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Featured 1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    True or false?

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
     
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  2. LionL

    LionL Believer in God, doubter of religion

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    Sounds like a sensible interpretation to me.
     
  3. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    "Desire" and "wills" are two different word meanings just like "yes" and "maybe".

    To place a sample verse down that would best fit this is Ezekiel 33:11

    God does not want people to die due to their transgression and desires they follow His will, but people have free will of choice and will choose either to follow God's will or not. Children are a perfect example. You teach them to do the right way, they don't always choose to. Adults do this too only its worse since they are held accountable.

    Yes God can do what He wants, but He laid down a set of stable commands we are to follow, the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

    I believe your premise 2 is far off topic and does not have anything to do with this.

    False. Just the meaning of the words placed in context says it all. "Desire" to be saved and "will" be saved change the whole meaning.

    The people in the bible that are described as "saved" are those who obey the gospel.

    John 14:15 and 15:14

    Hear the word Rom 10:17
    Believe the word Heb 11:6
    Confess Acts 17:30-31
    repent Luke 13:3
    Be baptized Mark 16:15-16
    remain faithful Rev 2:10

    The rest are not saved 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
    Hebrews 6:4 and 10:26-27
    Matthew 7:21-23
    and much more.

    Great questions to discuss by the way.
     
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  4. nChrist

    nChrist AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith Supporter

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    False. Here's a better and more accurate translation of the portion of Scripture you posted:

    1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NKJV)
    3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. This doesn't hint that he will force men to be saved. Obviously - all men have not and will not be saved. Great hosts are lost and will remain lost after they die.
     
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  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    θέλω [thelo] "desires" - 1 to will, have in mind, intend. 1A to be resolved or determined, to purpose. 1B to desire, to wish.

    I think if v4 said "God compels all men to be saved", you'd have something, but St. Paul would have used a very different Greek word, ἀναγκάζω [anagkazo] or perhaps ἑλκύω [helkuo], if that was the case.

    Likewise, God doesn't want/desire any of us to sin. He also commanded everyone, everywhere to repent.

    For whatever reason however, while He clearly purposed/intended/desired/wished and even commanded that certain things happen, He apparently felt that leaving our free will intact was more important than getting everything from us that He wished for or desired.

    Yours and His,
    David
     
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  6. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth. Supporter

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    It is a good argument for universal reconciliation theology, I must admit.

    ... I still believe the Bible has the most evidence for conditional immortality, personally (that those who believe will have immortality with God, and those that do not will simply not see life period, but be literally destroyed in Gehenna instead of tortured endlessly), but still, 'can't say I would be sorry to see if universal reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ turns out to be true.
     
  7. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    The answer is: no. As no one has been, will be, nor ever need to be "saved".

    "Saved" is just misguided theology complete with a "Gospel" started by a guy named Martin Luther. It never existed before the late 1590's! How were people "saved" before that. How was the apostle Paul "saved"(who called his entire book of Romans "his Gospel"--euaggelion: well/beneficial -message)? Theophilus "saved"? How were the Jews "saved"? How was Moses "saved"?

    The Greek verb sOzO(usually in it's passive voice form--the action is happening to you: sOtia) translated "saved", means: to deliver in a very general sense. The Greek noun sOtEria translated "salvation" means: deliverance in a very general sense.

    Now, that general meaning: deliver, rescue, make whole, keep safe and sound, etc, everyone needs every moment of everyday! Not Martin Luther's, or anyone's "soteriology".

    I HATE the question: "how do I know if I'm saved?"

    The bible is about life in the here and now not the transliteration of "salvation" from the French word "salvation" which is transliterated from the Latin word "salvationem". Notice they transliterated into nothingness and never translated it for you?

    I'm sorry, I don't speak French.
    Now it is an "ecclesiastical(church only)" word
    given an ecclesiastical meaning but only since ML.
     
  8. R. Hartono

    R. Hartono Well-Known Member

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    God desired everybody to be saved but He gives freedom to mankind and Adam n Eve rebelled.
     
  9. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    Not when put in a wider context - e.g.
    “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?”
    ‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:23‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    Ezekiel 18:23 ESV; Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God , and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

    God takes no pleasure in the death of ‘the wicked’, and wishes/desires that they would turn to him instead, but that doesn’t prevent a bad outcome when they don’t.

    And -
    Matthew 23:37 ESV; "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

    Clearly Jesus wants to save all Jerusalem, but can do nothing to save people from their own will to destruction if they persist in it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
    God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
     
  11. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 25:31-46

    31
    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
     
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  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As someone said:

    "Note that this is Jesus talking, not God. And we know that the will of Jesus is indeed sometimes not borne out. For example, in Matthew 26:39, we see an absolute comparison of the wills (thelo) of Jesus and God. The will of God is what prevails."

    "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'" (Mt.26:39)

    So nothing you have stated refutes the argument of the OP:

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing there refutes the OP, which doesn't deny that people can sin or reject God on the way to all being eventually saved:

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
     
  14. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    OK Clement: tell me you didn't see that coming!
    Obviously you asked a loaded question as you can see from the answers.
    For those who hold to Universal Reconciliation the answer is TRUE.
    For those who hold to the the traditional view that almost everyone goes to hell then it would be FALSE.
    So if it is false, then God does not get what he desires. But Satan does. God does not go after every last lamb because Satan took them all. God might be considered victorious, but only with the tiny little remnant he gets to have.
    Satan gets most all the marbles so to speak.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems to me that you missed the logic of the argument:

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That passage does not directly address or refute the argument in the OP. If that were a correct translation it suggests a contradiction with the OP, & within Scripture, which you did not solve. A universalist may solve it as follows:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  17. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi Clement, your 2nd premise does not follow logically, which is clear because God doesn't get everything that He desires (for the very same reason that we don't), because some of the things we (both) desire on the one hand conflict with things we want/desire on the other.

    For instance, you may absolutely LOVE banana splits, so much so that you'd like to have one everyday for both lunch and dinner, but you also LOVE fitting in your pants. Sadly, we do not always get EVERYTHING that we want, just what we desire the most at any given moment (unless acted upon by a third party which, of course, is NEVER a problem for the Almighty).

    Here's an interesting passage, because it deals with the most frequently asked question of pastors/priests, "how can I figure out what God's will is for my life", so this is a great place to start to answer that question because the Bible doesn't speak in those exact terms very often (as I'm sure you know).

    1 Thessalonians 4
    3 This is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
    4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
    5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.

    This passage makes clear what God's will/desire is for each one of us. Off hand, would you say that He has gotten all that He desired or not?

    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David

    Matthew 5
    27 You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;
    28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word used in 1 Thess.4:3 is not the Greek word THELO of 1 Tim.2:4 etc. According to the following comments the different Greek word used in 1 Thess.4:3 refers in that context to a commandment of God, not something that is a determined desire of His (as with THELO):

    "Some have rejected the conclusion of this syllogism by contending that God has two wills, one akin to a determination but another to a commandment. They contend that God’s will or desire that all be saved is not something that God determines to happen but is instead more of a commandment that can be defied. Thus, they say, this argument does not necessarily hold.

    "John Piper has written about the subject here. The Greek word for will or desire in verses cited by Piper to support his case is thelema. That word has very different meanings. It can mean “determine,” in which case, if God determines it, it will happen. Humans are powerless to change whatever God determines to happen. But it can also mean “command.” Consequently, if it means “command,” what is commanded by God may not happen, for humans can and do freely choose to ignore commandments. So, here we have different interpretations, even opposing ones, depending on which definition is used: a determination is not a commandment.

    "To support his case, Piper's points out Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven," in which will, translated from thelema, seems to mean “determine” and 1 Peter 4:2, "so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God," in which will, translated from thelema, seems to mean “command.”

    "There is a serious problem in rejecting the conclusion of the syllogism based on Piper’s logic that God’s will or desire does not necessarily mean that all will be saved. That problem stems from failing to observe the original Greek wording in the particular verses supporting the syllogism premises above. These verses do not rely on the word thelema that Piper uses to help establish the idea that God has two wills, but instead on the word thelo. Thelo does not have disparate definitions, as does thelema. The definition of thelo, especially when it refers to God, means “to sovereignly decide a matter” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament). Thus, in this case, it does not refer to a commandment or anything else that can be defied.

    "But actually, one does not need to consult a theological dictionary to discern that the meaning of thelo when referring to God is a determination, not a commandment. One need refer only to the above Isaiah verse in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, or the Septuagint: “It [my word] will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”

    "When thelo is the underlying word for will or desire, as it is in the verses supporting the syllogism premises, whatever God desires, He accomplishes. It is a determination. Thus, there is no rational basis to reject the conclusion of the syllogism--that all will be saved--in the language of the verses supporting the premises."


    ---------------------------



    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    True or false?

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
     
  19. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    The Bride of Christ will be without spot or wrinkle. Only those filled with the Spirit of God who have repented of ALL sin, who do NOT walk in the flesh but in the Spirit - will be saved.

    There will be no practicing sinners in heaven. Sorry.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one suggested otherwise.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
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