1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

ClementofA

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You don't have to do anything to be saved, all men are saved, regardless, so don't bother trying to get saved, you already are saved, says the Universalists.

I've read many comments by Christians who advocate universalism on these forums. None have ever said what you attribute to them. Here's the ABC's of universalism for those who are misinformed on the subject:

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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God gave us free will, for God to overrule our free will means we are robots and not made in His image
Our free will is the most important thing we possess and is essential to our salvation. God provided a way, we need to walk that way.
God desires all to be saved, it doesn’t mean He is going to get His way.

Does universalism rule out human libertarian free will? Certainly not. God may keep after the lost until He finds the last one (Lk.15). He has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever. So the existence of free will does not refute the OP:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
 
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ClementofA

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But according to Scripture, when rightly dividing the Word, universalism can't be Scriptural, because that teaching has God contradicting Himself all over the place in the Bible, thus making God out to be a liar in the process.

That's the larger issue: universalists have dozens of Scripture passages they interpret to be supporting their view & anti-universalists likewise. So how to best reconcile all these passages. As you say, rightly divide.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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discipler7

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One of His desires is that all be saved (1 Tim.2:4). Therefore if God does ALL He desires, and saving all is one of those desires, then all will be saved.
MATTHEW.7: =
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

MATTHEW.19: =
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
 
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Jonathan Leo

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Does universalism rule out human libertarian free will? Certainly not. God may keep after the lost until He finds the last one (Lk.15). He has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever. So the existence of free will does not refute the OP:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
Sorry now but if God will eventually save everybody, why does He bother to tell people in His word (Bible) that many will be sent to hell for eternity??
All will be saved is a doctrine of demons that allows anybody to live how they want and still get to heaven.
It’s not far off another doctrine of devils in the Catholic Church. You might have heard about it. Purgatory. It states that you spend your time there working off your sins and in the end you get to heaven.
The Bible clearly states that lives will be lost in Hell forever. Why can’t people see that?
 
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Jonathan Leo

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Does universalism rule out human libertarian free will? Certainly not. God may keep after the lost until He finds the last one (Lk.15). He has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever. So the existence of free will does not refute the OP:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
Sorry now but if God will eventually save everybody, why does He bother to tell people in His word (Bible) that many will be sent to hell for eternity??
All will be saved is a doctrine of demons that allows anybody to live how they want and still get to heaven.
It’s not far off another doctrine of devils in the Catholic Church. You might have heard about it. Purgatory. It states that you spend your time there working off your sins and in the end you get to heaven.
The Bible clearly states that lives will be lost in Hell forever. Why can’t people see that?
 
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Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

And apparently it pleases Him to give eternal life (not same as salvation, forgiveness of sins) only for righteous:


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mat. 25:46
 
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DavidPT

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I've read many comments by Christians who advocate universalism on these forums. None have ever said what you attribute to them. Here's the ABC's of universalism for those who are misinformed on the subject:

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

I'm not claiming anyone has come out and said it like that, but that it's what this doctrine is saying. How could it not be? If everyone is saved eventually, regardless, why bother trying to get saved at all? Why not just live a fun life instead, full of sin and wickedness, because in the end, that person, too, will be restored to God eventually? This doctrine basically says one can do whatever they want to do in this life, good or bad, and that it's not going to matter in the end because you will eventually be restored to God, regardless. This doctrine says go ahead and molest children, go ahead and be a serial killer, go ahead and continue in homosexuality, etc, because in the end it doesn't matter that you did all of these things habitually, never repenting, never stopping doing these things , you are going to be restored to God, regardless.

In another post I indicated I had nothing against the idea of Universalism. That was before I started thinking through it deeper, such as in this post. Maybe I do have something against the idea of Universalism after all because God most likely does, such as what I submitted above.
 
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Shempster

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MATTHEW.7: =
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

MATTHEW.19: =
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Please don't mind me butting in here, but those passages are speaking about THIS LIFE and THE AGE TO COME. Yes it is true only a few will inherit eternal life in the age to come. But where does the bible say "that's it"? No more ages? It doesn't say there is only one more age. It only mentions the age to come and it is not everlasting. It might be Aionious (age-during) but not one single, everlasting age.
A point to make here would be when Satan and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. In the Greek it basically says that they will be tested in the crucible for ages and ages. Right there, the bible claims the future to be divided into many more ages.
Also, consider "the wages of sin is death". That is death in the age to come. A ceasing to exist....annihilation-ism, if you wish. And at the resurrection of the dead they will rise again and that begins the next age.
I think the time when "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" is speaking about the end of the last age. God has plenty of time to correct and restore anyone and he won't stop til he restores the very last sheep. IMO of course :)
 
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anna ~ grace

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Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

True or false?

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

Summa Theologica XP Q[99] Of God's Mercy And Justice Towards The Damned

I have found me this helpful in unpacking both arguments, and logically making sense out of the UR theory.

Thomas Aquinas was an awesome theologian. His insights and thoughts are worth studying.
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA

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discipler7

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But where does the bible say "that's it"? No more ages? It doesn't say there is only one more age.
2TIMOTHY.3: =
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
 
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Shempster

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2TIMOTHY.3: =
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
I think the "last days" term is referring to the end of this current age, nothing more.
 
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mkgal1

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DavidPT said:
You don't have to do anything to be saved, all men are saved, regardless, so don't bother trying to get saved, you already are saved, says the Universalists.

I've read many comments by Christians who advocate universalism on these forums. None have ever said what you attribute to them. Here's the ABC's of universalism for those who are misinformed on the subject:

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

I just wanted to add that people may be really surprised to learn that some of us that believe in Universal Reconciliation are probably more zealous about sin than your average Christian. What I mean by that is....I, personally, don't believe that I am exempt from God's purging fire. I believe my sin is just as offensive as any one else's. When we read in Rev that there will be "no more sorrow...no more tears" then sin has to be eradicated forever in order for that to happen (and that would include ALL our sin).​
 
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discipler7

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Conclusion: All will be saved
.
2THESSALONIANS.2: =
The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _


The rationalization for Universal Salvation or Universalism is mostly given by unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers (= the unrighteous), eg by practicing homosexuals who falsely believe that they will still be saved from hell.(cf; the Word of God at 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11 and REVELATION.22:12-15 say otherwise)

Universalists are similar to unbelieving atheists, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, etc.
 
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mkgal1

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The rationalization for Universal Salvation or Universalism is mostly given by unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers (= the unrighteous), eg by practicing homosexuals who falsely believe that they will still be saved from hell.(cf; the Word of God at 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11 and REVELATION.22:12-15 say otherwise)

Universalists are similar to unbelieving atheists, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, etc.
I guess pride and bearing false witness are now somehow "righteous"?

You're off on who (typically) advocates for Universal Reconciliation (apokatastasis). It's those of us who believe the message of God to humanity is that He is love and in Him there is NO darkness (Just as 1st John 1:5 says). We believe in a justice that is restorative.

To genuinely educate one's self on who advocates for Universal Reconciliation (apokatastasis) I'd recommend this book:

The belief in universal salvation is as old as Christianity itself. In this extensive work of scholarly literature Dr. Ilaria Ramelli goes into detail with the classical doctrine of universal restitution (apokatastasis) as it is found from the New Testament until the middle ages.

“The doctrine of apokatastasis, as is found, from the New Testament to Eriugena, in many Christian texts and Patristic authors, is a Christian doctrine and is grounded in Christ. This Christocentrical characterization is especially evident in Bardaisan, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius, and Eriugena. Indeed, the Christian doctrine of apokatastasis is based on the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ, and on God’s being the supreme Good. It is also founded upon God’s grace, which will “bestow mercy upon all,” and the divine will—which these Patristic authors saw as revealed by Scripture—“that all humans be saved and reach the knowledge of Truth.” ~mercyuponall.apophasis.dk
 
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discipler7

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I guess pride and bearing false witness are now somehow "righteous"?
.
REVELATION.20 & 21 =
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
.
.
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” .......

The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
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