eclipsenow
God cares about his creation as well as us.
- Dec 17, 2010
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Are you quite certain that the idea that "God has special plans for Israel" started with Darby?
Yes.
p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The idea that there is still a special plan for Israel is called Dispensationalism. It was started in 1830 by Darby. Darby wanted us to believe the church had somehow missed this 'essential' means of understanding the bible in 'Dispensational periods' as a hermeneutic for understanding the whole bible. Eventually Darby said that ONLY Dispensationalists were Christians! (That's a cult-like attitude!)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The video below explains that while some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians that see the whole unfolding plan of God around the one Covenant of Grace which began in the nation of Israel and was fulfilled in the person and works of Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]EG: Justyn Martyr believed we are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose with the same message from the beginning to end all focussing on Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]More at:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLD_vuoPQzM[/FONT]
If you would read the Old Testament, you would know what God's plans for Israel are, and they certainly did not start with Darby.
I read both the Old and New Testament and see all the promises for Israel fulfilled in Jesus. Many of the promises Dispy's rip out of context were actually fulfilled before Jesus. EG: That Israel would return to the land was fulfilled under Cyrus of Persia, not in 1948!
But alas, it's all in vain. You refuse to hear what plans God has for Israel because it happens to be in the Old Testament, (although some is in the new) and those plans are detailed in the prophets of God, which you dislike.
Nice attitude there. I don't DISLIKE the prophets I see them as fulfilled in the NT!
So, where does that leave us? It's an impasse. I know and believe what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel and you refuse to know and believe (or even hear) what God has spoken through the prophets in regards to Israel.
Rubbish rubbish rubbish.
Read Romans and Hebrews that show how all the major roles of Prophet, Priest, and King were fulfilled in Jesus. I read and love the Old Testament because I can see how it is fulfilled in the New! Rather, I see YOU as the one refusing to know and believe (or even hear) books like Hebrews or Romans!
This impasse will ultimately end any discussion with you or any amillennialist because we aren't speaking the same language. We speak with scripture, both old and new testament. You are speaking with the opinions of men, and in complete disregard (and often contempt) for the old testament.
Rubbish rubbish rubbish
It is just that the New Testament interprets the Old Testament FOR US! Jesus and the Apostles REALLY DO interpret the Old Testament for us. WE are a 'royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God'. Us Christians!
You are speaking with the opinions of men well one man Darby, who influenced Scofield, who in turn pretended to be a Doctor of Divinity (but had no such qualifications), pretended to his church employers to be single as he wanted to marry someone else (and hid his previous marriage and divorce and never paid a cent for his 2 little girls) and eventually published the Scofield Reference bible, which influenced a generation of American Christians who no longer know how to read the bible in context.
Amillennialism and especially Covenant theology is one of the strongest, oldest Protestant traditions. Show me a Dispensationalist reformer?
The scriptures ultimately convince me that God's promises to the Old Testament are all met in Christ. Otherwise I'd consider being a Jew, not a Christian. But it's not just the scriptures. The best theological minds of church history, including the reformers, were Covenant theology. But Dispensationalism was started by the cranky and authoritarian, cult-like Darby who insisted only Dispensationalists were Christians, and the complete fraud and quack Scofield. Nice start for a movement there! And you have the audacity to state I'm the one following the teachings of man. You're following the teachings of quacks.
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