10 Top Errors of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

Biblewriter

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Should it be Every Christians responsibility to do the work of a theist or do a deep theological dig outside of cannonized Holy Scriptures...........Or trust in what God has to tell us in His Holy word alone??????? God Bless You all ........Dave

I agree with you completely. I speak of these things only to disprove the false claim that our doctrine is a modern invention and must therefore be false.

While it would be quite accurate to say that we have no record of Dispensationalism having ever been formally systematized before 1800, it would be entirely as accurate to say that we have no record of Covenant Theology ever being formally systematized, at least as it exists today, before 1500. And this was at least 700 years after the widespread circulation of the earliest known clear and explicit statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.
 
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Super Kal

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Should it be Every Christians responsibility to do the work of a theist or do a deep theological dig outside of cannonized Holy Scriptures...........Or trust in what God has to tell us in His Holy word alone??????? God Bless You all ........Dave
let me ask you something:

this is just one scripture, among many others...
2 Thessalonians 2:15

anyone can say what they believe in is taught by the Bible... when they go into the Bible with their own opinion. While exegesis is the #1 way of Bible study, church history is one other use to solidify theology.

and while biblewriter desperately claims pre-tribulation and dispensationalism is correct, scripture and church history proves him wrong again and again. Some people are so deluded and blinded by this man-made doctrine, they would face the Antichrist himself, and still be convinced that they're still going to be secretly raptured away.
 
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Biblewriter

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let me ask you something:

this is just one scripture, among many others...
2 Thessalonians 2:15

anyone can say what they believe in is taught by the Bible... when they go into the Bible with their own opinion. While exegesis is the #1 way of Bible study, church history is one other use to solidify theology.

and while biblewriter desperately claims pre-tribulation and dispensationalism is correct, scripture and church history proves him wrong again and again.

Except, of course, when history proves the opposite of what you expect. Then you simply deny it.
 
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oneofchrists

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Hey There SuperKal! Even though You failed to ask Me a question I can say that the majority of professed Christians in the world today lack resources other than the Holy Bible...Many even lack a Bible .......Many plainly rely on their Ministers, Priests and friends to share with them the precious Gosple of Jesus Christ, They don't have a vast library of resources to pull from as We do in North America and Europe and Austrailia and a very few other parts of this old globe......They Must pray as We all Should and They must have Faith as we all should and they Must do good to thier neighbor as We all should and Most of all they Must Love God with all their heart as We all should........I am not faulting anyone who looks for a deeper and more meaningful realtionship with Christ , But I got to say sometimes debate can get a little testy and folks nerves get thread bare and egos seem to greatly deflate in the search for the alledged real truth of Scriptures that is not Written in the Good Book plainly in red, black and white............My two cents worth for Ya Kal...God Bless You and all who contribute to or read this post.....Dave
 
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eclipsenow

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The ignorance displayed in this last statement is almost beyond comprehension.

Hey Biblewriter, do you want to demonstrate that rather than just assert it? You're close to flaming there mate, and these conversations have been a bit too heated of late.
 
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eclipsenow

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it would be entirely as accurate to say that we have no record of Covenant Theology ever being formally systematized, at least as it exists today, before 1500.

Maybe they thought it was self-evident? All the quotes from the church fathers I've seen are what I'd call Covenant theology, seeing the overall plan of God being to fulfil all promises made to the Jews through Jesus spiritual kingdom, the church. In other words, everything they talked about and all the quotes we do have from the early church fathers are Covenant, and I haven't seen any that are Dispy. Have you? Can you dig up some for us that specifically unpack God's plans for Israel AFTER Jesus?

(Just because they were Premil does not make them Dipsy, ...oops, I meant Dispy).
 
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eclipsenow

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What did Jesus say?


John 11: 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


When Jesus raises the dead in Christ, they are raised immortal. We who are alive in Christ will never die, forever immortal.

When does this occur?

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Quoting Isaiah out of context in this way does nothing to prove a Dispensational timeline of the future. It must be put through the lens of the gospel and the way New Testament writers unpacked these matters.


This is why Paul could say that the resurrection and gathering of the church at Christ's appearance was prior to wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer!
Except that he said no such thing... the verses below in no way demonstrate what you claim they demonstrate! I just see them as another reference to our salvation in Jesus. There's no real timetable attached to it. Indeed, if anything, these verses show us we WILL NOT know when the Day of the Lord will spring on us like a thief in the night.

These verses are not at the expense of John 5 but merely complement it. They focus on the believer's forgiveness and salvation, while John 5 (and many other verses) focuses on how Judgement Day is the great separation of believers from unbelievers. But it is all describing the one glorious event, Judgement Day!

Read it again, and tell me what you see here that indicates otherwise? I don't see a THING that separates this event from John 5, from the Sheep and Goats, from the Wheat and Chaff, etc.

1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]
 
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Super Kal

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Hey There SuperKal! Even though You failed to ask Me a question I can say that the majority of professed Christians in the world today lack resources other than the Holy Bible...Many even lack a Bible .......Many plainly rely on their Ministers, Priests and friends to share with them the precious Gosple of Jesus Christ, They don't have a vast library of resources to pull from as We do in North America and Europe and Austrailia and a very few other parts of this old globe......They Must pray as We all Should and They must have Faith as we all should and they Must do good to thier neighbor as We all should and Most of all they Must Love God with all their heart as We all should........I am not faulting anyone who looks for a deeper and more meaningful realtionship with Christ , But I got to say sometimes debate can get a little testy and folks nerves get thread bare and egos seem to greatly deflate in the search for the alledged real truth of Scriptures that is not Written in the Good Book plainly in red, black and white............My two cents worth for Ya Kal...God Bless You and all who contribute to or read this post.....Dave
lol, yeah, sorry about that... i was gonna ask something, but decided against it, and forgot to erase it :doh:

you're absolutely right when in what you say... i first had to drop everything that i was ever taught, and let the Bible speak for itself. After I had a grasping and baby understanding of it, i then went onto other sources outside the Bible. I still use the Bible for my #1 source, and I always will, however even Jehovah's Witness use the Bible for their #1 source... yes, we battle with scripture, however, scripture is not the only thing we can battle with. Yes, debates can get heated... the only reason I'm so against Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation is I used to defend it blindly, because it's so popular, & ppl swallow it up like candy. it's an ear-tickling doctrine, nothing more, created by a man surrounded in false assumptions and incorrect hermeneutics. I can't stand it anymore. I'm not saying those who believe it aren't Christian, but they are wrong in their theology...

the sad thing is, though, a pre-tribber will first condemn and call another person a heretic or "unsaved", "nonbeliever", "mormon", or "tool of Satan" simply because they don't believe in pre-tribulation... thats personally happened to me many times, here and other places. i personally think pre-tribbers and dispensationalists alike are being led astray, but that doesn't change their salvation until it affects their fruits of their faith.
 
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Super Kal

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the term "Covenant Theology" did not exist until some time during the Protestant Reformation, with Reformers such as John Calvin, John Wesley, etc... however the belief that the Church and Israel are considered as one is Biblically accurate, AND was taught by the early church. You see this in the writings of Aristides, the Letter to Diognetus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, the Epistle of Barnabas, Melito, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian, and the Apostolic Constitutions
 
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Biblewriter

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Hey Biblewriter, do you want to demonstrate that rather than just assert it? You're close to flaming there mate, and these conversations have been a bit too heated of late.

The last statement, the one I was speaking of, was the unbelievable claim that Dispensationalism resembles Gnostacism.
 
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Maybe they thought it was self-evident? All the quotes from the church fathers I've seen are what I'd call Covenant theology, seeing the overall plan of God being to fulfil all promises made to the Jews through Jesus spiritual kingdom, the church. In other words, everything they talked about and all the quotes we do have from the early church fathers are Covenant, and I haven't seen any that are Dispy. Have you? Can you dig up some for us that specifically unpack God's plans for Israel AFTER Jesus?

(Just because they were Premil does not make them Dipsy, ...oops, I meant Dispy).

I will have to ask you to be patient with me. First because I am not well. Second because I have found so much more that I expected to find that it will take some effort to put it together in a logical fashion. And third because finding as much as I have found has convinced me that I need to examine this subject far more extensively.

I had some knowledge that supporting material existed in the old writings, but as I do not give any credence to the notion that there is any kind of authority whatsoever in them, I had for the most part ignored them.

Now that I have actually seen what they said, I know that the claim that they never taught these things is completely incorrect. I still do not credit these documents with any kind of doctrinal authority. But they are indeed authoritative as to the history of when various doctrines began to be taught.

This is significant to me only to the extent that is makes it possible to conclusively prove that allegations that our doctrine is a recent novelty, though widely believed, are simply not correct. I do not, nor will I ever, claim that this proves them correct. It only disproves a widespread attempt to discredit our doctrine.
 
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eclipsenow

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the sad thing is, though, a pre-tribber will first condemn and call another person a heretic or "unsaved", "nonbeliever", "mormon", or "tool of Satan" simply because they don't believe in pre-tribulation... thats personally happened to me many times, here and other places. i personally think pre-tribbers and dispensationalists alike are being led astray, but that doesn't change their salvation until it affects their fruits of their faith.

Kim Riddlebarger explains in a very pained way the names Amils are often called. Apparently some of the Dispy leaders accuse us of being in some kind of Catholic conspiracy. Others think we are in an anti-Semitic, Satanic cult. Nice, ain't it, when I thought all we were doing was reading the bible and letting the NT interpret the old, letting Jesus and the Apostles explain how they fulfilled OT scripture, and letting the clearer sections of Scripture interpret the unclear.
 
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eclipsenow

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I will have to ask you to be patient with me. First because I am not well. Second because I have found so much more that I expected to find that it will take some effort to put it together in a logical fashion. And third because finding as much as I have found has convinced me that I need to examine this subject far more extensively.

I had some knowledge that supporting material existed in the old writings, but as I do not give any credence to the notion that there is any kind of authority whatsoever in them, I had for the most part ignored them.

Now that I have actually seen what they said, I know that the claim that they never taught these things is completely incorrect. I still do not credit these documents with any kind of doctrinal authority. But they are indeed authoritative as to the history of when various doctrines began to be taught.

This is significant to me only to the extent that is makes it possible to conclusively prove that allegations that our doctrine is a recent novelty, though widely believed, are simply not correct. I do not, nor will I ever, claim that this proves them correct. It only disproves an widespread attempt to discredit our doctrine.

I agree with your dethroning of the church fathers. They were no more inspired than I am, but it will be interesting to see what you can dig up. On another note I had a go at the Damascus prophecy in the other thread, but still have a lot of work to do on the rest of Isaiah — and that's before I can get to your questions about Micah and Ezekiel etc. Please also be patient with me.

Why, I detect a group hug! :groupray:
 
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Super Kal

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for the record, I dont see and will never see the early church fathers as scripture nor claim them to be scripture...

but i do see the importance they have on the history of the Church, and the history of doctrine and theology.
thats why i bring it up so much.
and I pray that you get better soon
 
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I have now completed an analysis of the entirety of book five of "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus.

My conclusion is that the system he advances is neither Covenant Theological nor Dispensational. It is a most interesting mixture of both ideas.

I hope to be posting evidence soon.
 
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Biblewriter

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i will agree with you up to a point on that... but i will encourage you to read the Dialog W/ Trypho that Justin Martyr wrote

Thank you. I have read part of it, but intend to read it all.
 
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Run from the lies of Pre-trib rapture.

"[ God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness," Romans 1:18

"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:7-9

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Ephesians 5:6

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" Colossians 3:5-6

This is a fundamental, Biblical truth. Paul understood that the wrath of God is something that is inescapably due, it cannot be prevented from coming, but that it is absolutely reserved for the wicked and unrighteous. Scripture is crystal clear in revealing the end result of salvation in Christ, that it not only reconciles us to God but also exempts us from all wrath.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" Romans 5:8-10

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 thessalonians 5:9

"for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians1:9-10

Scripture itself reveals post-trib as the only true lie, as it tells us God's chosen elect will be subjected to His awesome wrath which scripture identifies incontrovertibly as being reserved for the "sons of disobedience", i.e. the sinful and unrepentant. In regards to this basic theological truth, post-trib theory is in direct contradiction.

Not only that, but there are passages that not only point to pre-trib rapture, but also cause post-trib rapture to be compeltely untenable.

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[k] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[l] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[m] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Revelations 19:13-15

This is the Second Advent that does take place after the tribulation, Christ arrives to both defeat His enemies and realise the Kingdom of God on Earth. But note that He is followed by an army of individuals who are clothed in garments that are "white and clean". Just the word "clean" automatically identifies these people as His church, these are not angelic hosts.


"Reaping the Earth’s Harvest


14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath


17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. "

Revelations 14:14-20

The grapevine is only gathered and thrown into the winepress of God's wrath once the Earth has been "reaped" by Christ. This is not any sort of "entry" or "arrival", we are told that Christ is standing on a cloud while He reaps those who are "His". This is confirmed by what we read in Thessalonians...

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
 
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So many fibs in the Dispensational Pre-Trib Rapture View
*******
Was watching a video exposing Pre-trib. They summed it up very nice in this little expose.
*******
Top 10 Pre-trib Fibs
*******
Fib #1
Jesus comes BEFORE the tribulation.

Scriptures exposes this lie easily.
*******
Matthew 24:29
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun shall be darkened and the moon
shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken.
Let us get another witness; to establish truth.
*******
Mark 13:24
But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
Clearly Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation.
So this pre-trib jargon of Jesus coming before the tribulation is just a ruse of man to deceive the gullible.
This is the falling away.

Please note that I only realized this was taken from a video upon finishing the response, I wrote it addressing you specifically, yet I cannot be sure if you wrote it or simply quoted it. Nevertheless, it is something I do wish to address.

This is just blind fundamentalism on your part, belief in pre/post trib does not affect ones salvation. This is not proof, you are simply assuming the rapture and second coming are one in the same and using this passage as "support", when in reality it doesn't prove exclusively whether it is pre- or post-.

*******
FIB#2
The Rapture is with a Secret coming.

O, it IS, is it?
Revelation 1:17
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY eye shall SEE him, and they which also pierced him: and all
kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Amen.
Secret huh?

Yes, everyone shall see His second Advent, this doesn't disprove if a Rapture will take place beforehand.
*******
Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to
heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
See that? After the tribulation comes the resurrection / rapture.
At the seventh / Last trumpet!

Misappropriation all the way, as this is simply the two prophets being called up by God, this is not evidence whatsoever for the resurrection/rapture of the elect.

Don't give me that faked up Revelation 4:1 spiritualized "Come up hither" as a pre-trib rapture, when the Bible
clearly show the real rapture, "Come up hither" POST-TRIB!
Pre-tribbers, you have been lied to all this time!

Again, you clearly do not know what that portion of scripture is signifying, yet you are passing off this information as the definitive, conclusive truth (which it is not).
*******
Thats not all, no, thats not all.
Here is yet another big FIB.

FIB#3
Jesus comes as a thief to the believers.

The Bible says the exact opposite yet again, ho hum.
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief.
Did you see that?
Do you believe it?
You need to, for it is scripture.

A warning to be prepared for when He does come, plain and simple. Once again misappropriation, as you are trying to pass off evidence that isn't evidence against pre-trib.
*******
FIB#4
The falling away is the rapture.

Falling is the action of being RAISED up in Christ don't you know.
Right, and I have some swamp land to sell you.
Pre-trib indoctrination is all part and parcel of the falling away.

Good indication you don't know how to use scripture properly, as you are condemning those who simply have a different interpretation on eschatology, which does not require any compromise or falling away, aside from simply being what YOU do not believe in. For your information, the falling away signifies those who will fall away from the Faith, I.e. away from the truth of Christ, to other doctrines and/or religions, compromising lifestyles, general spiritual prostitution.
*******
FIB#5
The Pre-Tribulationalist believes that the seven year "tribulation" is the WRATH of God.

They can't seem to learn that Wrath of God is at the last day in the seven Vials of WRATH!
Let us see what scriptures has to say. Why looky here.
*******
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth
and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great WRATH, because he
knoweth he hath but a short time.
Some extra proof for a witness, easy....
*******
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the WRATH of God.
See that? The Wrath of God is AFTER the tribulation.
Can't seem to understand the difference between Satan's Wrath and God's Wrath.
Satan's wrath comes FIRST, then God's wrath at the LAST DAY. Namely the last HOUR!
*******
Yet, another scripture to debunk the fake Pre-trib lies.
Look at this.
Revelation 15:7,8
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,
who liveth for ever and ever.
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power;
and NO MAN was able to ENTER INTO the temple, TILL the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Clearly post-Trib

See, this is a big problem. To someone so vehemently convinced in a certain theological idea, there can be no sense of subjectivity and his disposition begins to color literally everything he reads. Everything automatically becomes evidence for what he believes, this is another example of you presenting "evidence" that isn't evidence. This passage simply tells us for the duration of the vials no man can enter into the temple, this is not evidence debunking pre-trib rapture whatsoever.
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Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials
of the wrath of God upon the earth.
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It does not stop here, they keep fibbing! Look at this shameful one!
FIB#6
The tribulation is a period of seven years.

Is that scriptural and true? NO!..proof...watch this.
*******
Daniel 7:25
How long?
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the SAINTS of the
most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until
A TIME and TIMES and the DIVIDING of TIME.
42 months = seven years to the Pre-tribbers.
All these fibs are catching up and overtaking the gullible.
other scriptures for proof? easy.. Watch this.
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Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the
elect's sake those days SHALL be SHORTENED!
See how scripture backs up scripture?
Another one, look at this confirmation.
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Revelation 11:2,3
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the GENTILES:
and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY and TWO months.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED
and THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth.
*******
The Bible is clear that the time frame is 42 months, 3 1/2 years, NOT seven years.
But there is more.
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Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they shall feed her
there a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and THREESCORE DAYS.
Revelation 12:14
And to the women were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place, where she is nourished for a TIME, and TIMES, and HALF a TIME,
from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given
him to continue FORTY and TWO months!
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See how bad the fibs are from the Pre-trib rapturist?
*******
Here comes yet another desperate fib. Look at this one.

At this point it is clear you are just looking for excuses to call "pre-tribbers" liars and heretics, you're just pitting yourself against them. There are post tribulation proponents who advocate both a 3.5 year and 7 year period. The duration of the tribulation is not relevant to whether pre-trib is true or not.
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FIB#7
The Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4, proving a Pre-trib Rapture.

O, really! Let us go to the scriptures daily to find out to see if these things are so, just like the Bereans.
O,O!Look at these scriptures that expose yet another fib.
*******
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the SAINTS, and to overcome THEM: and
power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
My, my, the scriptures say differently, don't they?
More scripture for to establish a witness.Why looky here; in the book of Revelation AFTER Revelation Chapter 4!

Yes, because there will be no souls saved throughout the tribulation period, despite the fact that God has planned to use two prophets and 144,000 sealed believers to proclaim the gospel throughout this time. And why would God have to arrange this if His Church is on Earth?
*******
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the CHURCHES. I am the root and the
offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The Book of Revelation was written TO the CHURCHES!!!
*******
O NO! There are MORE fibs! Look at this fiasco!
*******
FIB#8
Jesus can come at any moment.

Wow! The brazenness of these Pre-tribbers is eye popping!
Let us always go to the scriptures to prove things.
So....
Why looky here!
Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET!

Wow, the end is not yet, but for some reason the end is going to be how YOU say it is? -->the extent of this "evidence"

Another witness from scripture..
Mark 13:7
And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must
needs be; but the END SHALL NOT BE YET!
Yet another scripture of many more. Watch this.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceave you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there
come a falling away FIRST, AND the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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Here is the biggest lie of them all.
FIB#9
It is the Christians that get removed from the earth.
*******
Hack, cough, spitoowie!
Shall we learn a lesson here? Always choose the word of God over that of man!
So, here we go straight to the Holy Scriptures yet again.
*******
Well, that did not take long; look at this!
Proverbs 10:30
The righteous shall NEVER be removed: but the wicked shall NOT inherit the earth.
See that? also, .... Does Jesus get his prayers answered? Really?
I know his prayers get answered.

Fundamentalist tactic, quote scripture out of context.
*******
John 17:15
I pray NOT that thou shouldest take then OUT of the world, BUT that thou shouldest KEEP them from the evil.

There's the tactic again, you probably can't even begin to understand let alone explain the meaning of this passage.
*******
FIB#10
Christians won't suffer any tribulation.

Matthew 13:21
Yet he hath not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when TRIBULATION or persecution ariseth
because of the word, by and by he is offended.
This verse says to the contrary.
John 16:33

Fundi tactic yet again, tribulation is a given in any one believer's life. You wrongly apply this passage, as the tribulation that is in question is the wrath of God, not being persecuting, losing family/friends, or losing your job due to the cause of Christ.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL
have tribulation: But be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Lots of witnesses of this point in Scripture.
Look at this puppy!
*******
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we
MUST through MUCH tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

You really love your fundi tactic I see, much tribulation in this context =/= wrath of god spoken of in revelation. Read your bible harder and take those blinders off.
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Pre-trib has not one verse to back up the faked up claim of a Pre-Tribulational rapture,
seeing that EVERY scripture on the subject is CLEARLY POST TRIB.
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All of your evidence was either misappropriated, taken out of context, or based on the assumption that pre-trib is false because "you say so". You actually just wasted a whole lot of time doing nothing but scrounging for self affirmation, which is a clear indication that you are biased, as if the way with which you have spoken and handled scripture wasn't pointing to that fact enough.

Let us promote the truth in scriptures filled with love and understanding, and do it in an intelligent manner... and not cling to flagrant, blind, arrogant, biased, baseless interpretations. This is not Biblical at all, it's just a load of garbage in its entirety.
 
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