1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

[ClementofA]

That's from an Epistle (2 Peter) which was written to God's elect alone. He is "patient and long-suffering" toward those who He knows will be His (so that "they" will not perish), not toward those who He already knows never will be!

David, what about Romans 2:

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Because this is all the time each of us is given and, especially, because that's what the Bible tells us .. e.g. Hebrews 9:27.

For my take on this passage:

Is there salvation after death?

Does Hebrews 9:27 refute universalism?

Here again is a reference to believers only as the discipline of the church is only offered to a Christian who has decided to go sinfully rogue (we never turn those who do not believe "over to Satan" for his discipline, 1. because they are ALREADY his and 2. because it is FROM Him that we, at least in part, hope to see them set free ).

Are you of the OSAS school, David? I see this guy involved in some sexually immoral lifestyle (e.g. sex with his mother) as excluding him from the kingdom of God & that the passage implies he is not saved but needs to be & "may be" if he repents (1 Cor.6:9-11). That is, specifically, salvation on the day of the Lord. Thus if one fails to be saved on that "day" it does not rule out the possibility of postmortem salvation for others who will go to "hell" or the LOF.

 

[ClementofA]

That makes what you are saying a bit clearer - what is meant by destruction/hell etc isn’t what I was commenting on, just the reality of our own will, choice and responsibility. The question of how we reject God has nothing to do with maths, but with psychology. Rejection of God leads to an exponential hardening of the heart - the ball is in our court, essentially, although he supplies the grace to carry our decision to choose his way to fruition. What exactly is meant by free will is maybe another discussion but we do have choice, and it is self evident that a creator who gave us choice, allows us choice, having made the consequences of that choice clear.
As to what references to hell actually mean, I don’t think that should drive rather forced interpretations of other passages. The idea that God wills all to be saved therefore all will be saved, whether they want to be or not, is psychologically impossible. It’s something like saying ‘I want my child to eat his greens and grow up to be a Christian’ - you can do what you can to bring about that end, but you can’t make another person do or believe what you want, and neither should you try to.

It may well be that Love Omnipotent grants His created human beings the free will to continue to reject Him & to suffer in Hades & the lake of fire, even for eons, until they finally bow the knee & confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as per (Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Isa. 45:21-25).

 

[Tom 1]

It may well be that Love Omnipotent grants His created human beings the free will to continue to reject Him & to suffer in Hades & the lake of fire, even for eons, until they finally bow the knee & confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as per (Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Isa. 45:21-25).

Interesting idea but to build an argument first you’d have to deal adequately with all of the references that don’t support it. Re. The verses you quoted, especially the last 2, maybe you are taking these too literally - there are lots of examples of references to the whole world, the four corners, every person etc that clearly aren’t meant to be taken to mean exactly that - in OT times for example ‘the whole world’ described a much more limited geographical area than what we now think of as the whole world. If you want to build a convincing argument you’d need to conclusively demonstrate that the passages you are assigning a very literal meaning to were meant to be taken that way.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I believe God wants people to choose Him out of their free will rather than enforced salvation.

We are created in Gods image and I think part of that is wanting to be liked for who we are, not because people have to like us.

 

[discipler7]

Conclusion: All will be saved

.
Are you saying that even ISIS Muslim terrorists and the 911 Al-Qaeda suicide terrorists will be saved.?

 

[discipler7]

It may well be that Love Omnipotent grants His created human beings the free will to continue to reject Him & to suffer in Hades & the lake of fire, even for eons, until they finally bow the knee & confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as per (Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Isa. 45:21-25).

Seems, you are adding to the Book of Revelation.

REVELATION.22: =
A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[discipler7]

Conclusion: All will be saved

.
The difference between the saved and unsaved is that the saved believer will inherit eternal/everlasting life(= die, be resurrected, live with Jesus Christ for a Millennium on a new earth and then enter into the kingdom of heaven...) while the unsaved will not. ...

JOHN.3: = 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 

[discipler7]

Conclusion: All will be saved

It may well be that Love Omnipotent grants His created human beings the free will to continue to reject Him & to suffer in Hades & the lake of fire, even for eons, until they finally bow the knee & confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as per (Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Isa. 45:21-25).

Men have only ONE lifetime opportunity(= maximum 120 years old - GENESIS.6:3) to be saved or not saved.
.
HEBREWS.9: = 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[DavidPT]

It is a good argument for universal reconciliation theology, I must admit.

... I still believe the Bible has the most evidence for conditional immortality, personally (that those who believe will have immortality with God, and those that do not will simply not see life period, but be literally destroyed in Gehenna instead of tortured endlessly), but still, 'can't say I would be sorry to see if universal reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ turns out to be true.

It's not a good argument IMO. It fails to take into account that God has given man the free will to choose Him or to choose the devil, to choose heaven or to choose hell. Not only that, it contradicts Scripture after Scripture if universalism is what the Bible is allegedly teaching. I don't have anything against the idea of universalism. I wish it were so. But according to Scripture, when rightly dividing the Word, universalism can't be Scriptural, because that teaching has God contradicting Himself all over the place in the Bible, thus making God out to be a liar in the process.

 

[Jonathan Leo]

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

False, loads of scriptures teaching many will go to hell and few who find eternal life.

Let’s take the word desire for a moment.
God desires all to be saved doesn’t mean all will
I desire to have any woman I want, money to buy anything I want, and to live until I’m over 150 with perfect health so I can enjoy the money and keep up with all the woman. I then desire to be saved and be Jesus right hand man. Lol
My interpretation of desire is different to English dictionary
Desire = wanting or wishing to obtain something, but not necessarily going to get it

God gave us free will, for God to overrule our free will means we are robots and not made in His image
Our free will is the most important thing we possess and is essential to our salvation. God provided a way, we need to walk that way.
God desires all to be saved, it doesn’t mean He is going to get His way.

 

[Der Alte]

It may well be that Love Omnipotent grants His created human beings the free will to continue to reject Him & to suffer in Hades & the lake of fire, even for eons, until they finally bow the knee & confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as per (Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13; Isa. 45:21-25).

Once upon on a time when I was in the Army I was holding a training trip flare in my hand, I pulled the trip wire with my other hand, the flare ignited. I was holding the body in a safe way it should have burned for a while and I could go about my business. Unfortunately when I pulled the trip wire the burning element popped out of the body and landed on the back of my hand. I instantly had a third degree burn on my hand. Worst pain I ever felt.
.....When someone is thrown in to a lake of fire they will experience that pain over their entire body. Keep that in mind.
.....The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of every 100 prisoners more than 66 will return to prison. The corrective element does not seem to be correcting. And many of them blame everybody else for their predicament, the judge, jury, lawyers, witnesses etc. and some even try to take vengeance on those they blame.
.....Now let us consider those same miscreants when God tosses them into the LOF where they remain for a greater or lesser period experiencing hideous pain. Should we suppose that all those miscreants will be filled with warm fuzzies and love if/when God takes them out of the LOF and accepts them into His kingdom? Or is it more likely that they will act like most criminal act in his world.

 

[ClementofA]

Once upon on a time when I was in the Army I was holding a training trip flare in my hand, I pulled the trip wire with my other hand, the flare ignited. I was holding the body in a safe way it should have burned for a while and I could go about my business. Unfortunately when I pulled the trip wire the burning element popped out of the body and landed on the back of my hand. I instantly had a third degree burn on my hand. Worst pain I ever felt.
.....When someone is thrown in to a lake of fire they will experience that pain over their entire body. Keep that in mind.
.....The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of every 100 prisoners more than 66 will return to prison. The corrective element does not seem to be correcting. And many of them blame everybody else for their predicament, the judge, jury, lawyers, witnesses etc. and some even try to take vengeance on those they blame.
.....Now let us consider those same miscreants when God tosses them into the LOF where they remain for a greater or lesser period experiencing hideous pain. Should we suppose that all those miscreants will be filled with warm fuzzies and love if/when God takes them out of the LOF and accepts them into His kingdom? Or is it more likely that they will act like most criminal act in his world.

Extrabiblical (e.g. logic, human reasoning) points were addressed in other threads appropriate for such, for example:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[DavidPT]

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

You don't have to do anything to be saved, all men are saved, regardless, so don't bother trying to get saved, you already are saved, says the Universalists.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house, says the Bible.

 

[Der Alte]

Extrabiblical (e.g. logic, human reasoning) points were addressed in other threads appropriate for such, for example:...

A broad brush response which does not address the specifics in my post. I notice you reject "logic, human reasoning", which OBTW just happens to contradict you, and substitute your own "logic, human reasoning" For example your big one "Does omnipotent love stop at the grave?" Please show me one verse where God or Jesus is speaking which states that God's omnipotent love extends past the grave and that all mankind will be saved no matter what. One verse not 3-4 jammed together.
.....Here is a short version of my post. The recidivism rate in US prisons is 66+ %. Of 100 people sent to prison more than 66 will return. The corrective factor is not correcting. Many ex-prisoners do not take responsibility for their actions but blame others, e.g. judges, juries, witnesses etc. and even try to retaliate. Will those people who now reject and even hate God suddenly be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God after God has punished them in fire for any period of time? Or will 66+% of them revert to type as they do now? Why or why not?

 

[hedrick]

I agree that ECT is an apologetic problem. I'm not convinced that the NT teaches it. But 1 Tim 2:4 isn't a reasonable basis for universalism. My understanding of the passage is that we should pray for leaders so that they can be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That doesn't seem consistent with everyone being saved anyway.

 

[Shempster]

I agree that ECT is an apologetic problem. I'm not convinced that the NT teaches it. But 1 Tim 2:4 isn't a reasonable basis for universalism. My understanding of the passage is that we should pray for leaders so that they can be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That doesn't seem consistent with everyone being saved anyway.

Though I lean towards universalism and from my understanding, it does not mean everyone in this life will be saved and obtain eternal life in the near future.
There will only be a few that get that. In my understanding of it, this life is a test to weed out the elect from the non-elect. So it would be true that most do not inherit eternal life.
It appears to me that "hell" or Gehenna, or whatever it is is a punitive, corrective thing. The message of Christian Universalism is that all will eventually be restored to God at some point in the ages to come.

 

[Shempster]

I agree that ECT is an apologetic problem. I'm not convinced that the NT teaches it. But 1 Tim 2:4 isn't a reasonable basis for universalism. My understanding of the passage is that we should pray for leaders so that they can be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That doesn't seem consistent with everyone being saved anyway.

Though I lean towards universalism and from my understanding, it does not mean everyone in this life will be saved and obtain eternal life in the near future.
There will only be a few that get that. In my understanding of it, this life is a test to weed out the elect from the non-elect. So it would be true that most do not inherit eternal life in the immediate future.
It appears to me that "hell" or Gehenna, or whatever it is is a punitive, corrective thing. The message of Christian Universalism is that all will eventually be restored to God at some point in the ages to come.

 

[DavidPT]

The message of Christian Universalism is that all will eventually be restored to God at some point in the ages to come.

How does someone such as satan, the beast and false prophet, etc, fit in with this Universalist position? They, too, are cast into the LOF. Are they, too, restored to God eventually at some point in the ages to come?

 

[ClementofA]

How does someone such as satan, the beast and false prophet, etc, fit in with this Universalist position? They, too, are cast into the LOF. Are they, too, restored to God eventually at some point in the ages to come?

Universalism is "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved" (Webster's Dictionary). It therefore says nothing about non human entities, e.g. Satan.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

I agree that ECT is an apologetic problem. I'm not convinced that the NT teaches it. But 1 Tim 2:4 isn't a reasonable basis for universalism.

Do you agree that God does all that He desires:

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6). Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).
Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6). "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

One of His desires is that all be saved (1 Tim.2:4). Therefore if God does ALL He desires, and saving all is one of those desires, then all will be saved.

My understanding of the passage is that we should pray for leaders so that they can be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That doesn't seem consistent with everyone being saved anyway.

Why do you think prayer for others salvation is not "consistent with everyone being saved"? Does Love Omnipotent not have all eternity to get everyone saved? Though i expect a mere few million eons of millenniums should be way more than enough to get the job done. Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Is anything to difficult for Him? Is Christ's death & resurrection impotent to save anyone? Is anyone unreachable by Omnipotence?

 

[Shempster]

How does someone such as satan, the beast and false prophet, etc, fit in with this Universalist position? They, too, are cast into the LOF. Are they, too, restored to God eventually at some point in the ages to come?

I do not know for sure. But knowing the nature and character of God I would say the answer would be YES. Satan and the evil spirits are also destined for the lake of fire when the wicked are cast into it.

My opinion is that the "lake of fire" is a metaphor for being in the presence of God. In his presence, their whole lives flash before them.
Every deed, every thought and intention is exposed.
Did you ever get caught red-handed for stealing or lying as a child?
Do you remember the shame you felt when being confronted with the truth?
Instead of being confronted with one act, in the LOF, you will be confronted with every evil thought and deed you ever did all at once.
Now imagine every war, killing, rape, robbery, beating, torture, ect. that Satan was responsible for.
I am not suggesting he would repent, but what if...?