10 Top Errors of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

eclipsenow

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Are you quite certain that the idea that "God has special plans for Israel" started with Darby?

Yes.
p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The idea that there is still a special plan for Israel is called Dispensationalism. It was started in 1830 by Darby. Darby wanted us to believe the church had somehow missed this 'essential' means of understanding the bible in 'Dispensational periods' as a hermeneutic for understanding the whole bible. Eventually Darby said that ONLY Dispensationalists were Christians! (That's a cult-like attitude!)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The video below explains that while some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians that see the whole unfolding plan of God around the one Covenant of Grace which began in the nation of Israel and was fulfilled in the person and works of Jesus.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]EG: Justyn Martyr believed we are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose with the same message from the beginning to end all focussing on Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]More at:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLD_vuoPQzM[/FONT]


If you would read the Old Testament, you would know what God's plans for Israel are, and they certainly did not start with Darby.
I read both the Old and New Testament and see all the promises for Israel fulfilled in Jesus. Many of the promises Dispy's rip out of context were actually fulfilled before Jesus. EG: That Israel would return to the land was fulfilled under Cyrus of Persia, not in 1948!


But alas, it's all in vain. You refuse to hear what plans God has for Israel because it happens to be in the Old Testament, (although some is in the new) and those plans are detailed in the prophets of God, which you dislike.
Nice attitude there. I don't DISLIKE the prophets — I see them as fulfilled in the NT!

So, where does that leave us? It's an impasse. I know and believe what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel and you refuse to know and believe (or even hear) what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel.
Rubbish rubbish rubbish.
Read Romans and Hebrews that show how all the major roles of Prophet, Priest, and King were fulfilled in Jesus. I read and love the Old Testament because I can see how it is fulfilled in the New! Rather, I see YOU as the one refusing to know and believe (or even hear) books like Hebrews or Romans!

This impasse will ultimately end any discussion with you or any amillennialist because we aren't speaking the same language. We speak with scripture, both old and new testament. You are speaking with the opinions of men, and in complete disregard (and often contempt) for the old testament.
Rubbish rubbish rubbish
It is just that the New Testament interprets the Old Testament FOR US! Jesus and the Apostles REALLY DO interpret the Old Testament for us. WE are a 'royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God'. Us Christians!

You are speaking with the opinions of men — well one man — Darby, who influenced Scofield, who in turn pretended to be a Doctor of Divinity (but had no such qualifications), pretended to his church employers to be single as he wanted to marry someone else (and hid his previous marriage and divorce and never paid a cent for his 2 little girls) and eventually published the Scofield Reference bible, which influenced a generation of American Christians who no longer know how to read the bible in context.

Amillennialism — and especially Covenant theology – is one of the strongest, oldest Protestant traditions. Show me a Dispensationalist reformer?

The scriptures ultimately convince me that God's promises to the Old Testament are all met in Christ. Otherwise I'd consider being a Jew, not a Christian. But it's not just the scriptures. The best theological minds of church history, including the reformers, were Covenant theology. But Dispensationalism was started by the cranky and authoritarian, cult-like Darby who insisted only Dispensationalists were Christians, and the complete fraud and quack Scofield. Nice start for a movement there! ;) And you have the audacity to state I'm the one following the teachings of man. :doh: You're following the teachings of quacks.
 
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LovedofHim

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Yes.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The idea that there is still a special plan for Israel is called Dispensationalism. It was started in 1830 by Darby. Darby wanted us to believe the church had somehow missed this 'essential' means of understanding the bible in 'Dispensational periods' as a hermeneutic for understanding the whole bible. Eventually Darby said that ONLY Dispensationalists were Christians! (That's a cult-like attitude!)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The video below explains that while some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians that see the whole unfolding plan of God around the one Covenant of Grace which began in the nation of Israel and was fulfilled in the person and works of Jesus.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]EG: Justyn Martyr believed we are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose with the same message from the beginning to end all focussing on Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.[/FONT]


Opinions of men, opinions of men, opinions of men, blah, blah, blah, more opinions of men. Their opinion is no better than my own as far as I'm concerned. Now, quote a prophet of God and you've got my attention.

If you would read the Old Testament, you would know what God's plans for Israel are, and they certainly did not start with Darby.
I read both the Old and New Testament and see all the promises for Israel fulfilled in Jesus. Many of the promises Dispy's rip out of context were actually fulfilled before Jesus. EG: That Israel would return to the land was fulfilled under Cyrus of Persia, not in 1948!

LOL! If that were the case, you would understand why the disciples asked Jesus if he was about to restore the kingdom to Israel before he ascended in Acts 1.

Look around. Do you see Jewish descendants in a land called Israel on planet earth today? Do you think maybe that's a fulfillment of prophecy in preparation for the end times prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled? Oops, well, you actually have to read the prophets in order to know what they say.


But alas, it's all in vain. You refuse to hear what plans God has for Israel because it happens to be in the Old Testament, (although some is in the new) and those plans are detailed in the prophets of God, which you dislike.
Nice attitude there. I don't DISLIKE the prophets — I see them as fulfilled in the NT!

Really? And the one regarding Damascus, has that been fulfilled in the new testament? How about the restoration of Israel on planet earth that the disciples were asking Jesus about found in the prophets? How about the one about people grabbing a Jew and saying, "let us go to Jerusalem with you to enquire of the Lord because we heard the Lord is with you"? The Jews have been hated for two millennia so that's never actually happened. There are so many, shall I go on?



So, where does that leave us? It's an impasse. I know and believe what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel and you refuse to know and believe (or even hear) what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel.
Rubbish rubbish rubbish.
Read Romans and Hebrews that show how all the major roles of Prophet, Priest, and King were fulfilled in Jesus. I read and love the Old Testament because I can see how it is fulfilled in the New! Rather, I see YOU as the one refusing to know and believe (or even hear) books like Hebrews or Romans!

I was going to quote Hebrews and Romans to you.


You are speaking with the opinions of men — well one man — Darby, who influenced Scofield, who in turn pretended to be a Doctor of Divinity (but had no such qualifications), pretended to his church employers to be single as he wanted to marry someone else (and hid his previous marriage and divorce and never paid a cent for his 2 little girls) and eventually published the Scofield Reference bible, which influenced a generation of American Christians who no longer know how to read the bible in context.

Amillennialism — and especially Covenant theology – is one of the strongest, oldest Protestant traditions. Show me a Dispensationalist reformer?

I've never read Darby in my life. Unlike you, I don't put much weight in the opinions of men where Scripture is concerned. Haven't you read that those of us who have the Spirit of God don't need anyone to teach us because the Spirit will teach us? That's both Old and New Testament!

1Jo 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Isa 30:21Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."

Jhn 14:26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
 
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Biblewriter

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I really can't believe that the return of our Lord in Judgement Day is being split up into so many different little events. The 'fly by' rapture where we go to meet him but there's no judgement... honestly, where does that even COME FROM!? It's Darby isn't it? Wonderful Darby who concluded that Christians who did not believe his bizarre eschatological rantings where no longer Christians!
This heresy that God still has 'special plans for Israel' was introduced in the 1830's by a very arrogant man called Darby. Darby created Dispensationalism and basically split 1800 years of theology on the Kingdom of God being the one united Covenant of God from the Old Testament Israel naturally flowing into the New Testament Israel of the church, both Jew and Gentile.

Darby split it, and said there were extra plans for the Nation of Israel still to be fulfilled and worked out.
You are speaking with the opinions of men — well one man — Darby, ...
Amillennialism — and especially Covenant theology – is one of the strongest, oldest Protestant traditions. Show me a Dispensationalist reformer?...

Darby... insisted only Dispensationalists were Christians, and the complete fraud and quack Scofield. Nice start for a movement there!


It really makes me sad to see you posting this. Everything I have copied above is incorrect. But that is not what makes me sad.

The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias. His most well known student was Irenaeus. They both taught the millennium, which includes Israel as its capitol. And according to Eusebius, who wrote in the fourth century, "many" early church writers followed their lead in teaching this doctrine. So the doctrine that Israel would be blessed in the millennium is actually on the order of two centuries older than either Amillennialism or Covenant Theology. And a very clear statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture was being widely circulated in multiple languages more that a thousand years before Darby was born.

And Darby MOST ABSOLUTELY NEVER taught that anyone who did not agree with him was not a Christian. In fact, he absolutely insisted that it was evil to deny full Christian fellowship to all believers in Christ.

The thing that makes me sad is that I have already posted the proof that what I am saying here in discussions with you. But instead of checking it out for yourself, you simply continue to post your disinformation.

Your posts seem to be taking on a desperate character, as one after another of your positions is demonstrated to be baseless, yet you continue to insist on everything.

I have repeatedly posted Old Testament prophecies that have unquestionably not been fulfilled, yet you continue to simply ignore all the evidence that has been presented.

Your claim that the prophesied return of Israel was fulfilled under Cyrus is an example. I have repeatedly quoted prophecies that very explicitly say that "all Israel, even all of it," will return to the land, pointing out that nothing even approximately resembling this has ever occurred. Yet you simple ignore the evidence and continue to post such obviously incorrect conclusions.
 
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Super Kal

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if you want scripture, LovedofHim...

Romans 2:28-29
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

galatians 3:15-29
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

galatians 6:15-16
15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

and what about teaching a gospel other than the one that is preached here?

Dispensationalism says that the Gospel cannot be found IN the Gospels... it teaches that the Matthew , Mark, Luke, and John are only meant for the Jews, and NOT the Church, because the "dispensation of grace" until sometime in acts, and the "dispensation of law" is what Christ taught..

foolish dispensationalists. John 3 contradicts every part of your so-called "biblical" doctrine...

John 3:1-21
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."


it is the Law that condemns
Romans 3:9-20
9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

and since Dispensationalism teaches that Jesus taught the Law, Dispensationalism says that Jesus Christ condemned the world... AND YET JOHN 3:17 SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

what does Galatians have to say about those who teach a gospel contrary to the one that has been taught?...

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.


you say you follow the Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ, LovedofHim...
the Word of the Lord says you follow a doctrine created by man.

what does the Bible have to say about the doctrine of man?

Romans 16:17
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Dispensationalism started with Darby. There is ABSOLUTELY NO Biblical support of any kind for dispensationalism. it is false assumptions, eisogesis at it's worse, and wrongly divides the Word of Truth.

wake up.
 
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LovedofHim

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I don't even know what dispensationalism is, SuperKal.

Why are you being so mean? Do you understand what the fruits of the spirit are?

No one is arguing the facts regarding the church which is what you have quoted here.

The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles. That is a fact.

Once the church is taken away, God seals a remnant of Israel. Israel is raised up. Israel becomes the nation that all nations stream into to worship the Lord. Those are Biblical facts.

It's as though some here are unaware that God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that He will honor aside from the new covenant made with the church.


Romans 11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 
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eclipsenow

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The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias. His most well known student was Irenaeus. They both taught the millennium, which includes Israel as its capitol.

Show me the money Biblewriter. I don't believe you. Yes they were Premil, but prove to me that they were Dispensational! Silly extrapolations and arguments from silence won't cut the cheese here mate. I need evidence. :cool:
 
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eclipsenow

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I have repeatedly posted Old Testament prophecies that have unquestionably not been fulfilled, yet you continue to simply ignore all the evidence that has been presented.
I apologise, it is in my to do list. Back when Jen was plugging away here I asked for the Dispy's of the world to unite and choose their top 2 'unfulfilled' prophecies — but it never happened. Then you posted here, and I still have to respond... but do I answer "Loved of Him" or you first? Which top 2 prophecies do I look up? I got hit with a 'Dispy double' and it's going to be a LOT of work to research while I've got kids home.

Your claim that the prophesied return of Israel was fulfilled under Cyrus is an example. I have repeatedly quoted prophecies that very explicitly say that "all Israel, even all of it," will return to the land, pointing out that nothing even approximately resembling this has ever occurred. Yet you simple ignore the evidence and continue to post such obviously incorrect conclusions.
I'm sorry I don't remember this post — I'm not calling you a liar but I have been engaging heaps of people here across dozens of threads and the same things just keep on coming up. There's no one single thread dedicated to this question of whether or not God has a single plan for Israel. It just keeps popping up.

So your argument against the prophets is that 'all Israel' didn't go back to the land? I don't buy it. It seems enough went back to rebuild the temple mate. Jesus walked through a Roman occupied but very Jewish Jerusalem. That's evidence enough for me that it was fulfilled, and most of the scholars I read would call RUBBISH to the charge that 'not enough' Israelites went back. Go on, quote your 'proof texts' but it is a really weak argument — from silence yet again.
 
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Super Kal

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dispensationalism is exactly what you're defending, LovedofHim...

dispensationalism teaches that there is a distinction between Israel and the church... that God deals seperately with both, and in the end times, there is going to be a secret pre-trib rapture, and the church is going to be swept away into heaven for 7 years while Israel is persecuted.

yes, I know exactly what the fruits of the Spirit are, and yet even Paul openly rebuked Peter in a crowd for not following sound teaching... he rebuked him because he loved Peter. I would do the same thing to someone who believes int he OSAS doctrine, Calvinism, Jehovah's Witness, or Mormonism

Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation started at the exact same time because they were created by the same man... thats why i posted that documentary.
Post-tribulation and Covenant Theology can be traced back to Jesus Christ...
Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation cannot.

this is why studying and researching any biblical doctrine is sound advice... that way you can know if indeed it does match up with the Word.

there are many key verses to keep in mind when it comes to doctrine and theology:
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


the first one, 2 Timothy 2:15, stands by itself... the Bible encourages you to study for yourself, one-on-one with God... the next three go hand in hand: knowing 2 Peter 1:20 in mind, keep in mind the Bible warns us of the doctrine of men, but encourages us to be mindful of apostolic tradition... one of the advantages that the early church had that we dont have today is oral tradition, or word of mouth. Many of those teachers were taught by the apostles themselves. I'll give you an example: Jesus Christ taught John, the same apostle who wrote the Gospel of John, 1 John-3 John, and Revelation.
John had three disciples: Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp of Smyrna. Many believe that Revelation 2:8-10 was written to Polycarp.
Polycarp had one student: Irenaeus. Irenaeus was a bishop in Lyons and defended the church against Gnosticism, more specifically, the Gnosticism taught by Valentinus.
you have a line of pure doctrine, theology, and teaching of 100 years that dates back to Jesus Christ Himself. Many people blow this off considering it as irrelevant & unimportant, when, from a historical and theological perspective, is significant and important

think of it this way: if you're studying the Word of God, and you come up with a doctrine or teaching that haws never been discovered or has never been taught in the past 2000 years, chances are it's going to be wrong...

Irenaeus never espouses on anything concerning the Church and Israel being separate, or there being a pre-tribulation or pre-wrath rapture of any kind... in fact, he taught the exact opposite: post-tribulation. if pre-trib or pre-wrath were Biblical, it would of been taught in the ante-Nicene church era, but it isnt.
 
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LovedofHim

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dispensationalism is exactly what you're defending, LovedofHim...

dispensationalism teaches that there is a distinction between Israel and the church... that God deals seperately with both, and in the end times, there is going to be a secret pre-trib rapture, and the church is going to be swept away into heaven for 7 years while Israel is persecuted.

yes, I know exactly what the fruits of the Spirit are, and yet even Paul openly rebuked Peter in a crowd for not following sound teaching... he rebuked him because he loved Peter. I would do the same thing to someone who believes int he OSAS doctrine, Calvinism, Jehovah's Witness, or Mormonism

Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation started at the exact same time because they were created by the same man... thats why i posted that documentary.
Post-tribulation and Covenant Theology can be traced back to Jesus Christ...
Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation cannot.

this is why studying and researching any biblical doctrine is sound advice... that way you can know if indeed it does match up with the Word.

there are many key verses to keep in mind when it comes to doctrine and theology:
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


the first one, 2 Timothy 2:15, stands by itself... the Bible encourages you to study for yourself, one-on-one with God... the next three go hand in hand: knowing 2 Peter 1:20 in mind, keep in mind the Bible warns us of the doctrine of men, but encourages us to be mindful of apostolic tradition... one of the advantages that the early church had that we dont have today is oral tradition, or word of mouth. Many of those teachers were taught by the apostles themselves. I'll give you an example: Jesus Christ taught John, the same apostle who wrote the Gospel of John, 1 John-3 John, and Revelation.
John had three disciples: Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp of Smyrna. Many believe that Revelation 2:8-10 was written to Polycarp.
Polycarp had one student: Irenaeus. Irenaeus was a bishop in Lyons and defended the church against Gnosticism, more specifically, the Gnosticism taught by Valentinus.
you have a line of pure doctrine, theology, and teaching of 100 years that dates back to Jesus Christ Himself. Many people blow this off considering it as irrelevant & unimportant, when, from a historical and theological perspective, is significant and important

think of it this way: if you're studying the Word of God, and you come up with a doctrine or teaching that haws never been discovered or has never been taught in the past 2000 years, chances are it's going to be wrong...

Irenaeus never espouses on anything concerning the Church and Israel being separate, or there being a pre-tribulation or pre-wrath rapture of any kind... in fact, he taught the exact opposite: post-tribulation. if pre-trib or pre-wrath were Biblical, it would of been taught in the ante-Nicene church era, but it isnt.


What's up with all the people around here who are all caught up in the opinions of men? There appears to be a rash of people who are coming along talking about dispensation this and covenant that and darby this and Ireneaus that.

Who cares? The only thing that matters is what GOD says.
 
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Super Kal

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Show me the money Biblewriter. I don't believe you. Yes they were Premil, but prove to me that they were Dispensational! Silly extrapolations and arguments from silence won't cut the cheese here mate. I need evidence. :cool:
I believe he wont find any... reviewing the fragments that are left from Papias myself, there is absolutely no mention ANYWHERE of Israel.

you can read the Papias, or what's left, for yourself, instead of relying on me
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and you're absolutely right... just because the early church fathers were premillennial, does not automatically make them Dispensational... it's like saying since a clown fish can swim, that automatically makes it a salmon.
all Salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon.

and there is an ENORMOUS difference between Dispensational Premillennialism and Historic Premillennialism
 
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Super Kal

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What's up with all the people around here who are all caught up in the opinions of men? There appears to be a rash of people who are coming along talking about dispensation this and covenant that and darby this and Ireneaus that.

Who cares? The only thing that matters is what GOD says.
and how can you prove that what you believe is theologically accurate?...

i can prove and post-tribulation theologically, Biblically, and exegetically... I can prove it with the Greek and Hebrew grammar, and I can prove it by showing it's credibility in the early church.

let me ask you something even more important... if the pre-tribulation or pre-wrath rapture was so important to the return of Jesus Christ, then why was it hidden from the Church for 1800-2000 years, when the Bible itself says "behold, I have told you all things beforehand" or "contend for the faith that was once delivered unto all the saints"?
 
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eclipsenow

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Loved of Him thinks we are worshipping at the feet of various people when we either use their names, or the names of their ideas and theological positions. We're not. We're just using it as shorthand in a conversation. It is much quicker for me to say, "I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture because of these verses...." than it is for me to say "I don't believe in Jesus returning before 7 long years of suffering, and rescuing us from this time of tribulation by invisibly removing us from this world into the spiritual dimension we call heaven, and........ what were we talking about again?"

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture primarily because of the bible, but also because I haven't come across any evidence for it in the early church fathers. Now I'm also not Premil, even though many early church fathers were, but then again — at my superficial level of understanding of Jewish history — there appear to be some Jews BC who also believed in a literal millennium. However, many scholars also see the bible using 1000 figuratively in too many passages. It simply means a long period of time, or even a full period of time! So you can see that I'm not bowing at the feet of ALL early church 'fathers' — not at all!
 
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LovedofHim

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Loved of Him thinks we are worshipping at the feet of various people when we either use their names, or the names of their ideas and theological positions. We're not. We're just using it as shorthand in a conversation. It is much quicker for me to say, "I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture because of these verses...." than it is for me to say "I don't believe in Jesus returning before 7 long years of suffering, and rescuing us from this time of tribulation by invisibly removing us from this world into the spiritual dimension we call heaven, and........ what were we talking about again?"

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture primarily because of the bible, but also because I haven't come across any evidence for it in the early church fathers. Now I'm also not Premil, even though many early church fathers were, but then again — at my superficial level of understanding of Jewish history — there appear to be some Jews BC who also believed in a literal millennium. However, many scholars also see the bible using 1000 figuratively in too many passages. It simply means a long period of time, or even a full period of time! So you can see that I'm not bowing at the feet of ALL early church 'fathers' — not at all!

What did Jesus say?


John 11: 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


When Jesus raises the dead in Christ, they are raised immortal. We who are alive in Christ will never die, forever immortal.

When does this occur?

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


This is why Paul could say that the resurrection and gathering of the church at Christ's appearance was prior to wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer!

1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Biblewriter

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Show me the money Biblewriter. I don't believe you. Yes they were Premil, but prove to me that they were Dispensational! Silly extrapolations and arguments from silence won't cut the cheese here mate. I need evidence. :cool:

SuperKal has quite correctly observed that there is no mention of Israel in the preserved fragments of Papias. But this is a very weak argument due to the fact that we have, exactly and only, ten such fragments, and the longest of them is only a few sentences long. But there are plenty of explicit references to a future restoration of Israel in the writings of Irenaeus.

But I have not presented an argument from silence. I have never posted even one claim that we have any example of Dispensationalism in the ancient writings. A demonstration of what they wrote is very logical. But a claim that none of them taught anything in particular is utter nonsense. This is because we know that there were many very early (Ante-Nicene) Church writers on prophecy whose writings have not been preserved.

If we know that they existed, and do not know what they taught, then is is simple falsehood to claim that they did not teach any particular doctrine.

All this applies to what I have said in the past. But now, since you have challenged me to "show me the money," I went back and read much of what Irenaeus wrote. I will, the Lord willing, shortly post my findings in a new thread.
 
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Super Kal

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and yet it is also not a only weak argument, but also an incorrect hermeneutic to assume something into any certain text, when it does not say anything of the sort... this is what 2 Peter 1:20 refers to "knowing this, no prophecy can come from anyone's private interpretation." and this goes for any writing...

The Papias fragments say what they say... we cannot add nor subtract anything from those writings to push what we believe or want others to believe.

and yes, Irenaeus does mention in his writings that there will be a future restoration of Israel... however, Irenaeus himself says in other writings that Israel itself is NOT a physical nation... it is a spiritual nation...

in his explanation about the Marcionites:

Chapter VIII.—Vain attempts of Marcion and his followers, who exclude Abraham from the salvation bestowed by Christ, who liberated not only Abraham, but the seed of Abraham, by fulfilling and not destroying the law when He healed on the Sabbath-day.

Vain, too, is [the effort of] Marcion and his followers when they [seek to] exclude Abraham from the inheritance, to whom the Spirit through many men, and now by Paul, bears witness, that “he believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." And the Lord [also bears witness to him,] in the first place, indeed, by raising up children to him from the stones, and making his seed as the stars of heaven, saying, “They shall come from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;” and then again by saying to the Jews, “When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven, but you yourselves cast out. This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and i will stand by this and say, just because one uses the term "dispensation" does not, and i repeat, does NOT, make one a dispensationalist. the term "dispensation" is in the Bible... it is "oiÎkonomiða", or Oikonomia, which simply means:

the management of a household or of household affairs
specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
administration, dispensation

nothing more, nothing less. it has absolutely nothing to do with "a time or epoch in which man must meet certain requirements to God", aka, Scofield's definition of "dispensation".

in turn, 20 years earlier, Justin Martyr himself speaks of Christians being the Israel of God

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Biblewriter

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and yet it is also not a only weak argument, but also an incorrect hermeneutic to assume something into any certain text, when it does not say anything of the sort... this is what 2 Peter 1:20 refers to "knowing this, no prophecy can come from anyone's private interpretation." and this goes for any writing...

The Papias fragments say what they say... we cannot add nor subtract anything from those writings to push what we believe or want others to believe.

And I have added nothing to what they say. But you continue to claim that documents no living man has ever seen do not say certain things. This is manifest nonsense.

and yes, Irenaeus does mention in his writings that there will be a future restoration of Israel... however, Irenaeus himself says in other writings that Israel itself is NOT a physical nation... it is a spiritual nation...

in his explanation about the Marcionites:

Chapter VIII.—Vain attempts of Marcion and his followers, who exclude Abraham from the salvation bestowed by Christ, who liberated not only Abraham, but the seed of Abraham, by fulfilling and not destroying the law when He healed on the Sabbath-day.

Vain, too, is [the effort of] Marcion and his followers when they [seek to] exclude Abraham from the inheritance, to whom the Spirit through many men, and now by Paul, bears witness, that “he believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." And the Lord [also bears witness to him,] in the first place, indeed, by raising up children to him from the stones, and making his seed as the stars of heaven, saying, “They shall come from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;” and then again by saying to the Jews, “When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven, but you yourselves cast out. This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and i will stand by this and say, just because one uses the term "dispensation" does not, and i repeat, does NOT, make one a dispensationalist. the term "dispensation" is in the Bible... it is "oiÎkonomiða", or Oikonomia, which simply means:

the management of a household or of household affairs
specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
administration, dispensation

nothing more, nothing less. it has absolutely nothing to do with "a time or epoch in which man must meet certain requirements to God", aka, Scofield's definition of "dispensation".

in turn, 20 years earlier, Justin Martyr himself speaks of Christians being the Israel of God

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
This is typical of the results of your relying on information provided by others instead of examining it yourself.

Irenaeus indeed said, as you have claimed, that the church was Abraham's seed. But presenting it in this way is only a partial truth, which actually amounts to a lie. Your source incorrectly assumed that by saying that the church is Abraham's seed, he was saying it was Israel. If you had checked this out for yourself instead of simply accepting someone's word without question, you would have known this. Irenaeus explicitly said that the Antichrist would sit in the temple in Jerusalem, and taught that the future kingdom would be in the earthly Jerusalem, as opposed to the heavenly. I do not at this time have the exact words he used, as I just read it last night. But I will tell you for now that He indeed taught this.

If you read the last ten chapters of the fifth book of Irenaeus' work commonly called "Against Heresies" without knowing who wrote it, you would think it had been written at Moody Bible Institute or at Dallas Theological Institute, or some like place. Most of it is exactly what they teach.
 
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Super Kal

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really?... and if it WAS exactly as they teach, LIKE YOU SAY IT IS, then you and every other teacher would actually be covenant theologians INSTEAD of Dispensationalists, because NO EARLY CHURCH FATHER EVER DIVIDED ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.

there is NO single shred of evidence that has EVER pointed to it, and you know that to be true.

and for the record, I never said there wouldn't be an earthly Jerusalem. In fact, I don't doubt at all that he said there would be an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem... the ante-Nicene church was premillennial in their eschatology... but they were NOT Dispensational... that is what I'm trying to convey to you. I said it would not consist of ethnic Jews only, but what God sees as the Israel... only those in Christ, and that's exactly what is taught not only in the early church, but also scripture.
and while we're on the subject, you care to explain the writings of Justin Martyr that explain in detail that Christians are the Israel of God, and the physical Jews were not?... every Dispensational theologian would agree that Justin Martyr does not teach dispensationalism as it is today.

even popular dispensationalists say that there is no teaching for it within the early church, and yet they always try to prove that somehow, they did... what you need to realize is that premillennialism has NOT always been dispensational. There is a difference between historic premillennialism and Dispensational premillennialism.

not to mention, Dispensationalism itself comes dangerously close to Gnosticism...
 
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Biblewriter

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really?... and if it WAS exactly as they teach, LIKE YOU SAY IT IS,

That's not what I said. I said most of it is exactly what we teach.

then you and every other teacher would actually be covenant theologians INSTEAD of Dispensationalists, because NO EARLY CHURCH FATHER EVER DIVIDED ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.

there is NO single shred of evidence that has EVER pointed to it, and you know that to be true.
Again, you are making claims based upon what you have been told, not based upon what you personally know to be true. For by your own admission, you have been studying such things less than two years, so you could not possibly have examined all the writings about which you are making such wide ranging claims. I have already conclusively proven that such a claim is baseless. For I have pointed out that we know almost nothing about what Papias actually taught, and I have quoted an ancient source that explicitly said that "many" early church writers followed his lead.

The only things we know about what these "many" writers said said are that they were literal in their approach, that they believed that “after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form,” and that their doctrines were rejected by people who believe as you now believe.

I did not previously post the proof that they were literal in their approach. But we know it because Eusebius said of Papias, and thus of his followers, that “I suppose that he got these notions by misunderstanding the apostolic accounts, not realizing that they had used mystic and symbolic language.”

Both of the quotes I have given here are from the thirty-ninth chapter of the third book of "The Church History," by Eusebius, as taken from page 129 of "The Church History: A New Translation with Commentary” by Paul L. Maier, LL. D., Copyright 1999 © Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI.

It would have been far more accurate for you to have said, as the wicikipedia definition of Covenant theology says, that "Concepts foundational to Covenant Theology can be found in the writings of Church Fathers such as Irenaeus and Augustine."

But concepts foundational to Dispensationalism can also be found in the writings of Irenaeus, as I intend to shortly demonstrate.

and for the record, I never said there wouldn't be an earthly Jerusalem. In fact, I don't doubt at all that he said there would be an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem... the ante-Nicene church was premillennial in their eschatology... but they were NOT Dispensational... that is what I'm trying to convey to you. I said it would not consist of ethnic Jews only, but what God sees as the Israel... only those in Christ, and that's exactly what is taught not only in the early church, but also scripture.
and while we're on the subject, you care to explain the writings of Justin Martyr that explain in detail that Christians are the Israel of God, and the physical Jews were not?... every Dispensational theologian would agree that Justin Martyr does not teach dispensationalism as it is today.

even popular dispensationalists say that there is no teaching for it within the early church, and yet they always try to prove that somehow, they did... what you need to realize is that premillennialism has NOT always been dispensational. There is a difference between historic premillennialism and Dispensational premillennialism.

not to mention, Dispensationalism itself comes dangerously close to Gnosticism...
The ignorance displayed in this last statement is almost beyond comprehension.
 
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Should it be Every Christians responsibility to do the work of a theist or do a deep theological dig outside of cannonized Holy Scriptures...........Or trust in what God has to tell us in His Holy word alone??????? God Bless You all ........Dave
 
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