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10 Top Errors of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by PeterAV, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I agree with you completely. I speak of these things only to disprove the false claim that our doctrine is a modern invention and must therefore be false.

    While it would be quite accurate to say that we have no record of Dispensationalism having ever been formally systematized before 1800, it would be entirely as accurate to say that we have no record of Covenant Theology ever being formally systematized, at least as it exists today, before 1500. And this was at least 700 years after the widespread circulation of the earliest known clear and explicit statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2011
  2. Super Kal

    Super Kal Christ is life

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    let me ask you something:

    this is just one scripture, among many others...
    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    anyone can say what they believe in is taught by the Bible... when they go into the Bible with their own opinion. While exegesis is the #1 way of Bible study, church history is one other use to solidify theology.

    and while biblewriter desperately claims pre-tribulation and dispensationalism is correct, scripture and church history proves him wrong again and again. Some people are so deluded and blinded by this man-made doctrine, they would face the Antichrist himself, and still be convinced that they're still going to be secretly raptured away.
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Except, of course, when history proves the opposite of what you expect. Then you simply deny it.
     
  4. oneofchrists

    oneofchrists Give Me Stength Lord

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    Hey There SuperKal! Even though You failed to ask Me a question I can say that the majority of professed Christians in the world today lack resources other than the Holy Bible...Many even lack a Bible .......Many plainly rely on their Ministers, Priests and friends to share with them the precious Gosple of Jesus Christ, They don't have a vast library of resources to pull from as We do in North America and Europe and Austrailia and a very few other parts of this old globe......They Must pray as We all Should and They must have Faith as we all should and they Must do good to thier neighbor as We all should and Most of all they Must Love God with all their heart as We all should........I am not faulting anyone who looks for a deeper and more meaningful realtionship with Christ , But I got to say sometimes debate can get a little testy and folks nerves get thread bare and egos seem to greatly deflate in the search for the alledged real truth of Scriptures that is not Written in the Good Book plainly in red, black and white............My two cents worth for Ya Kal...God Bless You and all who contribute to or read this post.....Dave
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2011
  5. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Hey Biblewriter, do you want to demonstrate that rather than just assert it? You're close to flaming there mate, and these conversations have been a bit too heated of late.
     
  6. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Maybe they thought it was self-evident? All the quotes from the church fathers I've seen are what I'd call Covenant theology, seeing the overall plan of God being to fulfil all promises made to the Jews through Jesus spiritual kingdom, the church. In other words, everything they talked about and all the quotes we do have from the early church fathers are Covenant, and I haven't seen any that are Dispy. Have you? Can you dig up some for us that specifically unpack God's plans for Israel AFTER Jesus?

    (Just because they were Premil does not make them Dipsy, ...oops, I meant Dispy).
     
  7. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Quoting Isaiah out of context in this way does nothing to prove a Dispensational timeline of the future. It must be put through the lens of the gospel and the way New Testament writers unpacked these matters.


    Except that he said no such thing... the verses below in no way demonstrate what you claim they demonstrate! I just see them as another reference to our salvation in Jesus. There's no real timetable attached to it. Indeed, if anything, these verses show us we WILL NOT know when the Day of the Lord will spring on us like a thief in the night.

    These verses are not at the expense of John 5 but merely complement it. They focus on the believer's forgiveness and salvation, while John 5 (and many other verses) focuses on how Judgement Day is the great separation of believers from unbelievers. But it is all describing the one glorious event, Judgement Day!

    Read it again, and tell me what you see here that indicates otherwise? I don't see a THING that separates this event from John 5, from the Sheep and Goats, from the Wheat and Chaff, etc.

    1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]
     
  8. Super Kal

    Super Kal Christ is life

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    lol, yeah, sorry about that... i was gonna ask something, but decided against it, and forgot to erase it :doh:

    you're absolutely right when in what you say... i first had to drop everything that i was ever taught, and let the Bible speak for itself. After I had a grasping and baby understanding of it, i then went onto other sources outside the Bible. I still use the Bible for my #1 source, and I always will, however even Jehovah's Witness use the Bible for their #1 source... yes, we battle with scripture, however, scripture is not the only thing we can battle with. Yes, debates can get heated... the only reason I'm so against Dispensationalism and pre-tribulation is I used to defend it blindly, because it's so popular, & ppl swallow it up like candy. it's an ear-tickling doctrine, nothing more, created by a man surrounded in false assumptions and incorrect hermeneutics. I can't stand it anymore. I'm not saying those who believe it aren't Christian, but they are wrong in their theology...

    the sad thing is, though, a pre-tribber will first condemn and call another person a heretic or "unsaved", "nonbeliever", "mormon", or "tool of Satan" simply because they don't believe in pre-tribulation... thats personally happened to me many times, here and other places. i personally think pre-tribbers and dispensationalists alike are being led astray, but that doesn't change their salvation until it affects their fruits of their faith.
     
  9. Super Kal

    Super Kal Christ is life

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    the term "Covenant Theology" did not exist until some time during the Protestant Reformation, with Reformers such as John Calvin, John Wesley, etc... however the belief that the Church and Israel are considered as one is Biblically accurate, AND was taught by the early church. You see this in the writings of Aristides, the Letter to Diognetus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, the Epistle of Barnabas, Melito, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian, and the Apostolic Constitutions
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The last statement, the one I was speaking of, was the unbelievable claim that Dispensationalism resembles Gnostacism.
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I will have to ask you to be patient with me. First because I am not well. Second because I have found so much more that I expected to find that it will take some effort to put it together in a logical fashion. And third because finding as much as I have found has convinced me that I need to examine this subject far more extensively.

    I had some knowledge that supporting material existed in the old writings, but as I do not give any credence to the notion that there is any kind of authority whatsoever in them, I had for the most part ignored them.

    Now that I have actually seen what they said, I know that the claim that they never taught these things is completely incorrect. I still do not credit these documents with any kind of doctrinal authority. But they are indeed authoritative as to the history of when various doctrines began to be taught.

    This is significant to me only to the extent that is makes it possible to conclusively prove that allegations that our doctrine is a recent novelty, though widely believed, are simply not correct. I do not, nor will I ever, claim that this proves them correct. It only disproves a widespread attempt to discredit our doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Kim Riddlebarger explains in a very pained way the names Amils are often called. Apparently some of the Dispy leaders accuse us of being in some kind of Catholic conspiracy. Others think we are in an anti-Semitic, Satanic cult. Nice, ain't it, when I thought all we were doing was reading the bible and letting the NT interpret the old, letting Jesus and the Apostles explain how they fulfilled OT scripture, and letting the clearer sections of Scripture interpret the unclear.
     
  13. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    I agree with your dethroning of the church fathers. They were no more inspired than I am, but it will be interesting to see what you can dig up. On another note I had a go at the Damascus prophecy in the other thread, but still have a lot of work to do on the rest of Isaiah — and that's before I can get to your questions about Micah and Ezekiel etc. Please also be patient with me.

    Why, I detect a group hug! :groupray:
     
  14. Super Kal

    Super Kal Christ is life

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    for the record, I dont see and will never see the early church fathers as scripture nor claim them to be scripture...

    but i do see the importance they have on the history of the Church, and the history of doctrine and theology.
    thats why i bring it up so much.
    and I pray that you get better soon
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  15. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    I pray in Jesus name, that God bless you and heal you...:wave:
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I have now completed an analysis of the entirety of book five of "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus.

    My conclusion is that the system he advances is neither Covenant Theological nor Dispensational. It is a most interesting mixture of both ideas.

    I hope to be posting evidence soon.
     
  17. Super Kal

    Super Kal Christ is life

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    i will agree with you up to a point on that... but i will encourage you to read the Dialog W/ Trypho that Justin Martyr wrote
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Thank you. I have read part of it, but intend to read it all.
     
  19. Happy Hearts Club

    Happy Hearts Club Newbie

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    "[ God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness," Romans 1:18

    "But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:7-9

    "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Ephesians 5:6

    "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" Colossians 3:5-6

    This is a fundamental, Biblical truth. Paul understood that the wrath of God is something that is inescapably due, it cannot be prevented from coming, but that it is absolutely reserved for the wicked and unrighteous. Scripture is crystal clear in revealing the end result of salvation in Christ, that it not only reconciles us to God but also exempts us from all wrath.

    "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" Romans 5:8-10

    "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 thessalonians 5:9

    "for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians1:9-10

    Scripture itself reveals post-trib as the only true lie, as it tells us God's chosen elect will be subjected to His awesome wrath which scripture identifies incontrovertibly as being reserved for the "sons of disobedience", i.e. the sinful and unrepentant. In regards to this basic theological truth, post-trib theory is in direct contradiction.

    Not only that, but there are passages that not only point to pre-trib rapture, but also cause post-trib rapture to be compeltely untenable.

    "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[k] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[l] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[m] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Revelations 19:13-15

    This is the Second Advent that does take place after the tribulation, Christ arrives to both defeat His enemies and realise the Kingdom of God on Earth. But note that He is followed by an army of individuals who are clothed in garments that are "white and clean". Just the word "clean" automatically identifies these people as His church, these are not angelic hosts.


    "Reaping the Earth’s Harvest


    14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
    Reaping the Grapes of Wrath


    17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. "

    Revelations 14:14-20

    The grapevine is only gathered and thrown into the winepress of God's wrath once the Earth has been "reaped" by Christ. This is not any sort of "entry" or "arrival", we are told that Christ is standing on a cloud while He reaps those who are "His". This is confirmed by what we read in Thessalonians...

    "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
     
  20. Happy Hearts Club

    Happy Hearts Club Newbie

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    Please note that I only realized this was taken from a video upon finishing the response, I wrote it addressing you specifically, yet I cannot be sure if you wrote it or simply quoted it. Nevertheless, it is something I do wish to address.

    This is just blind fundamentalism on your part, belief in pre/post trib does not affect ones salvation. This is not proof, you are simply assuming the rapture and second coming are one in the same and using this passage as "support", when in reality it doesn't prove exclusively whether it is pre- or post-.

    Yes, everyone shall see His second Advent, this doesn't disprove if a Rapture will take place beforehand.
    Misappropriation all the way, as this is simply the two prophets being called up by God, this is not evidence whatsoever for the resurrection/rapture of the elect.

    Again, you clearly do not know what that portion of scripture is signifying, yet you are passing off this information as the definitive, conclusive truth (which it is not).
    A warning to be prepared for when He does come, plain and simple. Once again misappropriation, as you are trying to pass off evidence that isn't evidence against pre-trib.
    Good indication you don't know how to use scripture properly, as you are condemning those who simply have a different interpretation on eschatology, which does not require any compromise or falling away, aside from simply being what YOU do not believe in. For your information, the falling away signifies those who will fall away from the Faith, I.e. away from the truth of Christ, to other doctrines and/or religions, compromising lifestyles, general spiritual prostitution.
    See, this is a big problem. To someone so vehemently convinced in a certain theological idea, there can be no sense of subjectivity and his disposition begins to color literally everything he reads. Everything automatically becomes evidence for what he believes, this is another example of you presenting "evidence" that isn't evidence. This passage simply tells us for the duration of the vials no man can enter into the temple, this is not evidence debunking pre-trib rapture whatsoever.
    At this point it is clear you are just looking for excuses to call "pre-tribbers" liars and heretics, you're just pitting yourself against them. There are post tribulation proponents who advocate both a 3.5 year and 7 year period. The duration of the tribulation is not relevant to whether pre-trib is true or not.
    Yes, because there will be no souls saved throughout the tribulation period, despite the fact that God has planned to use two prophets and 144,000 sealed believers to proclaim the gospel throughout this time. And why would God have to arrange this if His Church is on Earth?
    Wow, the end is not yet, but for some reason the end is going to be how YOU say it is? -->the extent of this "evidence"

    Fundamentalist tactic, quote scripture out of context.
    There's the tactic again, you probably can't even begin to understand let alone explain the meaning of this passage.
    Fundi tactic yet again, tribulation is a given in any one believer's life. You wrongly apply this passage, as the tribulation that is in question is the wrath of God, not being persecuting, losing family/friends, or losing your job due to the cause of Christ.

    You really love your fundi tactic I see, much tribulation in this context =/= wrath of god spoken of in revelation. Read your bible harder and take those blinders off.
    All of your evidence was either misappropriated, taken out of context, or based on the assumption that pre-trib is false because "you say so". You actually just wasted a whole lot of time doing nothing but scrounging for self affirmation, which is a clear indication that you are biased, as if the way with which you have spoken and handled scripture wasn't pointing to that fact enough.

    Let us promote the truth in scriptures filled with love and understanding, and do it in an intelligent manner... and not cling to flagrant, blind, arrogant, biased, baseless interpretations. This is not Biblical at all, it's just a load of garbage in its entirety.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
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