1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

[St_Worm2]

Hi Clement, while Piper's article is certainly interesting (as they almost always are), surely you know that he is ANYTHING but a Universalist (for instance, one of his "Desiring God" ministry's shortest published articles is called, The Fairy Tale of Universalism).

Look, I believe that God has actually given us free will (whether you believe He has or not) and as such, you are free to believe whatever you like .. whether you are wrong or not So I leave you to your believing whatever it is you want to believe before God, along with this one hope, that you will constantly reconsider what it is that you are teaching to those who hate God/love their sinful lifestyles, and the effect that it could have on them eternally if you are wrong.

--David

 

[ClementofA]

So I leave you to your believing whatever it is you want to believe before God, along with this one hope, that you will constantly reconsider what it is that you are teaching to those who hate God/love their sinful lifestyles, and the effect that it could have on them eternally if you are wrong.

Considering it is the doctrines of endless torments & annihilation that keeps many sinners from accepting Christ, who would otherwise believe in Him if presented with a truly just, righteous & merciful God, Love Omnipotent, as in universalism, perhaps you might someday in this world consider reconsidering your position in that regard. By the grace of the Lord.

 

[St_Worm2]

No, not unless He returns and rewrites/corrects a great deal of what is presently written in the Bible. And since I believe that He is the same yesterday, today and forever, I'm sure that's at least one thing that's never going to happen

 

[1stcenturylady]

Considering it is the doctrines of endless torments & annihilation that keeps many sinners from accepting Christ, who would otherwise believe in Him if presented with a truly just, righteous & merciful God, Love Omnipotent, as in universalism, perhaps you might someday in this world consider reconsidering your position in that regard. By the grace of the Lord.

I know you believe a practicing sinner is forgiven and saved, even without repentance, but that is not truth.

God is sovereign. But He made man in Their image. We have free will, and are sovereign over our own life. You forget that God is not just loving and merciful, He is also just and full of wrath against the unholy.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

 

[ClementofA]

No, not unless He returns and rewrites/corrects a great deal of what is presently written in the Bible. And since I believe that He is the same yesterday, today and forever, I'm sure that's at least one thing that's never going to happen

You wouldn't be the first person who's changed their opinion about a Bible doctrine. Perhaps most Christians have changed one, if not several, or many, over the years & decades of their honest, objective & open minded prayerful study of the Scriptures.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

I know you believe a practicing sinner is forgiven and saved, even without repentance, but that is not truth.

No. Incorrect. Whatever gave you that idea. Here's an intro to the basics:


Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

 

[Tom 1]

As someone said:

"Note that this is Jesus talking, not God. And we know that the will of Jesus is indeed sometimes not borne out. For example, in Matthew 26:39, we see an absolute comparison of the wills (thelo) of Jesus and God. The will of God is what prevails."

"And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'" (Mt.26:39)

So nothing you have stated refutes the argument of the OP:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

That’s a pretty weak argument. What about the other verse, from Ezekiel? What do you think is being said there?

 

[St_Worm2]

You wouldn't be the first person who's changed their opinion about a Bible doctrine. Perhaps most Christians have changed one, if not several, or many, over the years & decades of their honest, objective & open minded prayerful study of the Scriptures.

Hi Clement, after "believing" that I was a Christian for the first 30 years of my life, I finally came to realize that I never was (on the day that I finally became one more than 31 years ago now). Since then I have tried to keep an open mind about most things, and I've tried to continually and carefully study of the Scriptures to see what they say/what new things I can glean from them each day. Had I not done so, I'm sure that I could have easily been persuaded to accept either the teaching of Universalism, or at the very least Annihilationism, because who, in their humanity w/o the Scriptures, could come to believe such a thing is true, much less wish for someone to suffer in conscious torment for the rest of eternity?

It is because of very careful studies of the Scriptures that I believe what I do. I'm not saying that a change of heart can be completely ruled out in the future, but so far, I seen nothing in any of the Universalist arguments that I've encountered regularly, here and elsewhere over the last 30+ years, that would cause me to consider doing so.

I understand why you want to believe that the doctrine of Universalism is true (because in many ways I'd like to believe that it's true as well), the problem for me is, the word of God keeps getting in my way.

Yours and His,
David

 

[ClementofA]

That’s a pretty weak argument. What about the other verse, from Ezekiel? What do you think is being said there?

I don't see how it refutes this:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

 

[ClementofA]

Look, I believe that God has actually given us free will (whether you believe He has or not) and as such, you are free to believe whatever you like .. whether you are wrong or not

Freewill is not an issue with the argument of the OP. Love Omnipotent can continue to seek the salvation of every lost sinner till they are saved. It is mathematically impossible anyone could reject Him an infinite number of times, by their continual free will choices, forever.

 

[St_Worm2]

...the doctrines of endless torments .. keeps many sinners from accepting Christ...

One last thing, I think you've actually got that backwards, because it has always been my experience that the teaching of a Hell which is eternal is the very thing that causes many (perhaps most) to consider becoming a Christian in the first place (so that they may be saved from living out eternity in such a horrid place as that).

The problem is (as A. W. Pink states so eloquently below), God's salvation is principally a salvation from our sin/sinful behavior or lifestyle in the here and now, which 'results' in the added bonus of being saved from God's eternal wrath in Hell/the Lake of Fire in the life to come. But when push comes to shove, many/most have no real interest in leaving their sinful, worldly existence that they think they love so much right now, they just don't want to end up in Hell in the age to come.

Unfortunately for them, that's not the way it works

--David

 

[Tom 1]

I don't see how it refutes this:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

That isn’t an argument, it’s just a simplistic notion based on a misunderstanding of what is actually being said. It is indeed interesting and deeply moving that Jesus struggles with submission to his father’s will in Gethsemane, however for that to be relevant to your assertion regarding Jesus’s words here:
Matthew 23:37 ESV; "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

You’d need to show that Jesus was expressing a will that work is somehow different from the Father’s will, which isn’t the case. Jesus states his wish that Jerusalem would respond to him and be saved, but that they, the people of Jerusalem are unwilling. In what way does your comment about Jesus/God the Father’s will apply to this?

In the passage from Ezekiel, God states that he takes no pleasure in the death of ‘the wicked’. His will is that they should cease their ‘wickedness’ so that they can find life. Nevertheless, if we persist in sin, we do die - whether that is physical death as may be what is being referred to in Ezekiel, or spiritual death. God does not will that we should turn against him and so be destroyed, but he created us with the ability to make that choice for ourselves, and with choice come consequences, as in:
Galatians 6:7-8 NIV; Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[ClementofA]

One last thing, I think you've actually got that backwards, because it has always been my experience that the teaching of a Hell which is eternal is the very thing that causes many (perhaps most) to consider becoming a Christian in the first place (so that they may be saved from living out eternity in such a horrid place as that).

The doctrine of Christian Universalism also advocates the Biblical "Hell". But a just "Hell". Many unbelievers refuse to consider the claims of a Christ who tortures anyone for ever and ever and ever. That's a long time for the sins of a few days, years or decades. Which may be largely in ignorance or of never having heard the gospel.

The problem is (as A. W. Pink states so eloquently below), God's salvation is principally a salvation from our sin/sinful behavior or lifestyle in the here and now, which 'results' in the added bonus of being saved from God's eternal wrath in Hell/the Lake of Fire in the life to come. But when push comes to shove, many/most have no real interest in leaving their sinful, worldly existence that they think they love so much right now, they just don't want to end up in Hell in the age to come.

If everyone went to heaven at death, or there was no afterlife for anyone, would you still live a Christian cross carrying crucified persecuted tortured to death life in this world?

 

[St_Worm2]

Freewill is not an issue with the argument of the OP. Love Omnipotent can continue to seek the salvation of every lost sinner till they are saved. It is mathematically impossible anyone could reject Him an infinite number of times, by their continual free will choices, forever.

So you believe God will compel those who hate Him with every fiber of their being to finally give up and give in because He, in essence, beats them into submission by outlasting them?

How does that famous verse go again, "We love, not because He first loved us, but because He kept after us for so long that we couldn't stand it anymore"

 

[ClementofA]

So you believe God will compel those who hate Him with every fiber of their being to finally give up and give in because He, in essence, beats them into submission by outlasting them?

How does that famous verse go again, "We love, not because He first loved us, but because He kept after us for so long that we couldn't stand it anymore"

I don't know if anyone hates God with "every fiber of their being". Do you have Scripture for that.

Please note i said nothing about God "beat[ing] (anyone) into submission by outlasting them":

"Freewill is not an issue with the argument of the OP. Love Omnipotent can continue to seek the salvation of every lost sinner till they are saved. It is mathematically impossible anyone could reject Him an infinite number of times, by their continual free will choices, forever."

Although Scripture certainly states God is patient & long suffering towards us. Why should His love expire like a carton of milk forever at a certain point of time, e.g. death?

Even when He decides to punish it is for the purpose of salvation (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5).

 

[ClementofA]

That isn’t an argument, it’s just a simplistic notion based on a misunderstanding of what is actually being said. It is indeed interesting and deeply moving that Jesus struggles with submission to his father’s will in Gethsemane, however for that to be relevant to your assertion regarding Jesus’s words here:
Matthew 23:37 ESV; "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

You’d need to show that Jesus was expressing a will that somehow different from the Father’s will, which isn’t the case. Jesus states his wish that Jerusalem would respond to him and be saved, but that they, the people of Jerusalem are unwilling. In what way does your comment about Jesus/God the Father’s will apply to this?

As already posted re Mt.23:37:

"I looked at that very verse in preparing the syllogism. It seems to show that the will or desire (thelo) of the speaker is indeed not always accomplished. Thus, does the definition of thelo, as a determination, not hold here? To answer this question, note that this is Jesus talking, not God. And we know that the will of Jesus is indeed sometimes not borne out. For example, in Matthew 26:39, we see an absolute comparison of the wills (thelo) of Jesus and God. The will of God is what prevails."

"And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'" (Mt.26:39)

"Thus, it still seems true that when THELO is used for the will or desire of GOD, it is a determination. It is something that will occur."

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

In the passage from Ezekiel, God states that he takes no pleasure in the death of ‘their wicked’. His will is that they should cease their ‘wickedness’ so that they can find life. Nevertheless, if we persist in sin, we do die - whether that is physical death as may be what is being referred to in Ezekiel, or spiritual death. God does not will that we should turn against him and so be destroyed, but he created us with the ability to make that choice for ourselves, and with choice come consequences, as in:
Galatians 6:7-8 NIV; Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

The Ezekiel passage does not refer to endless death or postmortem consequences. In the context of the OT the punishment of death usually refers to one's life in this world being cut short.

Galatians 6:7-8 likewise does not address the above stated syllogism directly. On an endless punishment interpretation of the verse it would result in a conflict with the syllogism, & a contradiction in the Scriptures. On a universalist interpretation it harmonizes with the above syllogism. Compare, for example, a universalist interpretation of:

Matthew 10:28
Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

 

[Tom 1]

As already posted re Mt.23:37:

"I looked at that very verse in preparing the syllogism. It seems to show that the will or desire (thelo) of the speaker is indeed not always accomplished. Thus, does the definition of thelo, as a determination, not hold here? To answer this question, note that this is Jesus talking, not God. And we know that the will of Jesus is indeed sometimes not borne out. For example, in Matthew 26:39, we see an absolute comparison of the wills (thelo) of Jesus and God. The will of God is what prevails."

"And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'" (Mt.26:39)

"Thus, it still seems true that when THELO is used for the will or desire of GOD, it is a determination. It is something that will occur."

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).





The Ezekiel passage does not refer to endless death or postmortem consequences. In the context of the OT the punishment of death usually refers to one's life in this world being cut short.

Galatians 6:7-8 likewise does not address the above stated syllogism directly. On an endless punishment interpretation of the verse it would result in a conflict with the syllogism, & a contradiction in the Scriptures. On a universalist interpretation it harmonizes with the above syllogism. Compare, for example, a universalist interpretation of:

Matthew 10:28
Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

That makes what you are saying a bit clearer - what is meant by destruction/hell etc isn’t what I was commenting on, just the reality of our own will, choice and responsibility. The question of how we reject God has nothing to do with maths, but with psychology. Rejection of God leads to an exponential hardening of the heart - the ball is in our court, essentially, although he supplies the grace to carry our decision to choose his way to fruition. What exactly is meant by free will is maybe another discussion but we do have choice, and it is self evident that a creator who gave us choice, allows us choice, having made the consequences of that choice clear.
As to what references to hell actually mean, I don’t think that should drive rather forced interpretations of other passages. The idea that God wills all to be saved therefore all will be saved, whether they want to be or not, is psychologically impossible. It’s something like saying ‘I want my child to eat his greens and grow up to be a Christian’ - you can do what you can to bring about that end, but you can’t make another person do or believe what you want, and neither should you try to.

 

[nChrist]

Universal salvation is false - not even a decent myth. The saved go to heaven and the lost go to hell for eternity.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[St_Worm2]

I don't know if anyone hates God with "every fiber of their being". Do you have Scripture for that.

I was employing a bit of hyperbole perhaps Nevertheless (w/o looking into it right now), this passage seems as good as any to start with:

Psalm 68
1 Let God arise, let His enemies be scattered,
And let those who hate Him flee before Him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
As wax melts before the fire,
So let the wicked perish before God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them exult before God;
Yes, let them rejoice with gladness.​

Please note i said nothing about God "beat[ing] (anyone) into submission by outlasting them":

My post was intended to be humorous (notice the little emoticons), and I had a point to make as well

Although Scripture certainly states God is patient & long suffering towards us.

That's from an Epistle (2 Peter) which was written to God's elect alone. He is "patient and long-suffering" toward those who He knows will be His (so that "they" will not perish), not toward those who He already knows never will be!

Why should His love expire like a carton of milk forever at a certain point of time, e.g. death?

Because this is all the time each of us is given and, especially, because that's what the Bible tells us .. e.g. Hebrews 9:27.

Even when He decides to punish it is for the purpose of salvation (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5).

Here again is a reference to believers only as the discipline of the church is only offered to a Christian who has decided to go sinfully rogue (we never turn those who do not believe "over to Satan" for his discipline, 1. because they are ALREADY his and 2. because it is FROM Him that we, at least in part, hope to see them set free ).

The very same One who saved us in the first place also promised to see us safely through this life to Glory .. Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25, so we turn erring believers, who steadfastly refuse the church's lighter disciplines, away from the protection that the church provides and over to a far harsher discipline from this world's "prince" .. so that they will return to us and be saved in the end.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Deadworm]

Clement,

You forget that evangelicals claim that God is omnipotent, infinitely patient, and all-wise, but upon further consideration they actually believe God lacks all 3 qualities. Once people reject Him in this life, God doesn't know how to give them another chance after death. Why not? Because He is just not resourceful enough to give them this new opportunity. You see, Clement, when Jesus preaches to the wicked "spirits -in "prison" (= Hell--1 Peter 3:19; 4:6), Jesus never considered the possibility that some of them might respond, and so, He forgot to give the altar call! And when, Christ anticipates every knee on earth, in heaven, and in Hell bowing after death and confessing Him as Lord, He's sorta stuck with all those lost souls in heaven {Philippians 2:9-11). What Paul doesn't tell you here is that there is a trap door under all these lost souls. So after Jesus gets the worship and confession of His Lordship, He sneakily pulls the lever and all those lost souls fall screaming back to Hell. And when Paul approves of the Corinthian practice of proxy baptism for the unsaved death as part of the process by which God becomes "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28-29), this practice freaks Jesus out, and so, He sees to it that this proxy baptism is never again mentioned in the New Testament in the hopes that Christians will forget away it. I hope that helps you, Clement.