people hiding in caves to vainly try to hide from the horror of it all, and then the next chapter is all about the Saints in heaven. Revelation is a message of comfort in the distress and suffering of this Christian life. It repeats, and repeats.

As famous Sydney evangelist John Chapman says, "Revelation is written for the old and stupid. It speaks very LOUDLY, and it repeats it again and again". That is, no other book in the bible speaks with such vivid images so loudly, and not many other books repeat themes as systematically and rigidly. Which makes it a disturbing book, because it breaks through all my dry theological language and somehow penetrates my heart with these vivid dragons and beasts and pale riders and blood soaked martyrs. It wildly shrieks the basic gospel to me in a way I cannot tame or domesticate. And that is a good thing.


It has been in progress since Jesus ascended. It has been allowed to go on so long to allow the establishment of the new covenant. When God says, "go get your bride" to Jesus, Jesus will appear and take us to be with Him. That is only part of it. God also reestablishes earthly Israel on earth.
Rubbish — all purposes for Israel were fulfilled when Jesus died and rose again. He tore down the temple and rebuilt it in 3 days. He is now our Prophet, Priest, and King. The Kingdom of God is now made of Jews and Gentiles who are believers in Christ — there IS NO OTHER KINGDOM OF GOD! There is NO OTHER name under heaven by which men can be saved.

So from the moment the church is married, Israel is sealed on earth, and gog's armies attempt to destroy, God's wrath begins on planet earth. There is a lot to tear down. God uses the devil to bring down babylon. God uses the devil to force earth's inhabitats to pick a side. God sends witnesses to testify and calls people to pick His side. Once everyone has picked a side, God comes to destroy. Then "the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ".
This heresy that God still has 'special plans for Israel' was introduced in the 1830's by a very arrogant man called Darby. Darby created Dispensationalism and basically split 1800 years of theology on the Kingdom of God being the one united Covenant of God from the Old Testament Israel naturally flowing into the New Testament Israel of the church, both Jew and Gentile.

Darby split it, and said there were extra plans for the Nation of Israel still to be fulfilled and worked out. This is heresy! WE are Israel — both Jew and Gentile. WE are the royal priesthood, the holy nation, the people belonging to God. And even if the end of Romans 11 might be read as talking about promises for 'all Israel to be saved' (and I think in the context it is all God's people, all the church — both Jew and Gentile), but EVEN IF one reads that as National Israel — they will be saved by BECOMING CHRISTIANS not setting up National Israel again.

Basically, 1948 has nothing to do with biblical prophecy. The nation of Israel can do whatever it likes and it won't affect bible prophecy. If it builds the temple again or DOESN'T build the temple again... meh. I don't care. It's got nothing to do with anything. All that counts is Jesus, and belonging to HIS 'holy nation'.
 
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LovedofHim

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This heresy that God still has 'special plans for Israel' was introduced in the 1830's by a very arrogant man called Darby. Darby created Dispensationalism and basically split 1800 years of theology on the Kingdom of God being the one united Covenant of God from the Old Testament Israel naturally flowing into the New Testament Israel of the church, both Jew and Gentile.

Darby split it, and said there were extra plans for the Nation of Israel still to be fulfilled and worked out. This is heresy! WE are Israel — both Jew and Gentile. WE are the royal priesthood, the holy nation, the people belonging to God. And even if the end of Romans 11 might be read as talking about promises for 'all Israel to be saved' (and I think in the context it is all God's people, all the church — both Jew and Gentile), but EVEN IF one reads that as National Israel — they will be saved by BECOMING CHRISTIANS not setting up National Israel again.

Basically, 1948 has nothing to do with biblical prophecy. The nation of Israel can do whatever it likes and it won't affect bible prophecy. If it builds the temple again or DOESN'T build the temple again... meh. I don't care. It's got nothing to do with anything. All that counts is Jesus, and belonging to HIS 'holy nation'.

Are you quite certain that the idea that "God has special plans for Israel" started with Darby?

If you would read the Old Testament, you would know what God's plans for Israel are, and they certainly did not start with Darby.

But alas, it's all in vain. You refuse to hear what plans God has for Israel because it happens to be in the Old Testament, (although some is in the new) and those plans are detailed in the prophets of God, which you dislike.

So, where does that leave us? It's an impasse. I know and believe what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel and you refuse to know and believe (or even hear) what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel.

This impasse will ultimately end any discussion with you or any amillennialist because we aren't speaking the same language. We speak with scripture, both old and new testament. You are speaking with the opinions of men, and in complete disregard (and often contempt) for the old testament.
 
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