To all Christian Members: Have you studied the Koran and the teachings of Islam?

Well, I don't dispense with the so-called tampering "theory". Heck, the history of the OT is clearly riddled with editing and revising. The only thing blatantly obvious is that such a theory is an ad hoc determination.

The problem really comes in when the Qu'ran ratifies the Torah - which Torah? The one that's "tampered" with? Or does the Qu'ran mean the "Bible" was tampered with ? Well, a Roman Catholic would admit that it was - hence the protestant version of 66 books. Or maybe it means that the "Gospel" was tampered with? Which of the four? or the Gospels? or the whole NT? See, there is a referent problem.....

Mephster said:

Well, I don't dispense with the so-called tampering "theory". Heck, the history of the OT is clearly riddled with editing and revising. The only thing blatantly obvious is that such a theory is an ad hoc determination.

The problem really comes in when the Qu'ran ratifies the Torah - which Torah? The one that's "tampered" with? Or does the Qu'ran mean the "Bible" was tampered with ? Well, a Roman Catholic would admit that it was - hence the protestant version of 66 books. Or maybe it means that the "Gospel" was tampered with? Which of the four? or the Gospels? or the whole NT? See, there is a referent problem.....

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Aaaah i see your dilemma and i think i have an answer.

The Qur'an confirms that there have been messengers and books sent to every nation on earth. the most important of these happened in the middle east, in Abraham's lineage.

The Torah and Gospel it confirms are the originals, untampered ones that were revealed to Moses and Jesus. The OT is what is left from the original Torah. The Gospel or "Injeel" in arabic is a revelation given to Jesus to bring back the Torah to its original content, hence why the rabbis of his day saw him as a threat. WOuld you want your privileges taken away by a "herectic", as they saw Jesus?

Every prophet/messenger was bringing new ideas to stagnant societies that got lost along the way in their own rituals and through generations of changing ideas. At a time when writing was lacking, this is normal. Few poeple held onto the Scriptures and used them to gain power in this world.

So to judge, the Qur'an tells its followers to use it as the "Criterion", which is another name for that book (Furkan in arabic). Whenever the Torah and Gospels agree with the Qur'an (which occurs ALOT), than those parts are untampered. Whenever there is contradiction, there is a problem. And coincidentally, these are the parts on which there is most disagreement within Christianity or Judaism about.

hope i shed some light.

PS: none of the prophets brought a "new" religion per se. They all brought the same message to mankind. "Worship the One God and do good". Each prophet that came after Abraham was trying to revive the original pure faith of Abraham, which was distorted after generations of superstitious belief and personal interest, etc etc

Yeah, I'm pretty aware of most of that; you stated it pretty well, though.

Although, not to be a problem, but according to various Islamic scholars I've talked to, there doesn't seem to be much exact agreement on the "tampered parts"... that's an enigma I keep plodding away on.

I also am hammering away on whether Islam is 'inclusive' or 'exclusive.' If the only injunction is "Worship the 1 God and do good" - this seems a bit empty. Islam is, indeed, a "sola scriptura" religion- thoroughy scripturally based. So, Islam seems inclusive. Yet there are many texts, particularly in the 5th Surah that seem to bespeak Islam as a very exclusive religion.

And!

I have been wrestling with the conception of an "unbeliever" strictly as the Qu'ran would state it. Sometimes it seems to imply Christians are unbelievers... sometimes it seems that unbelievers are those who forsake Islam. And I'm wrestling with how the "veiled" verses play a role in the Last Day and the Judgment of the other religions.

*L* Well, I guess I shouldn't get started with the questions and thoughts I have regarding this!

I have also studied the Qu'ran and the hadith, I find myself more of a shi'ite when it comes to the hadith, I take 'em with a large salt lick!

Kiwimac

For the tampered parts, as i said, we can't pinpoint them and say "ahh, this is wrong", we can just compare to what was revealed in the Qur'an and say "ok, this is something to look at".

I'd like to think of Islam as VERY inclusive. It has very specific rules on how to deal with with non-muslims. A brief glance at the history of the many Muslim empires shows a great air of tolerance, espeically towards Christians and Jews. Back in those days, 7th->19th century, in Muslim lands non-muslims were allowed to live, practice their own faith and be jduged by their own laws. They only had to pay a small head tax and were protected from outside threat, persecution and the likes. This is historic fact. Maemonedes (sp?) was such a Jewish scholar who lived under the protective policies of the Muslim empire of Spain.

So, yes...in the Qur'an, the Poeple of the Book (Christians and Jews) are referred to many more times in merciful/protective connotations than agressive ones. The verses that contain agressive tones were revealed at a time of hardship for the fledgling Muslim community. God guided them according to his Inifinite Wisdom and there is purpose in that.

But in general, despite the shortcomings that the Qur'an ascribes to the followers of Moses and Christ, it does instruct Muslims to be part of the same family. And this was applied for centuries.

But like i always say, Islam is no longer practiced in our day, it is purely given lip service. So you can't judge current situation to be true Islam.

Worship the One God and do good is basically it. Those things are enough to win you salvation. The only sin that God does not forgive is to associate others with him. So pagans and polytheists are definetly excluded.

kiwimac said:

I have also studied the Qu'ran and the hadith, I find myself more of a shi'ite when it comes to the hadith, I take 'em with a large salt lick!

Kiwimac

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hehehe Hadith should only be considered when they agree with what is in the Qur'an. Sunni or Shi'a though, the difference is merely political. The split occured over who should lead the fledgling muslim community after the prophet's passing away. But in creed, there is no difference.

Unlike in Christianity where Catholics and Protestants (and the other denominations) have important Theological differences.

mo.mentum said:

The Qur'an confirms that there have been messengers and books sent to every nation on earth. the most important of these happened in the middle east, in Abraham's lineage.

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What makes one messanger and book more important than the other?

mo.mentum said:

The Torah and Gospel it confirms are the originals, untampered ones that were revealed to Moses and Jesus. The OT is what is left from the original Torah. The Gospel or "Injeel" in arabic is a revelation given to Jesus to bring back the Torah to its original content, hence why the rabbis of his day saw him as a threat. WOuld you want your privileges taken away by a "herectic", as they saw Jesus?

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So the Koran says the Gospel isn't the "Good News" of Jesus? Also, why would the Gospel be revealed to Jesus?

mo.mentum said:

So to judge, the Qur'an tells its followers to use it as the "Criterion", which is another name for that book (Furkan in arabic). Whenever the Torah and Gospels agree with the Qur'an (which occurs ALOT), than those parts are untampered. Whenever there is contradiction, there is a problem. And coincidentally, these are the parts on which there is most disagreement within Christianity or Judaism about.

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So basically one is to use the Bible to prove the Koran, and the Koran to disprove the Bible?

am going to have to agree with vaj you must derive some pleasure from being condescending to make remarks like "but then I do things you wouldn't have time for." You are making a judgement of my character based on one sentence I wrote on a message board.

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I'm afraid it was based on your overall attitude. You well deserve this comment because you transparently carry on about being "open minded" while, as I suspected, you yourself are not actively seeking. I've been doing this a long time and am pretty good at spotting this kind of hypocrisy. You can give me your wide ranging reading list and prove me wrong of course.

Since you picked on organized religion to follow I would have said you were the one who cared more about what your friends think.

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No, I lost my friends when I became a Christian, and most of my family as well.

Do you think you would be a Christian if you had been born in Iran? China? India? Japan

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No, I wouldn't be anything. I became a Christian for entirely different reasons than religious people pick a religion. I became a Christian because I knew I could do nothing for God at all. No other religion would accept me on such unconditional terms or offers remotely the same sort of grace. I am the antithesis of a religious person, but you'd have to take Zen course to understand I think.

"The strength of sin is the law"

When you can explain this comment by Paul, and Romans 6, you and I can have an intelligent conversation I'm sure.

Rad

radorth said:

I'm afraid it was based on your overall attitude. You well deserve this comment because you transparently carry on about being "open minded" while, as I suspected, you yourself are not actively seeking. I've been doing this a long time and am pretty good at spotting this kind of hypocrisy. You can give me your wide ranging reading list and prove me wrong of course.

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I could list a bunch of fiction novels I read for pleasure but that would be pointless. Of course I am not open-minded no human is. I resist things that contradict my opinion with all my heart. But the trick is that I realize I am a complete hypocrit and consciously work against it whenever I can. Over the years I have had to make quite a few changes in my belief structure based on the "facts" as I saw them.
Namely my switch back to agnosticism from Christianity (pretty easy since I was scared into it in the first place). From pro-choice to a more neutral stance. From far left democrat to moderate. Alot of these choices I still see the effects of in my beliefs since much of my base opinions still illogically follow them.

No, I lost my friends when I became a Christian, and most of my family as well.

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It appears I judged you unfairly, I am sorry. Most of the Christians I have met that had converted from something else are usually in an area with a large Christian population and became active members of the community.

No, I wouldn't be anything. I became a Christian for entirely different reasons than religious people pick a religion. I became a Christian because I knew I could do nothing for God at all. No other religion would accept me on such unconditional terms or offers remotely the same sort of grace. I am the antithesis of a religious person, but you'd have to take Zen course to understand I think.

"The strength of sin is the law"

When you can explain this comment by Paul, and Romans 6, you and I can have an intelligent conversation I'm sure.

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Well then I am afraid you are not going to be able to let yourself have an intelligent conversation with me. I don't believe in sin, or even right and wrong for that matter. I don't see why I should be abliged to make a guess at your interpretation of a comment anyway. I am not one to think there is one true interpretation of the Bible.

mo.mentum said:

Worship the One God and do good is basically it. Those things are enough to win you salvation. The only sin that God does not forgive is to associate others with him. So pagans and polytheists are definetly excluded.

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In conclusion, then, Jews and Christians who "do good" are assured of salvation.

The problem I see with this, is that if we draw this out further, there is no necessity in being any one of the three religions - Jewish, Christian, Muslim. As long as one worships Allah/Yahweh/I AM.... and does good deeds (and believes in the Last Day), there is salvation for all.

It seems, therefore, more accurate to say that one should select a scripture to follow (Torah, Gospel, Qu'ran) and then simply follow that book. The main problem here is that there really is no compelling reason that a person would choose one over the other.

Mephster said:

In conclusion, then, Jews and Christians who "do good" are assured of salvation.

The problem I see with this, is that if we draw this out further, there is no necessity in being any one of the three religions - Jewish, Christian, Muslim. As long as one worships Allah/Yahweh/I AM.... and does good deeds (and believes in the Last Day), there is salvation for all.

It seems, therefore, more accurate to say that one should select a scripture to follow (Torah, Gospel, Qu'ran) and then simply follow that book. The main problem here is that there really is no compelling reason that a person would choose one over the other.

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Precisely. Would a fair and just God condemn His creatures to Hellfire eventhough they believed in Him and did good? Doesn't make sense. Religion is a technicality. Submission to His Will is the goal, not what book you read.

"There can be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands clear from error" Qur'an 2:256

"And you shall know the Truth; and the Truth shall set you free!"
John 8:32

And how/by what... does one know God's Will? In order to submit to it, it seems that one must know what "it" demands.....

We say: (1.) worship God; (2.) do good; (3.) Last Day... But how do we know these three injunctions? Or are we assured of them because of their commonality in all of the 3 major world religions? Anyway, I guess I think that religious diversity and problems of pluralism end when it reaches the points we've been delineating. Besides which, when it is said "worship God" - we need to define 'worship'.... because that would make the difference between receiving the Eucharist, making a pilgrimmage to Mecca and circunambulating, and/or keeping the Sabbath. What is God's will? Of course, the answer will derive from Scripture.. . . . . . .

I know that I seem to jump around and I admit that I'm sort of thinking out loud, but anyone that has any input is welcome to respond. (I have already abused and badgered everyone I know with these discussions! )

Mephster said:

And how/by what... does one know God's Will? In order to submit to it, it seems that one must know what "it" demands.....

We say: (1.) worship God; (2.) do good; (3.) Last Day... But how do we know these three injunctions? Or are we assured of them because of their commonality in all of the 3 major world religions? Anyway, I guess I think that religious diversity and problems of pluralism end when it reaches the points we've been delineating. Besides which, when it is said "worship God" - we need to define 'worship'.... because that would make the difference between receiving the Eucharist, making a pilgrimmage to Mecca and circunambulating, and/or keeping the Sabbath. What is God's will? Of course, the answer will derive from Scripture.. . . . . . .

I know that I seem to jump around and I admit that I'm sort of thinking out loud, but anyone that has any input is welcome to respond. (I have already abused and badgered everyone I know with these discussions! )

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I just want to clear something up here incase you are being mislead.

In Christianity you cannot just worship God.....well I guess you could but it would be in vain.

There is a thing called the sin nature that seperates us from the father and without accepting Jesus Christ and his redeeming act, you are still seperated from the father and a slave to sin.

Muslims and Christianity are not as similar as many would like you to believe. Muslims totally dismiss what Christ did for us, they actually believe the crucifiction and resurrection never even happened.

If Islam is the way to God what was the purpose of Jesus Christ and him crucified? Why all the scripture in the old Testament predicting his coming and what his coming would mean?

In Christianity TRUTH is Jesus Christ, "I am the truth, the light, and the way". Truth is not Islam to a Christian and it can never be for the simple reason I already stated.

In Christianity (mainline) it seems that you could, indeed just worship God, do good, and maintain the Judgment Day.

Cp. Philip Quinn "Towards Thinner Theologies"

Well put tigersnare! Without being strident, you summed it up very well.
tulc

It appears I judged you unfairly, I am sorry. Most of the Christians I have met that had converted from something else are usually in an area with a large Christian population and became active members of the community.

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Apology accepted. Thank you. I've become accustomed to such sweeping assumptions, after making 5000+ posts on various sites.

Well then I am afraid you are not going to be able to let yourself have an intelligent conversation with me. I don't believe in sin, or even right and wrong for that matter.

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No big surprise there.

I don't see why I should be abliged to make a guess at your interpretation of a comment anyway. I am not one to think there is one true interpretation of the Bible.

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I'm pointing out an extraordinary verse which appears in no other religious writing, nor does anything like it. Actually there are many more such verses which make the NT totally unique, but you don't seem much interested in them as your worldview hinges on Christianity being a me-too religion, and Christ another me-too prophet. When you start looking for real, perhaps you'll recall our conversation.

I really don't care about winning an argument so much as just vindicating the truth and knocking down arguments based on ignorance.

Rad

I'm not entirely sure that verse is quite so unique......

tigersnare said:

In Christianity you cannot just worship God.....well I guess you could but it would be in vain.

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Oh? Is your God so unjust that we would refuse people's good deeds and devotion to Him simply on the fact that they do not accept Christ as their only saviour?

tigersnare said:

There is a thing called the sin nature that seperates us from the father and without accepting Jesus Christ and his redeeming act, you are still seperated from the father and a slave to sin.

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Yes we are sinful by nature, God created us weak. But were our sins to reach the sky and we were to ask forgiveness, He will forgive. You are born a slave to God, and become a slave to sin by the ideas and societies that can affect you.

tigersnare said:

Muslims and Christianity are not as similar as many would like you to believe. Muslims totally dismiss what Christ did for us, they actually believe the crucifiction and resurrection never even happened.

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Muslims don't dismiss Christ. They believe in him and his message to mankind. To them Christ is still alive and will be returned to mankind in the Second Coming. The Jews don't believe in Christ at all and in fact think of him as a heretic or a rebel. Muslims at least acknowledge his prophethood and holiness.

tigersnare said:

If Islam is the way to God what was the purpose of Jesus Christ and him crucified? Why all the scripture in the old Testament predicting his coming and what his coming would mean?

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Of course OT predicted him, just as it predicted many others. Christ had a purpose and that is to spread the Word of God. And he will return in the End Times to save all those who believe in God. But some of the verses that speak of Christ, also speak of another "unlettered" prophet. Every prophet was sent to his own people and had a purpose. Islam sees all monotheistic religions as a mosaic of the same Words, spread by many of God's servants.

tigersnare said:

Truth is not Islam to a Christian and it can never be for the simple reason I already stated.

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Well to Muslim, Christianity does have Truth. Nice to know you see it as a one way street when OT speaks so much about an arabian prophet:

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad

Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.
Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the "mighty" men of Ke'dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned -to Islam.

Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God's promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled (Genesis 21:13, 18)

In Matthew 21:19-21, Jesus spoke of the fruitless fig tree (A Biblical symbol of prophetic heritage) to be cleared after being given a last chance of three years (the duration of Jesus' ministry) to give fruit. In a later verse in the same chapter, Jesus said: "Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof" (Matthew 21:43). That nation of Ishmael's descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 21:42) which was victorious against all super-powers of its time as prophecied by Jesus: "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:44).

I got more

mo.mentum said:

Oh? Is your God so unjust that we would refuse people's good deeds and devotion to Him simply on the fact that they do not accept Christ as their only saviour?

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Unjust? No dude you're missing it here. My God is the only Just thing that exist. He sent his son (God in Human form) to teach us, guide us, and redeem us. If you deny this, you are denying my God, he therefore is just by punishing the unbelievers accordlingly, according to my scripture.

mo.mentum said:

Yes we are sinful by nature, God created us weak. But were our sins to reach the sky and we were to ask forgiveness, He will forgive. You are born a slave to God, and become a slave to sin by the ideas and societies that can affect you.

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No God created us perfect, then Adam sinned and the rest of the human race after him inherited the sin nature. And the only way we can have forgivness is by the sacrafice of Jesus Christ the perfect, spotless lamb of God. If you read the old Testament you will see that the Isrealites were required to sacrafice the very best of their livestock to God. Well that is not good enough for total redeemtion. Only Christ's perfect sacrafice was sufficient to bring us back to God.

mo.mentum said:

Muslims don't dismiss Christ. They believe in him and his message to mankind. To them Christ is still alive and will be returned to mankind in the Second Coming. The Jews don't believe in Christ at all and in fact think of him as a heretic or a rebel. Muslims at least acknowledge his prophethood and holiness.

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I did not say you dismiss Christ, I said you dismiss what Christ did for us. Of course you believe in him, you take the parts you want from him that help build a case for the legitamacy of your religion and you throw out the huge amount of his words that explain who he was and why he came. No one had the authority that Christ had, and therefore no one was as good of a teacher and there will never be a greater one. So it would makde perfect since for some other religion to use his teachings. But You do deny his divinity, and according to my scripture there is no difference in denying his divinity and denying his existance.

It's so easy to use his teachings for your benefit and deny his idenity.
Almost a win win situation....unfortunatly my God disagrees, and so did Jesus in his teachings.

mo.mentum said:

Of course OT predicted him, just as it predicted many others. Christ had a purpose and that is to spread the Word of God. And he will return in the End Times to save all those who believe in God. But some of the verses that speak of Christ, also speak of another "unlettered" prophet. Every prophet was sent to his own people and had a purpose. Islam sees all monotheistic religions as a mosaic of the same Words, spread by many of God's servants.

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No he will return and save all those who have found salvation in Him.

Yes I understand that Islam would like many to think that Jesus and Mohammed were on the same page, and like wise, there is very minor differences between Christianity and Islam. Sorry, I, and most Christians won't, and never will buy this.

mo.mentum said:

I got more

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Haha, I have to say that was quite a spin on those scriptures. Never seen it interpreted that way....actually never even remotly close.

So yeah to me you got more of nothing becuase you still don't understand why Christ came to this earth.

mo.mentum wrote: (#78)
"I got more"

I'm sure you do! The problem lies in that we'll never accept that Muhammad (who was an interesting man, worthy of study IMHO) wasn't an eyewitness, and those who were don't agree with what he said. So I guess it gets down again to
"who do we believe?" I am in the midst of about 15 other books at this time but the one I'm trying to read next is on how Islam views Jesus, taken from various times and places in history and written by a wide variety of people. I'm trying and get to it in the next week or so if I can (life has a way of interfering with my reading!)
Anyway! Have a great day both of you!
tulc(reading about Elizabeth the first right now)